Have you paired with with a dedicated DAC with a normal DAC level output impedance or a true line out from a DAP ?
Curious what your thoughts are.
I paired my PA10 with a couple of dongles just for "proof of concept" when somebody was asking about more affordable sources but usually use it with a DAP via the fixed line out.
I can't say the dongle sounded notably different but I only spent 10 minutes with it, wondering what your observations are, you seem more inclined to put in the time needed to assess than I am
I recall reading on the Cayin RU6 thread that the Cayin rep recommended using nothing more than about 70% volume to keep distortion levels low, seems that would apply to any dongle if it needs to be run essentially full volume to get appropriate output voltage. Also how does the dongle output going into what I imagine is a very high input impedance of the PA10 at full volume effect distortion levels ? I mean an amplifier usually has an input impedance measured in thousands of ohms not the low impedance that the dongle is designed to drive, but I don't know if that matter at all.
The real discriminating factor is that in the past the real problem was that of double amplification which could introduce distortion because it was not at the level of today's. With modern dongles this problem no longer exists because any dongle approaches having a THD of 130db therefore no background noise unless it is a dongle with particular implementations (RU6) for which it is advisable to set the volume to 76. More dongles like the ifi GO bar could cause the problem because when it encounters impedances like that of a PA10 it transforms its output into voltage and even reaches over 7 volts which is really too much for a balanced input which prefers 4 volts maximum so that too is It is advisable to use it not at maximum volume. For all other dongles you can easily set the volume to maximum and transform the maximum milliwatts into maximum volts. Once this is done, the very low signal/noise ratio allows you to use any dongle at the level of any DAC without any problem. In fact, I use all my dongles not only with the RA2BFE and the PA10 but also with a Cayin iHA-6 which with its 7 watts per channel allows me to listen to the HE6 with many different sound signatures with a completely balanced connection that starts from the dongle and , through the amplifier, reaches the headphones. Dongles are now not just simple dongles, but real DACs.
If you then want to overdo it, you can provide the dongle with a step-down switching power supply which increases its performance even further and not only when used as a DAC. Connecting it to something like this...
I think the pa10 adds more to the bit lower end sources or when you pair it with higher end ones for more power.
For example, with the AK sp1000 it changed the sound slightly in some areas but the characteristics of the sp1000 were lost, such as very lively and detailed but warmish midrange, layering or this extreme right/left channel separation which creates an impressive soundstage width when listening directly from the sp1000.
With the pa10 the sound wasn't much better but different. Maybe it was bit better in controll and everything got more dense. The soundstage became more spherical in opposition to the very wide ellipsoidal that came straight out of the dap. With iems it could be called an upgrade but sometimes i thought it was just a side grade. Many times I ended up unplugging the pa10 and listening just the dap. The sp1000 has it's very distinct character and the pa10 made it bit more ordinary (but still amazing, so definitely no sq degradation).
With the Elite the pa10 added maybe bit more but still not enough to bother as the Elite itself is just amazing and very advanced sound wise.
With harder to drive headphones the pa10 was a must and it sounded like a high class desktop amp.
On the other hand, with bit lesser quality sources, like the Pioneer xdp300r or AK sr35, the sound improvement was very significant, even with iems. The pioneer which still sounds very very good and mature, after quick comparison sounded like it was broken without the pa10.
I think the pa10 adds more to the bit lower end sources or when you pair it with higher end ones for more power.
For example, with the AK sp1000 it changed the sound slightly in some areas but the characteristics of the sp1000 were lost, such as very lively and detailed but warmish midrange, layering or this extreme right/left channel separation which creates an impressive soundstage width when listening directly from the sp1000.
With the pa10 the sound wasn't much better but different. Maybe it was bit better in controll and everything got more dense. The soundstage became more spherical in opposition to the very wide ellipsoidal that came straight out of the dap. With iems it could be called an upgrade but sometimes i thought it was just a side grade. Many times I ended up unplugging the pa10 and listening just the dap. The sp1000 has it's very distinct character and the pa10 made it bit more ordinary (but still amazing, so definitely no sq degradation).
With the Elite the pa10 added maybe bit more but still not enough to bother as the Elite itself is just amazing and very advanced sound wise.
With harder to drive headphones the pa10 was a must and it sounded like a high class desktop amp.
On the other hand, with bit lesser quality sources, like the Pioneer xdp300r or AK sr35, the sound improvement was very significant, even with iems. The pioneer which still sounds very very good and mature, after quick comparison sounded like it was broken without the pa10.
I practically have the Onkyo version of your Pioneer, the DP-X1 and I will try it as soon as possible. But how do you connect it? In balanced at maximum volume? I don't remember if they have line out, but if they do they will only have it on the 3.5mm I think... or am I wrong?
I practically have the Onkyo version of your Pioneer, the DP-X1 and I will try it as soon as possible. But how do you connect it? In balanced at maximum volume? I don't remember if they have line out, but if they do they will only have it on the 3.5mm I think... or am I wrong?
Oh yeah, the old great Onkyo. These daps were very high end a couple years ago. Fantastic Pioneer/Onkyo tuning but just lacking in dynamics due to a not very powerful amplifier. I used 3.5 as i dont have 2.5 interconnect and didnt bother buying 4.4 to 2.5 mm adapter just for this use case.
Pioneer (and your Onkyo probably too) does have the line out which sets the volume to the max.
Last night I tried two more dongels with the PA10, the UA4 from Shanling and the M15 from Questyle. While there is little to say about the first because the PA10 "limits" itself to strengthening the sound, on the second there is a similarity with what the PA10 provides to the W4. In fact, the M15, aided by the PA10, shows its muscles even more and the bass becomes even deeper and more layered while the sound in general acquires more definition and three-dimensionality. As with the W4, the M15 also provides more body and musicality but does not reach the same level of synergy that it shows with the Luxury & Precision dongle. It is understood that if you appreciate (like me) the sound of the M15, you will certainly appreciate it even more with the PA10.
What the PA10 was not able to do with the Elite... (improve its sound) it manages to do with the iteresses when coupled with the FC6. The FC6 is one of the best dongles on the market without a doubt despite its limitations where the main one concerns amplification. The 31 adjustment steps are not enough, the power is not enough, the soundstage, the depth, the authority, the weight of the sound, the control, the extension are not enough. Despite this, I consider it without a shadow of a doubt one of the best DACs on the market and perhaps the best if you keep the DC-Elite aside. Having said that, let's talk about what happens when a DAC like this meets the amplification of the PA10... what happens is that together they become pure dynamite. The sound that develops when a DAC like the FC6 meets the PA10's amplification is simply terrifying. Any dap, of any cost and of any brand risks making a terrible impression when compared to this pair. Everything that the FC6 could express with adequate amplification manages to do so with the help of the PA10, reaching simply unthinkable levels. If you have an FC6 try it with the PA10 and if you have a PA10 try it with an FC6... show off your best IEM... you will listen to something magical... the music.
What the PA10 was not able to do with the Elite... (improve its sound) it manages to do with the iteresses when coupled with the FC6. The FC6 is one of the best dongles on the market without a doubt despite its limitations where the main one concerns amplification. The 31 adjustment steps are not enough, the power is not enough, the soundstage, the depth, the authority, the weight of the sound, the control, the extension are not enough. Despite this, I consider it without a shadow of a doubt one of the best DACs on the market and perhaps the best if you keep the DC-Elite aside. Having said that, let's talk about what happens when a DAC like this meets the amplification of the PA10... what happens is that together they become pure dynamite. The sound that develops when a DAC like the FC6 meets the PA10's amplification is simply terrifying. Any dap, of any cost and of any brand risks making a terrible impression when compared to this pair. Everything that the FC6 could express with adequate amplification manages to do so with the help of the PA10, reaching simply unthinkable levels. If you have an FC6 try it with the PA10 and if you have a PA10 try it with an FC6... show off your best IEM... you will listen to something magical... the music.
I have this combo and I 100% agree. Crossfeed enabled for classical music is on another level, too. I also upsample to 706kHz and the imaging and spacial cues get even better.
PA10 and FC6 already sounded great single ended. But I decided to try this adaption to 4.4mm. It works like a charm, even though the amp isn't getting a true balanced signal. More power available, and I always thought the balanced portion of the PA10 was the real star anyway in terms of sound quality. This setup is fantastic:
Bubble UPNP streaming Qobuz -> Neutron as a renderer on the same phone (Neutron upsampling Qobuz to 706kHz and all quality settings at maximum) -> Pulwtop USB hub (HUGE soundstage expansion and better bass control) -> FC6 -> 3.5mm to 4.4mm adaptor -> 4.4mm patch cable -> PA10 -> Hifiman HE1000se with 4.4mm cable
PA10 and FC6 already sounded great single ended. But I decided to try this adaption to 4.4mm. It works like a charm, even though the amp isn't getting a true balanced signal. More power available, and I always thought the balanced portion of the PA10 was the real star anyway in terms of sound quality. This setup is fantastic:
Bubble UPNP streaming Qobuz -> Neutron as a renderer on the same phone (Neutron upsampling Qobuz to 706kHz and all quality settings at maximum) -> Pulwtop USB hub (HUGE soundstage expansion and better bass control) -> FC6 -> 3.5mm to 4.4mm adaptor -> 4.4mm patch cable -> PA10 -> Hifiman HE1000se with 4.4mm cable
A 4.4mm to 3.5mm adapter like that is generally intended to be used the other way around to (temporarily) rewire the 4 wires of the cable to a single ended set up so the negative sides of each channel from the 4.4mm plug are connected to a common ground via the adapter. Functionally exactly the same as soldering the two wires together onto the grounding sleeve of the 3.5mm.
You are using it the other way so the grounding sleeve of the 3.5mm is connected to the negative side of the left and right channels of the PA10 amplifiers.
While that works insofar as it creates sound, the negative input for the left and right channels of the PA10 are, via the adapter, connected to the common ground of the 3.5mm so the PA10 is not getting a positive and a negative signal for both channels. It is getting a positive signal to each channel with the negative side of each channels amplifier connected to the ground of the DAC.
I wouldn't pretend to understand the internal circuitry of the PA10 to understand to the nth degree of detail what power is going where, but the amplifiers are being fed a single ended signal and despite making sound and probably being harmless (given that PA10 doesn't shut down in a protection mode) is also logically not actually making the most of the balanced architecture that is feeding the 4.4mm jack.
A 4.4mm to 3.5mm adapter like that is generally intended to be used the other way around to (temporarily) rewire the 4 wires of the cable to a single ended set up so the negative sides of each channel from the 4.4mm plug are connected to a common ground via the adapter. Functionally exactly the same as soldering the two wires together onto the grounding sleeve of the 3.5mm.
You are using it the other way so the grounding sleeve of the 3.5mm is connected to the negative side of the left and right channels of the PA10 amplifiers.
While that works insofar as it creates sound, the negative input for the left and right channels of the PA10 are, via the adapter, connected to the common ground of the 3.5mm so the PA10 is not getting a positive and a negative signal for both channels. It is getting a positive signal to each channel with the negative side of each channels amplifier connected to the ground of the DAC.
I wouldn't pretend to understand the internal circuitry of the PA10 to understand to the nth degree of detail what power is going where, but the amplifiers are being fed a single ended signal and despite making sound and probably being harmless (given that PA10 doesn't shut down in a protection mode) is also logically not actually making the most of the balanced architecture that is feeding the 4.4mm jack.
Correct. It isn't taking full advantage of the balanced input. I use it because it outputs a higher volume than the 3.5 PA10 headphone jack, and allows me to use my aftermarket headphone cable and that lovely sounding ifi 4.4 patch cable.
I'm waiting for another little friend of the AKPA10 to arrive who has only one weak point in amplification (not for power but for refinement)... FiiO Q15. We will see what they will be able to express when connected to each other. The desktop mode function and the 4.4mm balanced line out should make it perfect for the AKPA10. I'll let you know as soon as it arrives.
I'm waiting for another little friend of the AKPA10 to arrive who has only one weak point in amplification (not for power but for refinement)... FiiO Q15. We will see what they will be able to express when connected to each other. The desktop mode function and the 4.4mm balanced line out should make it perfect for the AKPA10. I'll let you know as soon as it arrives.
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