[Music Alchemist]

In your experience, how much do you have to spend on a loudspeaker system to outperform the best headphones? (Such as the HE 1, HE 90, SR-009, SR-007, Abyss, etc.)
 
With your answer, please include references: which headphones and speakers you compared, how much they cost, which components were used in the systems, whether you tested with all types of music, which categories the headphones still win in, and so on.
 
Naturally, quality speaker systems are going to excel at soundstage, imaging, separation, bass, and full-body impact, so for the purposes of this thread, let's leave that out of the equation.

 

[mulveling]

They are very different. I don't buy the claims that modest speaker setups clobber the best headphones. Not for me, and not in my experience. I've heard big systems with Focal Grand Utopias (ugh, just so mediocre; I couldn't wait to get back home to my gear), the Utopia model just below the Grand, Magico S5, Tannoy Kingdom Royal, more too. I've owned Tannoy Canterbury SE   ($20,600 MSRP, with a $20K Rogue Audio amp+preamp driving them) for 4 years, and I like them way better than most of the more expensive systems that haven't been meticulously setup (seems to be common even for megabuck systems). I would say though, that the Tannoys are more detailed than any dynamic/moving-coil headphone driver I've heard, at least until you get to the bass (extremely hard for speakers/rooms to get bass perfect) -- with possible exceptions being Qualia 010 and maybe R10. But they're not as clean/resolving as the 009. 
 
Yes, good speakers will give you realistic sound-staging, and tactile impact that can reproduce the energy of live music. Headphones definitely can't touch speakers there. But I have yet to hear anything match (much less beat) the resolving power and accuracy of a well-driven 009. 
 
Sometimes I prefer my Tannoys. Sometimes I prefer 009. They're pretty well matched in ability to enjoy music, they go about it differently. Sans source and cables, we're looking at $40K list on the speaker gear vs. $10K on the 009/BHSE or Carbon.

 

[mulveling]

I will also say the 009 system has been a great tool for guiding changes/improvements in my Tannoy system. It lets me know when things are off, and whether a change with a pleasing effect is whack or actually improving the accuracy/detail of things. I have a higher listening standard now, both in terms of ultimate detail and musicality. 

 

[Zoom25]

Headphones: Hifiman HE-500, Audeze LCD-2.2 pre-fazor, Audeze LCD-3 pre-razor, Sennheiser HD 800...no Stax yet, so I suppose I'm disqualified by not having heard the best headphone out there?
 
Heard them on assortment of the flagship gear from EAR, Bryston, NAD, NAIM, PrimaLuna, Luxman, PS Audio regeneration plants, fancy isolation platforms and Stillpoints rack as well as cables. The rig consisting of digital players, DAC, pre-amps, power amps, headphone amps conditioning/regeneration, ranged anywhere from $40,00-$20,000k and upwards.
 
I personally prefer high end studio audio gear rather than hi-fi speakers. Although, I do have a soft spot for KEF gear.
 
Tested all with music. I carry a 2TB hard drive filled with WAV albums of all genres and use a few reference albums to test out the feel and voicing of the gear. Before getting into analytical hearing, I try to see if I can get used to the overall presentation of the speakers or headphones. Do I "buy" into whatever is being conveyed?
 
I prefer midfields/largefields in big rooms with treatment. Nothing comes close. Having said that, I find I do end up spending quite a bit of time in smaller rooms in front of midfields.
 
I'm really fond of the active ATC SCM150 and bigger PMCs. Recently got Amphion One15's for my nearfield setup and have the HD 800 right beside them, but ultimately prefer the Amphion more. I cannot emphasize the difference the room makes in the sound. I have spent countless hours getting the room setup perfectly with respect to positioning, toe-in angle, furniture distribution (Y/N) and placement, as well as the treatment.
 
I also refuse to use any DSP or EQ and keep the signal chain as clean as possible. Instead, fix the room and chain first. It's definitely paid me with transparency.
 
With Amphions, I can put together a room with treatment for about $15,000 that beats all the headphones I've tried.

 

[mulveling]

Well, for me HD800 level (and I've heard HE1000 v1 so those too, and I'm tempted to lump all dynamics and planars together because I have yet to hear one sound like a good electrostat) aren't enough to exceed great speakers in detail -- so at that point they have almost nothing going for them against a great speaker setup. Hearing the Stax SR-009 with excellent amps (various KGSShv, BHSE, DIY T2) is the sole reason I came back to headphones after a long hiatus since I got into some good Tannoys (first Kensington, then Canterbury). The accuracy of the 009 is hard to find anywhere, at any price.
 
To be fair lots people just don't like the presentation of headphones, and in that case even a 009 w/ DIY T2 would not likely sway them vs. a decent stereo rig. Good speakers, and the things they do well, certainly do have a more universal appeal. But I like both my headphones & speakers a lot. I too have avoided DSP/EQ in my systems. 

 

[bfreedma]

It's really an impossible question to answer.
 
Speakers, even inexpensive speakers, have a tactile element to them that headphones don't.  On the other hand, even really expensive speakers can sound horrible in an improperly treated room.  I've heard the Focal Grand Utopia EMs in 4 different locations.  Full disclosure - I like the Focal sound and own upper mid range Focal speakers.
 
Location 1 - small, well treated room.  Impression - average to good, but the room was simply too small for the speakers to be placed far enough away from the wall
Location 2 - large untreated room.  Impression -  bad to terrible.  The room was all glass and marble floors with no treatments.  I wanted to tell the owner what I thought, but no need to ruin his purchase.
Location 3 - large room, partially treated.  Impression - very good.  Enjoyed the listening session very much but still wasn't feeling $200k
Location 4 - large, fully treated room.  Impression - can I live there?  I'll sleep on the floor  This was a dedicated room with a virtually unlimited budget.  Over $20k was spent assessing the room before construction began to ensure the best possible results were achieved.
 
Generalizing, I would take moderately priced speakers in a well treated room over any headphones.  The sound stage and tactile elements of speakers in an acoustically efficient room can't be replicated by headphones (or at least, I haven't experienced it).  It's impossible to separate those elements from the assessment, nor should they be.
 
In a poorly treated room, I'd take a good set of headphones over just about any speaker regardless of cost.  Nothing in speaker design or DSP can overcome a room that's an acoustic disaster area.
 
When compared to room treatments, electronics, cables, and music genre are insignificant enough to be largely discounted assuming nothing is fundamentally broken.

 

[gevorg]

Depends on your priorities and what you value in sound quality/reproduction. Top of the line headphones rule detail retrieval and do an excellent job to achieve a neutral FR, but no headphone setup can match the soundstage/imaging/etc of even the cheapo Emotiva $300 speakers. Headphones vs speakers have a vastly different presentation of sound, though, most music was created to be heard on speakers. For my preferences, headphone listening is a compromise due to environmental factors. Maybe Smyth Realizer A16 can change my perspective on headphones.

 

[JimL11]

Well, if you leave out " soundstage, imaging, separation, bass, and full-body impact", what do you have left?  Basically tonality/frequency balance, purity of tone and detail.  Unless you have a dedicated room, bass response is going to be a problem for speakers of any price due to room resonances.  You can get around this to some extent in the bass with equalization of peaks and room treatments, but if you want to live in a room as well as listen to speakers in it there are limits.  You are just not going to get the even bass response that is available with the best headphones.  However, I have to say that my Quad ESLs (originals) with an equalized dipole subwoofer sounds very nice indeed.  As do my Stax SR007 Mk II with DIY SRX Plus amp.  Of interest, the list price of the Quads when they were still available was similar to the street price of the Stax today.  Both to my ears have a very natural tonality (Quads of course have a legendary midrange) and are very detailed.  But the two experiences are so different that it is really difficult to rank them.

 

[jgazal]

(...) "full-body impact"
(...) with an equalized dipole subwoofer sounds very nice indeed.
(...) my Stax SR007 Mk II with DIY SRX Plus amp.

Have you tried your equalized subwoofer with your headphones?
What is your opinion about headphones and tactile transducers instead?

 

[JimL11]

Have you tried your equalized subwoofer with your headphones?
What is your opinion about headphones and tactile transducers instead?

Nope, no experience with either.