Audeze LCD-4
Oct 5, 2015 at 1:29 PM Post #511 of 12,053
Own and love the hd650, but it is by no means competitive with the hd800, he-6, he-1000, LCD 3, LCD x, sr009, sr007.
If you're talking about enjoyment; sure - but technically, it isn't even close (Imo)


Ha, you might be surprised. And I own every headphone on that list, short one (and one I don't feel is competitive). Give the HD650 a Zana Deux and a nice source that digs deep and you'll find you own a 1st class headphone.
 
Oct 5, 2015 at 1:44 PM Post #512 of 12,053
While the HD 650 is a nice headphone for sure (and can be modified to sound even nicer!) it's just not nearly as refined as the Audeze's or any of STAX's models in my opinion. Or the HD 800 for that matter, even though I actually prefer the tonality of a modded 650 to the 800. 
 
Totally agree though on your comment that a line needs to be drawn on the pricing...
 
Oct 5, 2015 at 1:55 PM Post #513 of 12,053
I don't think it's so easy to categorize.
 
I had an SR007 and SR009, they always had that ethereal sound that I didn't find "real". The SR009 was a bit bright and thin. 
I owned an LCD-X, tried on EC BA and 2A3MKIV and find congested also the treble lacks refinement.
 
The HD650 has an midbass hump and bit wooley bass, it's the only criticism I can do. Overall it's an 1st class headphone.
 
Oct 5, 2015 at 2:04 PM Post #515 of 12,053
   
 
Does that mean if i manage to find the money for an HD600 i will be in the ballpark, up over the 90% (audiophile actuality) mark? Or will the HD650 be the goods?


Well, you can buy some of the lower priced cans from companies like Beyerdynamic, AKG etc and get pretty damn close to be honest, more so with a bit of custom EQ'ing.
 
But the problem with this hobby in general is that there actually isn't an ideal set standard for audio, and it's likely that way with good intention for the purposes of financial incentive, so companies like Audeze can continue to price gouge the unwary in search of this phantom "perfect sound". Audio, more than most other tech hobbies, is highly subjective. Take televisions as a comparative example. We know exactly what to look for if we want the perfect TV. There is a set D65k standard that needs to be met, specific colour grades, hues etc, all scientifically calculated and measured, a very specific white balance, pure, perfect black levels, 0 input lag and so on. All TV's strive for this pre-set 'perfect' standard. When you reach it, you know it. There's no subjectivity when it comes to this, as all TVs are actually striving to meet this very specific standard.
 
Audio is a completely different kettle of fish, and quite the opposite. There is no perfect standard. No perfect frequency response. Some will prefer coloured audio, some will disagree on what coloured even is. Others will prefer a warmer sound, and believe that to be more honest or balanced, whilst others will prefer clinical and more detailed, or analytical, and believe that to be more balanced, and so on. Sennheiser will claim their HD800's provide reference sound, whilst Beyerdynamic will claim the same with their completely different sounding headphones, and it's the same thing with AKG and so on. As mentioned, there is no ideal, and after a certain level the outrageous costs attributed become an exercise in excessive pointlessness, waste and greed.  
 
I bought my first Audeze cans, the LCD-2's, based off of forum posts on here and numerous reviews across the internet. When I finally tested them, I was stunned. This overly warm, dark, bloated, not very comfortable to wear, nor particular detailed pair of $1000+ cans was what people were raving about? To me they sounded average at best, a sonic signature I'd attribute to costing a fraction of the price. To me they were like the Audiophile equivalent of a Beats by Dre can so to speak. That's when the whole subjectivity and lack of correlation between quality to price hit me. I read posts about how the Rev 2's refined the sound, they sounded perfect now, more detailed but retaining that warm sig. So I tried them out too, same opinion, too warm, not enough detail, and still not any more comfortable. And ever since then, every year or more, the previously already near perfect headphone from Audeze, is supposedly magically topped by a naturally far more expensive newer pair, that seemingly moves further from that previously 'perfect' house sound with each iteration, forgoing more and more warmth, for low and behold, more and more detail.
 
 
$3,995 really is an absolute absurd joke. At the very least they could have redesigned the housing to be more comfortable and versatile. As is, Audeze is fast becoming the EA of Audiophile headphone manufacturers, only Audeze charge considerably more for each iteration of their Fifa game.
 
Oct 5, 2015 at 2:07 PM Post #516 of 12,053
Well that's exactly my point. Enjoyment should be treated separately (in my argument at least). I enjoy my momentums more than the hd800 but wouldn't disregard that they technically, across the spectrum dwarfed by the HD800.

Please point me towards an amp that can give my hd650's the bass of the he-1000, the soundstage of the hd800's or he-1000 and the treble of the sr009's.. And I'll be very impressed, because I don't think it's possible.

I think technicalities is what we pay for the further we go up the ladder. Not necessarily enjoyment. Which is why I said I thought the 650's can't compete with said headphones.
 
Oct 5, 2015 at 2:14 PM Post #517 of 12,053
  To follow up on my post; I have no reason to believe Audeze is doing anything wrong with their crowdfunding. Sony did it too, and no one is accusing them for pulling a fast one. Also, wasn't a motion picture funded the same way? Veronica Mars if I recall correctly, from a few years back?
 
My post was simply about addressing their pricing, not their viability.

 
To add to this.  Imagine if you could have a huge pre-order line for your amp where no one has heard it and they have to buy it at the end of the crowdfunding.  Wouldn't you as a company do it? This is similar to the video game industry which allow you to pre-order unfinished products.
 
Oct 5, 2015 at 2:30 PM Post #519 of 12,053
Nothing ever seems to be released fully baked anymore. It's almost like if they wait to get all kinks out of the system, it will be obsolete by launch date :)
 
Oct 5, 2015 at 2:30 PM Post #520 of 12,053
  velvetx, I can very well believe your remarks about lack of bass slam.  I've had considerable time with the entire Audeze lineup, and only the pre-fazor'd LCD2 had bass that had anywhere close to what one would call very impactful.  It had bass that rival'd my HE-400.  Since the widespread praise of the original rev1 LCD2, which was known for very impactful bass, Audeze has slowly moved away to a more neutral sound, and the bass (although very controlled and extended), was never very impactful to me.  I'm also of the opinion that a lot of Head-Fi merely parrots the impressions of old taken from LCD2 rev1, when it comes to the Audeze house sound being known for large and powerful bass-- even if they've heard many of the recent Audeze phones.  It's a confirmation bias if you will.
 
So in that sense, if the LCD4 had a soft-ish bass, it wouldn't surprise me at all. 


I believe it as well. The original LCD2 had the best bass I've heard, but I recently listened to the LCD-3f and wasn't impressed. The bass didn't have much slam and felt boomy. I couldn't figure out if my tastes had changed or if the sound signature has changed since the original LCD2 but I think it's more of the latter.
 
Oct 5, 2015 at 2:59 PM Post #521 of 12,053
  Nothing ever seems to be released fully baked anymore. It's almost like if they wait to get all kinks out of the system, it will be obsolete by launch date :)

Beware of those red ants................
 
Oct 5, 2015 at 3:55 PM Post #524 of 12,053
Maybe others can relate, but the way a particular headphone generates enjoyable bass varies. The SR009 does not have what I would call powerful or super deep bass, but somehow it's just plain great, even on rock or other music that depends on good bass.
The LCD3 and HD1000 have very nice bass too, it's just that they satisfy in a different way. Powerful/deep bass is satisfying, but so is a quicker more transparent bass. I like both types, and that's why I have multiple headphones. 
So I would not consider a report that the bass of the LCD-4 has less impact a show-stopper a deal-breaker on its own, even if true. I would ask if the quality of the bass is opaque or muffled or one-note.
 
Oct 5, 2015 at 5:27 PM Post #525 of 12,053
^ Good post, although last paragraph...it's not just Audez'e.

There have always been doubters concerning Audez'e phones - over-simplifying, those who respond most to the qualities of an HD 800 or various Stax phones.

Like I said, a phone some extoll as perfect may just sound 'meh' to others; as Naim.F.C wrote of the LCD-2 "average at best...a sonic signature [that should cost] a fraction of the price". That's exactly the lack of a perfect standard Naim points to. (Personally, I find my LCD2.1 and LCD3F excellent - e.g. reproduction of piano, which I've played for decades; yet for some material the HD 800 is fantastic and only it will do. Though I still admire my ageing Stax Lambda Pro, I've never cared much for its sound overall).

Finally, I think the term 'preference' covers a lot of different things. It's not just what one 'likes'; it's what one 'hears'. Plausibly, our brains and attention differ in what aspects of sound we focus on, and hence what phone best presents these aspects.

Regardless, the best advice can only be listen for yourself; don't be guided by price.
 

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