ATTICUS and EIKON, the new dynamic driver headphones from ZMF
Jul 25, 2017 at 5:24 PM Post #3,991 of 9,714
When you say Rag in SE mode, are you referring to the headphone out jack? If so, you really need to hear it with a balanced cable before making a decision. The SE only provides a fraction of the power. Then, make sure Rag is on medium or high gain and try it again. It really lights up my Eikon. Love the pairing.

Correct. On 2 separate occasions within 2 months, I heard Rag and v281 with Yggy and HD800. However I heard Rag in SE mode and yes I was refering to HD800 being cabled with the stock cable with 6.3mm jack. Impression then was that it sounded better than I expected. However I heard the setup with v281 in balanced mode. HD800 was then cabled with Cardas balanced xlr cable. That was my wow moment.

So this Sunday, I will listen to both in balanced mode. Tonally they are different. Rag is more neutral and v281 neutral warm. It will boil down to what I prefer tonally. I have no doubt both will light up Eikon in balanced mode. Both manufacturers stated that those amps are at their best in balanced mode. I will do the evaluation using HD800 and possibly a LCD-X, just to get a feel, since I won't have the Eikon.

But I suspect it will be as Zach says... tough choice.
 
Jul 25, 2017 at 5:36 PM Post #3,992 of 9,714
Congrats!!

Thanks. It's kind of funny choosing between Eikon and Atticus. I went back and forth depending on the impressions that I read. I was tempted to try Atticus to get the fun aspect. Who doesn't like solid bass? :ksc75smile:

However I'm more of a details person... so Eikon it is. Colour wise it was easy. I like cherry when it aged and if I needed more convincing, it's cheaper. :ksc75smile:
 
Jul 25, 2017 at 6:17 PM Post #3,993 of 9,714
To ensure that my Eikon is ready when I received it, I ordered this wicked looking Forza Audioworks cable in xlr balanced termination. I also ordered one for my HD800 in black and the Audeze style connectors are so much cheaper than HD800 !!!

73-407-thickbox.jpg
 
Jul 26, 2017 at 1:18 PM Post #3,994 of 9,714
Correct. On 2 separate occasions within 2 months, I heard Rag and v281 with Yggy and HD800. However I heard Rag in SE mode and yes I was refering to HD800 being cabled with the stock cable with 6.3mm jack. Impression then was that it sounded better than I expected. However I heard the setup with v281 in balanced mode. HD800 was then cabled with Cardas balanced xlr cable. That was my wow moment.

So this Sunday, I will listen to both in balanced mode. Tonally they are different. Rag is more neutral and v281 neutral warm. It will boil down to what I prefer tonally. I have no doubt both will light up Eikon in balanced mode. Both manufacturers stated that those amps are at their best in balanced mode. I will do the evaluation using HD800 and possibly a LCD-X, just to get a feel, since I won't have the Eikon.

But I suspect it will be as Zach says... tough choice.

That is a tough choice, all I can say is I like a very "thin" very clear sounding Tube with my Eikon, both my Amp and 1944 Sylvania 6sn7GT are know for their clarity over their "warmth" but being a hybrid tube it is actually warmer than my Audio GD NFB10ES2, additionally I've got a iFi Micro iCanSE which offers a "tube state" ... and that still doesn't compare to the mix of warmth and clarity I get with my Hybrid Tube. So really if your wanting to go solid state, I'd grab clarity over warmth. The Eikon has a beautiful warmth already, and a little more top end energy from your amp/dac only helps improve it even further
 
Jul 26, 2017 at 5:26 PM Post #3,995 of 9,714
That is a tough choice, all I can say is I like a very "thin" very clear sounding Tube with my Eikon, both my Amp and 1944 Sylvania 6sn7GT are know for their clarity over their "warmth" but being a hybrid tube it is actually warmer than my Audio GD NFB10ES2, additionally I've got a iFi Micro iCanSE which offers a "tube state" ... and that still doesn't compare to the mix of warmth and clarity I get with my Hybrid Tube. So really if your wanting to go solid state, I'd grab clarity over warmth. The Eikon has a beautiful warmth already, and a little more top end energy from your amp/dac only helps improve it even further

This is the first time I've heard Eikon being described as a beautiful warm but it's interesting and may suggest an even more musical presentation.

I'm not going solid state and discarding tube amps. I've been with tube amps since I started. They will exists together, giving me the best of both worlds. It is for this reason, I had a rethink and thought that a neutral sounding amp will serve me better since I've got all the warm and lushness in my tube amp. By the way, Euforia's tone can be changed quite a bit with tubes and I have more tubes than I should. :)

So thanks for the feedback. I can indeed imagine Yggy / Rag lighting up Eikon. Looking forward to it.
 
Jul 26, 2017 at 9:53 PM Post #3,996 of 9,714
I do the same! Warmth in tube an clean solid state, an yes the Ekion has a very natural warmth! It pairs beautifully with very detailed tubes too imo
 
Jul 27, 2017 at 1:46 PM Post #3,997 of 9,714
Sonic preferences are subjective: also "political," in the sense that sometimes preferences in audio equipment trend toward certain qualities/flavors, and equipment that lacks those qualities is viewed as different (possibly inferior).

I find that many people who listen to headphones, HP amps, and DACs prefer "detail" & "accuracy" over "warmth" and "euphonic tonality." I read many comments about different headphones & associated equipment that praise things like "treble sparkle" and "detailed" sound. From what I can tell, most of the big-$$ end-game headphones that get reviewed really well in INNER FIDELITY, STEREOPHILE, etc, come from this camp.

In this climate, equipment that does not sound highly detailed & accurate (ie, to me--bright) is sometimes labeled "warm," pretty much just because it's not tipped up in the treble. A good example is the Violectric V281. Compared to other amps I own, I find the V281 to be rather neutral, not really warm. It's also not bright or tipped up in the treble & upper midrange, and thus, some consider it "warm." I own 2 other amps that actually are slightly warm compared to the V281 (Lake People G109-A & Liquid Carbon), though only the LC can truly be described as a "warm" amp IMO.

I've heard the Eikon on a couple occasions (will hear it again tomorrow), enough time to get a sense of what it can do. IMO it's another example of a relatively neutral transducer that some regard as "warm" because it isn't bright. I find the Eikon to the most neutral-sounding headphone I've ever heard, IMO it's perfectly voiced to capture the full range of frequencies in the least distorted, uneven manner possible. The bass is state-of-the-art (including plenty of sub-bass, which is uncommon); the treble seems to go up to the sky, but is not bright at all. The midrange is extremely rich in musical detail & has spectacular soundstaging/note separation, but again, simply is not bright. Accordingly, some hear the Eikon as "warm." To me, it's neither warm nor bright...it goes right down the middle: "the golden mean."
 
Jul 27, 2017 at 2:48 PM Post #3,998 of 9,714
Sonic preferences are subjective: also "political," in the sense that sometimes preferences in audio equipment trend toward certain qualities/flavors, and equipment that lacks those qualities is viewed as different (possibly inferior).

I find that many people who listen to headphones, HP amps, and DACs prefer "detail" & "accuracy" over "warmth" and "euphonic tonality." I read many comments about different headphones & associated equipment that praise things like "treble sparkle" and "detailed" sound. From what I can tell, most of the big-$$ end-game headphones that get reviewed really well in INNER FIDELITY, STEREOPHILE, etc, come from this camp.

In this climate, equipment that does not sound highly detailed & accurate (ie, to me--bright) is sometimes labeled "warm," pretty much just because it's not tipped up in the treble. A good example is the Violectric V281. Compared to other amps I own, I find the V281 to be rather neutral, not really warm. It's also not bright or tipped up in the treble & upper midrange, and thus, some consider it "warm." I own 2 other amps that actually are slightly warm compared to the V281 (Lake People G109-A & Liquid Carbon), though only the LC can truly be described as a "warm" amp IMO.

I've heard the Eikon on a couple occasions (will hear it again tomorrow), enough time to get a sense of what it can do. IMO it's another example of a relatively neutral transducer that some regard as "warm" because it isn't bright. I find the Eikon to the most neutral-sounding headphone I've ever heard, IMO it's perfectly voiced to capture the full range of frequencies in the least distorted, uneven manner possible. The bass is state-of-the-art (including plenty of sub-bass, which is uncommon); the treble seems to go up to the sky, but is not bright at all. The midrange is extremely rich in musical detail & has spectacular soundstaging/note separation, but again, simply is not bright. Accordingly, some hear the Eikon as "warm." To me, it's neither warm nor bright...it goes right down the middle: "the golden mean."

Partially true, when I speak of warmth I'm referring to resonance, resonance or reverb adds warmth, some headphones like my HE 4 have very little, and are cold, but the mid range is still a touch forward, other headphones have too much resonance and are too warm. The Eikon has a natural warmth, there's resonance but not to much, nor to little really just right, and the lack of a treble spike isn't a bad thing, usually I run between either Bright Neutral or a Dark Neutral, two sides of the neutral spectrum. Imo the Eikon again sits in the middle, I'd like a little more up top, but it's lacking nothing. There's no detail that it misses, I just prefer a little north of Neutral to help pull some of the micro detail just a smidge forward. But all in all the Eikons lack of "north of neutral" makes it really ideal for just listening to music, it lacks nothing and shines the spot light on the music, the transients, the release, sustain shifts all music, you still get the little oddities up top like people speaking in the back ground, foot steps, page turns of a cable shifting around, but it's not obvious. It's there but it's not in your face

Now for a solid state Warm for me translates to decay, my Hybrid tube is warm as the decay is a little exaggerated vs my solid State what I like about my Hybrid tube though is that little extra touch of decay really helps to bring music closer to reality I think, now for headphones that already have a LOT of mid range resonance or decay, than a Solid State is nice. Keeps things in check,

I've not heard the Violectric so I can't speak for it, now my Old Matrix M Stage was warm, my Hifiman HM601 is again very warm, there's a added decay in the mid range vs my NFB10ES2 which is quicker or cleaner in the mid range, I recently got to hear a iFi iCan Micro SE it claims it has a "tube state" warmth, but honestly I don't think it compares as nicely to a tube as it would like to, and it's not all that warm either, the mid range has good preseance, it's not to sluggish and the top end doesn't stand out, it's quite middle of the road which I like!

My tube is warm, cheaper solid states are warm, but a nice proper solid state imo should be quite neutral or if anything dark, a little roll of up top helps to bring out the bass/mid range without adding a lot of decay

the RSA SR71B is a good dark solid state in contrast to my bright/neutral NFB10ES2
 
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Jul 27, 2017 at 3:47 PM Post #3,999 of 9,714
Partially true, when I speak of warmth I'm referring to resonance, resonance or reverb adds warmth, some headphones like my HE 4 have very little, and are cold, but the mid range is still a touch forward, other headphones have too much resonance and are too warm. The Eikon has a natural warmth, there's resonance but not to much, nor to little really just right, and the lack of a treble spike isn't a bad thing, usually I run between either Bright Neutral or a Dark Neutral, two sides of the neutral spectrum. Imo the Eikon again sits in the middle, I'd like a little more up top, but it's lacking nothing. There's no detail that it misses, I just prefer a little north of Neutral to help pull some of the micro detail just a smidge forward. But all in all the Eikons lack of "north of neutral" makes it really ideal for just listening to music, it lacks nothing and shines the spot light on the music, the transients, the release, sustain shifts all music, you still get the little oddities up top like people speaking in the back ground, foot steps, page turns of a cable shifting around, but it's not obvious. It's there but it's not in your face

Now for a solid state Warm for me translates to decay, my Hybrid tube is warm as the decay is a little exaggerated vs my solid State what I like about my Hybrid tube though is that little extra touch of decay really helps to bring music closer to reality I think, now for headphones that already have a LOT of mid range resonance or decay, than a Solid State is nice. Keeps things in check,

I've not heard the Violectric so I can't speak for it, now my Old Matrix M Stage was warm, my Hifiman HM601 is again very warm, there's a added decay in the mid range vs my NFB10ES2 which is quicker or cleaner in the mid range, I recently got to hear a iFi iCan Micro SE it claims it has a "tube state" warmth, but honestly I don't think it compares as nicely to a tube as it would like to, and it's not all that warm either, the mid range has good preseance, it's not to sluggish and the top end doesn't stand out, it's quite middle of the road which I like!

My tube is warm, cheaper solid states are warm, but a nice proper solid state imo should be quite neutral or if anything dark, a little roll of up top helps to bring out the bass/mid range without adding a lot of decay

the RSA SR71B is a good dark solid state in contrast to my bright/neutral NFB10ES2

Well, what you hear is what you hear.

But you use terms like "warm" & "warmth" in a very individual/personal way--to include not only tonality (bright or dark in terms of elevated or depressed upper frequencies), but also "resonance" and "reverb," which could mean any number of things.

In my experience, terms like "warm," "bright," "peaky," and "bassy" primarily involve tonality, how frequency is conveyed. In that sense, "warm" = depressed treble frequencies; "bright" = elevated treble/upper midrange frequencies; "peaky" could mean elevation of pretty much any frequency; and "bassy" = elevated bass/sub-bass frequencies.

But when you get into resonance and reverb, those terms could refer to soundstaging--ie, how wide, tall, deep the soundstage appears to be; how distinct/separate notes and instruments sound in it; etc. They could also refer to the sound imparted by earcups: their dimensions (ie, lots of space vs very little); whether the earcups are open or closed by design. I suppose those terms could even encompass other phenomena (ie, phase anomalies, channel imbalance, time-smearing of some kind coming from cables, DAC, etc)

Perhaps I'm the only one that thinks differently about this. Maybe everybody but me bundles warmth & brightness together with spacious & reverb. But I don't think so.

To show what I meant: there's a headphone well known to not be "warm" in tonality/frequency, but definitely is spacious in soundstaging & reverberation (Sennheiser HD800).

BTW, you're right about the M Stage being warm; my HPA-1 certainly is. It may be is the warmest component I own. Also bassy. Stock, it's somewhat spacious in sound (fairly wide but also fairly indistinct soundstaging). I upgraded the opamp; the result was far less warmth along with a rather different soundstage--now more pinpoint/focused & centered (narrower), making it easier to "see" different instruments in space--also with a more focused, clear bass.
 
Jul 27, 2017 at 4:51 PM Post #4,000 of 9,714
Sonic preferences are subjective: also "political," in the sense that sometimes preferences in audio equipment trend toward certain qualities/flavors, and equipment that lacks those qualities is viewed as different (possibly inferior).

I find that many people who listen to headphones, HP amps, and DACs prefer "detail" & "accuracy" over "warmth" and "euphonic tonality." I read many comments about different headphones & associated equipment that praise things like "treble sparkle" and "detailed" sound. From what I can tell, most of the big-$$ end-game headphones that get reviewed really well in INNER FIDELITY, STEREOPHILE, etc, come from this camp.

In this climate, equipment that does not sound highly detailed & accurate (ie, to me--bright) is sometimes labeled "warm," pretty much just because it's not tipped up in the treble. A good example is the Violectric V281. Compared to other amps I own, I find the V281 to be rather neutral, not really warm. It's also not bright or tipped up in the treble & upper midrange, and thus, some consider it "warm." I own 2 other amps that actually are slightly warm compared to the V281 (Lake People G109-A & Liquid Carbon), though only the LC can truly be described as a "warm" amp IMO.

I've heard the Eikon on a couple occasions (will hear it again tomorrow), enough time to get a sense of what it can do. IMO it's another example of a relatively neutral transducer that some regard as "warm" because it isn't bright. I find the Eikon to the most neutral-sounding headphone I've ever heard, IMO it's perfectly voiced to capture the full range of frequencies in the least distorted, uneven manner possible. The bass is state-of-the-art (including plenty of sub-bass, which is uncommon); the treble seems to go up to the sky, but is not bright at all. The midrange is extremely rich in musical detail & has spectacular soundstaging/note separation, but again, simply is not bright. Accordingly, some hear the Eikon as "warm." To me, it's neither warm nor bright...it goes right down the middle: "the golden mean."

Well said! I have also noticed that there seems to be a preferred 'audiophile' sound: a slightly bright, super-detailed, kind of incisive sound that IMHO emphasizes detail and accuracy over musicality and natural timbre. Also, for speakers in particular I have noticed that high-end speakers often portray musical instruments as more point-like than they are in real life. For example, I've had the pleasure of attending small-scale piano concerts and if I close my eyes I hear the piano (a Steinway Concert Grand in this case - love the juicy, velvety sound!) not as a small point source but as a large source of sound. YMMV, of course.
 
Jul 27, 2017 at 5:23 PM Post #4,001 of 9,714
Alright folks. Nice discourse but I think we shouldn't continue to discuss amps in this ZMF Atticus and Eikon thread. My apologies for initiating it. All because I am trying to pick an ss amp.... :)

There will be preferences, one way or another. Depends on individuals. I understand the use of warm as described above and I can relate to what neutral means when I hear it. In both Ragnarok and v281, neither are considered neutral bright. Definitely not. Rag sounds neutral natural to me and v281 sounds neutral warm - just a tad but noticeable when compared to Rag. I have auditioned both with Yggy and HD800 in balanced mode. Well that's how I hear it. Someone else might interpret it differently if they hear it, even with the same setup.

I will make a decision this Sat. It is not that hard a decision. Both are great amps when used with ZMF headphones and more...

Plus I'm going to the Australian HiFi Show. It's more like a big Can Jam, with all the names represented there.
https://www.chestergroup.org/australianhifiavshow/2017/exhibiting/floorplan
 
Jul 27, 2017 at 5:57 PM Post #4,002 of 9,714
Well, what you hear is what you hear.

But you use terms like "warm" & "warmth" in a very individual/personal way--to include not only tonality (bright or dark in terms of elevated or depressed upper frequencies), but also "resonance" and "reverb," which could mean any number of things.

In my experience, terms like "warm," "bright," "peaky," and "bassy" primarily involve tonality, how frequency is conveyed. In that sense, "warm" = depressed treble frequencies; "bright" = elevated treble/upper midrange frequencies; "peaky" could mean elevation of pretty much any frequency; and "bassy" = elevated bass/sub-bass frequencies.

But when you get into resonance and reverb, those terms could refer to soundstaging--ie, how wide, tall, deep the soundstage appears to be; how distinct/separate notes and instruments sound in it; etc. They could also refer to the sound imparted by earcups: their dimensions (ie, lots of space vs very little); whether the earcups are open or closed by design. I suppose those terms could even encompass other phenomena (ie, phase anomalies, channel imbalance, time-smearing of some kind coming from cables, DAC, etc)

Perhaps I'm the only one that thinks differently about this. Maybe everybody but me bundles warmth & brightness together with spacious & reverb. But I don't think so.

To show what I meant: there's a headphone well known to not be "warm" in tonality/frequency, but definitely is spacious in soundstaging & reverberation (Sennheiser HD800).

BTW, you're right about the M Stage being warm; my HPA-1 certainly is. It may be is the warmest component I own. Also bassy. Stock, it's somewhat spacious in sound (fairly wide but also fairly indistinct soundstaging). I upgraded the opamp; the result was far less warmth along with a rather different soundstage--now more pinpoint/focused & centered (narrower), making it easier to "see" different instruments in space--also with a more focused, clear bass.

I don't feel Resonance or reverberation which is literally the cups/housing/drivers vibrating audibly, can be used to describe soundstage

Resonance by the way is synonymous with reverb, "the reinforcement or prolongation of sound by reflection from a surface or by the synchronous vibration of a neighboring object"
reverberation "prolongation of a sound; resonance" the two are interchangeable

every headphone has some decay to it an I like wood back headphone because the cub reverb combined with driver resonance adds a very real sense of warmth, though the drivers them self's resonate, and when they resonate to much you get excessive decay, or the sound audibly hangs around to much after the initial attack, the HD 800 does not have a lot of resonance or reverb, quite the opposite, in fact there are mods to help warm them up or add in some resonance, but here's the amazing thing! Resonance/Reverb are connected with imaging, if you have a LOT of resonance or audible decay you'll find that your imaging may dull, it becomes harder to hear transients or differences between channels because of excessive resonance, think of it as ripples in a body of water. To much resonance and all those ripples come together, which makes a mess, the Eikon has some cup reverb, has some resonance, how ever the driver doesn't resonate excessivelywhich allows it to resolve very well, the drivers lack of excessive resonance allows for more a more accurate image, better sense of left right, backwards, forward, height depth ect... and it's still has some natural warmth or some natural resonance/decay from the cups reverberation

Tonality "the character of a piece of music as determined by the key in which it is played or the relations between the notes of a scale or key" and frequency response are linked. Bright translates to me extra energy up top, dark maybe a little less energy up top, bassy is too much low frequancies, though bassy is vague. Is the frequancy response of the bass very forward/elevated? Or is there a LOT of decay, meaning those low notes hang around after the initial attack, Typically the two are tied together, as the louder the attack is the more audible the decay that follows, it's decay to me translates into warmth. My HE 4 is VERY cold, there's very little decay, and the mids aren't withdrawn in comparison to the bass or highs it just lacks warmth or it lacks decay, which I like but also makes it sound a bit fake

Where as the Eikon again has warmth, the warmth emanates from the resonance of the cups, that cup reverb is why an Open Back like the Grado RS2E has a beautiful warm mid range, despite being an open back

Although again, you can also have a driver that resonnantes a little to much, and adds in a little decay as well, the Focal Elear another open back that's warm, the driver also have some excessive resonance, or a slower decay which is in it's cause creates warmth, another beautiful thing about the elear is it's Distortion is super low

Really it's all connected, too much reverb can hurt imaging, and can remove air, too much audible distortion can also cause the imaging or accurate placement of instruments in the sense of width, depth and height, and some times that distortion can also contribute to warmth or to much decay, it's all connected together, frequency response dictates tonality, but frequency response tied with Cumulative Spectral Decay, total harmonic distortion and impulse response that is what dictates your imaging, the more decay, the more distortion the less impulse response the smaller and more hazy the picture,

So when an amp adds haze, or it adds distortion, decay and dulls impulse response it can be described as warm IMO, and warmth isn't always bad. The HE 4 is TOO fast it's too cold, it sounds fake so it likes a warmer amp, the Eikon on the other hand... is beautiful! Very transparent of what it's plugged into and I personally like it with a hybrid tube, the tube really does imo add to the natural warmth of the Eikon, or how the drivers present the sound, and with the right tube you can introduce just enough distortion to not ruin the CSD or impulse response, but maintain it's amazing imaging and add some more beauty

The Eikon is indeed Spacious, but it's not bright, there is audible reverb which translates into warmth, and the key point is that it's warmth is not excessive, tonality alone doesn't tell the story of how spacious something will sound or how well it will image

That's at least how I understand it, I could be completely wrong but... there's my 2cents

@UntilThen going to a CanJam is an excellent way to figure out what you like best with your Eikon! Let's us know what you try it with
 
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Jul 27, 2017 at 6:22 PM Post #4,003 of 9,714
I have just ordered my Eikon. Haven't got it yet and Zach won't be at the Australian HiFi show though he is most welcome. :)

This is how it will pan out. I will be at the store on Sat listening to 2 powerful amps and buying one.

Sunday I will go to the show.... :)
 
Jul 27, 2017 at 6:25 PM Post #4,004 of 9,714
Aww well that's alright. You can't go wrong with either, so just have fun and enjoy the show ^^ something else you might like too, I don't know if it was suggested, but pick up something like the Rag so you have the option to run speakers, and if you ever want more warmth from the Rag you can slap a Schiit Saga preAmp in front of it, it's like cooking easier to add than it is to take away
 

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