[astrostar59]

I listen to my LCD-4 predominantly with my Chord Dave and it drives it just fine...terrific pairing as a matter of fact....hugo 2 not quite as good

Indeed, I heard that combo while chatting with Rob Watts himself, and I agree it seemed to have enough juice. I think it was on +4 on the readout, so +4 above line out level? BUT the LCD4 did sound a bit more alive on the GSX MK2 on the head-amp stand with my same 3 test tracks. The demo's were 15 minutes apart so I am pretty confident it was accurate. Seemed to have more dynamic contrasts? The DAC on the head-amp stand was the Holo Spring DAC level 3. But demos that short and at shows are not always rock solid, so built that into my view. Also I am assuming at Can-Jam 2017 both those stands had the same 200 ohm LCD4. Head-amps probably was as they are a dealer, not sure about the Chord stand.

 

[jlbrach]

Gee,my hearing must be different than yours....i have the dave/blu2 combo and i find i listen to my LCD-4 at anywhere between -20 to -5...i have never yet been in the plus zone and the Blu apparently requires 3 decibels more volume than the Dave by itself

 

[astrostar59]

Thats odd. maybe I read it wrong, I was concentrating more on what was coming into my ears LOL.

 

[Ross]

Indeed, I heard that combo while chatting with Rob Watts himself, and I agree it seemed to have enough juice. I think it was on +4 on the readout, so +4 above line out level? BUT the LCD4 did sound a bit more alive on the GSX MK2 on the head-amp stand with my same 3 test tracks. The demo's were 15 minutes apart so I am pretty confident it was accurate. Seemed to have more dynamic contrasts? The DAC on the head-amp stand was the Holo Spring DAC level 3. But demos that short and at shows are not always rock solid, so built that into my view. Also I am assuming at Can-Jam 2017 both those stands had the same 200 ohm LCD4. Head-amps probably was as they are a dealer, not sure about the Chord stand.

I have been going back and forth between my LCD4s plugged directly into the DAVE/Blu2 against running them balanced from my GS-X Mk 2, connected to the XLR outputs of the DAVE. While the DAVE does have sufficient power to drive the LCD4 to satisfactory volume levels, it does sound a little anemic. On balance, while there is a slight loss of transparency, and the single ended outputs of the DAVE do sound marginally better than the XLR outputs, I find that I prefer the LCD4s balanced from the GS-X Mk 2, which gives it a fuller, deeper, more authoritative sound. My Focal Utopias, on the other hand, are perfect directly from the headphone output of the DAVE. I'm now just wondering whether the WA5 LE would be even better than the GS-X Mk 2 with the LCD4s.

 

[astrostar59]

Ahh, maybe I wasn't imagining it then? I have a new DAC incoming with a monster 10v output off it's tube stage. I am thinking it may have enough juice to drive the LCd4s through the passive pot in my Metrum Aurix. I'll report back in 3 or 4 weeks if it does.

 

[jrfmd]

error

 

[jrfmd]

I find I like the balanced outputs on the dave even though it is not designed to drive any significant load from these plugs. This sound better than the mono output of the dave to my ears and, even with the LCD4s the volume is never set above -13db. The dave doesn't get hot under this load and, although I have been warned, I use the balanced out plugs from the dave for both utopias and lcd4s all the time. I've been doing this about 6 months now and no problems yet--but we'll see if I earn a hefty repair bill in the end.
BTW, I rarely, if ever, listen more that two hours at a time and maybe this is why I have had no trouble so far.

JRF

 

[Ross]

I find I like the balanced outputs on the dave even though it is not designed to drive any significant load from these plugs. This sound better than the mono output of the dave to my ears and, even with the LCD4s the volume is never set above -13db. The dave doesn't get hot under this load and, although I have been warned, I use the balanced out plugs from the dave for both utopias and lcd4s all the time. I've been doing this about 6 months now and no problems yet--but we'll see if I earn a hefty repair bill in the end.

To clarify, you connect your headphones directly to the XLR outputs of the DAVE? Interesting, I have never thought to try this.

I find the XLR outputs to sound a bit cleaner, but there is less 3D depth, and the single ended outputs sound tonally richer.

 

[x RELIC x]

To clarify, you connect your headphones directly to the XLR outputs of the DAVE? Interesting, I have never thought to try this.

I find the XLR outputs to sound a bit cleaner, but there is less 3D depth, and the single ended outputs sound tonally richer.

Probably because the XLR output is Current limited to 0.05mA which is insufficient for proper Current delivery for the LCD-4. The XLR on the DAVE is really only meant to feed an external amp, but to each their own I guess.

 

[Ross]

Probably because the XLR output is Current limited to 0.05mA which is insufficient for proper Current delivery for the LCD-4. The XLR on the DAVE is really only meant to feed an external amp, but to each their own I guess.

I was really talking about the comparison of the XLR and single ended outputs into an amp, because I haven't tried using headphones directly from the DAVE's XLRs. I connected both sets of outputs to the SE and XLR inputs of my EAR 912 preamp and switched between them. That was when I determined that the SE output was marginally better, as Rob has indicated, due to the additional op amps in the balanced output.

 

[x RELIC x]

I was really talking about the comparison of the XLR and single ended outputs into an amp, because I haven't tried using headphones directly from the DAVE's XLRs. I connected both sets of outputs to the SE and XLR inputs of my EAR 912 preamp and switched between them. That was when I determined that the SE output was marginally better, as Rob has indicated, due to the additional op amps in the balanced output.

You were asking the OP if they connected directly to the headphones, which is what / who I was really referring to.

 

[Ross]

Okay, sorry I misunderstood.

 

[x RELIC x]

Okay, sorry I misunderstood.

No worries, it got confusing and I should have quoted the OP. I’m interested in the response regardless.

 

[astrostar59]

I also wondered if you could run a decent HP out of the RCA or balanced outputs. I think the issue in that case may be the relevant DAC is expecting a load at the pre or power amplifier around the standard 50K impedance. If we present it with only 200 ohms it is like opening the flood gates, the current will get too much demand and basically run out of steam mighty quickly.

If we wanted to drive the 200ohms LCD4 correctly direct, we would probably need an output impedance from the DAC line out of less than 20 ohms, and tons of current (plus the on DAC volume control). Also in impedance matching if we get it way off we will hear phase shifts and big FR swings, unusually less bass and reduced dynamics.

In a passive pre-amp situation which is sort of similar in a way, if well designed and having constant impedance, then it is possible in theory to drive a power amp direct, miss out a pre-amp. But all this relies on a beefy gain stage in the DAC, and possibly output transformers to drive the next stage effectively. Anyway, my thoughts, I don't pretend to know all the tech, only verbatim what I have found or been told by other circuit designers. Thoughts?

TBH as DACs evolve to our needs and wants, a top gain stage with enough power to drive hungry Planars is going to be very attractive to this niche market. It means less boxes, less cables and less mess. I have a new DAC incoming with a tubed gain stage and 10v output at 50 ohms. I am hoping it has enough beef to drive me LCD4 via a passive constant impedance pot (Metrum Aurix). If this works out, I can thus miss out the need for another expensive stage. The gain stage in the DAC is of very high quality, so in my mind, why add another device if there is enough gain already?

 

[astrostar59]

LCD4 and v Stax 007 and Carbon amp. Interesting review by the mastering engineer Bob Katz.
On the subject for me as I have just sold out my 009 and 007s with Carbon amp to go 'simpler system' of the Audeze. I have the LCD2-C and next week the LCD4 arrives. But I concur with some of his observations.

My own observations so far on the comparisons (more in a few weeks when I run in the LCD4s) are the differences are a bit bigger than he is stating IMO. Respect he is an audio engineer, but we have different ears and tastes of course. My 007A did not have the port mod, which is supposed to even out the bass bump. My short pre-review is:

1. LCD2-C has a more 3D soundstage and seems wider as well
2. Midrange on the LCD2-C is slightly warmer and more 'glued' to the bass
3. The treble response on the LCD2-C is slightly lower in level to the 007A
4. Bass power and the way it presents itself (incredibly deep and linear with texture) has more impact than on the 007A and goes lower
5. On superb recording the differences are closer between the 2 HPs, but on material of dubious quality (old or badly recorded Redbook) the more forgiving nature of the LCD-C wins here. It is not just the way it handles leading edges and the treble in the Audeze, the upper midrange clings on and keeps it all smooth somehow.

Point 5 is the main reason I have changed brands. I found over time I was wringing the neck out of my 'top and well recorded tracks' and avoiding everything else. This ratio was quite high, about 90% were becoming a problem for me. Not that I couldn't enjoy that material, it was just I never felt relaxed listing to it, or was convinced by the presentation of it, and the enjoyment of it was not high.

Possibly Bob could have had more time of varied quality material to test the forgiving (or not) aspects a bit more.

The 007A is the most forgiving Stax HP I have heard to date, the Lambda range (quite a lot of the old range, LNS etc) the 507s, the 009s. I didn't like my first 007 MK2 version at all, quite a disappointment for me. The 007A 2015 model was much better, but IMO still needs a big amp to wake it up from it's slumber. It has slightly more clues and more obvious micro detail and 'plankton' in the mix v the LCD2. As to wether this is accurate or ideal the jury is out for me. I find with the Stax presentation it is very different to the Audeze, as though it is a more floating and ethereal presentation, and the leading edges of notes are brought forward, probably a bit too much for my personal tastes. The Audeze has more body and weight (the bass which we all know about) but also in the midrange which gives for example, female vocals a very realistic tone and mass, not majoring on the pitch of it.

Both systems are fantastic TBH in different ways. Which one is deemed the better is probably objective to the listener. The Audeze, once readjusted to the different presentation seems to me to be right on my reality spot. Bob's go-to phone seems to be the 007, the LCD4 was a newcomer in for that testing. I wonder if he lived with to for a few more weeks his view may be different? i.e see the difference between them as being wider. No idea about the inconsistencies in the batch of LCD4s at IF. Another layer in the mix and one that confuses things even more. I can only say what I hear myself, as my opinion.

Bob is not a fan of the 009s so I am not talking about that HP here. That HP does things even more differently, some of them in the 'other world' class.

My comparison is running the LCD2-C out of my stand in NOS and tubed AMR DP-777 DAC with no active gain, using a Metrum Aurix as a constant impedance pot. In other words missing an amp in the mix. My setup later on will do the same, my incoming DAC has a bigger output of 10v so 'possibly' I can continue this idea and still have enough drive to feed the less efficient LCD4s. That is the plan anyway, may work, may not.....

Anyway, that is my thoughts so far. Piles of folk will not agree, other may agree, others may get super heated.... It is the fun of this hobby and users different takes on what we all want at the end of the day.

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-18-icelandic-wonder-page-2