[Davesrose]

Generally “yes” some C18th are a bit of a nightmare. Modern ones, particularly those in the last 30 years, usually employ complex computer modelling of the acoustics, architects can tweak and play around with all sorts of acoustic solutions/tricks before they even lay the foundations. Some of the big budget recent ones I’ve heard really are a huge leap forward. There were some real pigs though, even in the 1980’s. Most famously, The Barbican Hall was built specifically to be the new home for the London Symphony Orchestra. It cost tens of millions and the LSO refused to play there until they fixed the acoustics. It took millions more and still isn’t particularly good!

G

Yes, good point about how a modern auditorium should first take acoustics into account, and there's still new ones that don't set that. Seems Atlanta has been mired with a new auditorium. I remember years ago they did have plans for a new auditorium that would have a 360 degree seating and would be able to seat more folks to allow for less performances. Still hasn't happened, and we have an older auditorium.

Just based on my "observer" status of C18th are that they follow a similar design (and my impression of the artists/composers is that they were "employees" that couldn't influence a design). Is it that they could be different in recording based on the overall size and dimensions of stage? Or are there more subtle differences with the audience area and stage in a C18th layout?

Dear, the venue for LSO! So for Vienna, I've been getting their summer outdoor series at Schöenbrunn Palace: pretty impressive their production for a live event outdoors.

 

[gregorio]

Seems Atlanta has been mired with a new auditorium.

I worked in the Symphony hall in the 1990’s. To be honest, I don’t remember what it sounds like, which means I wasn’t particularly impressed but also that it couldn’t have been particularly terrible.

Just based on my "observer" status of C18th are that they follow a similar design (and my impression of the artists/composers is that they were "employees" that couldn't influence a design). Is it that they could be different in recording based on the overall size and dimensions of stage?

It depends what sort of music venue. The opera houses of that period and later do all have a very similar design but it’s a quite different design to other concert venues. Concert Halls (as opposed to opera houses) were just large rectangular rooms with high ceilings in the C18th, symphony orchestras were much smaller, around 40 musicians as opposed the modern (early C20th) symphony orchestra with 90 or so and the audiences were smaller, so the concert halls were much smaller. They can be very good for smaller/mid sized ensembles. In the later C19th, the orchestras were double the size and the concert halls could be very much larger but they didn’t know much about acoustics so those concert halls are often poor or very poor.

Dear, the venue for LSO!

Yep, it was a big scandal at the time. I remember it well, shortly after it happened I started my training as music student at the Guildhall School of Music, which is also in the Barbican centre, literally next door to the Barbican Hall.

G

 

[Davesrose]

I worked in the Symphony hall in the 1990’s. To be honest, I don’t remember what it sounds like, which means I wasn’t particularly impressed but also that it couldn’t have been particularly terrible.

It depends what sort of music venue. The opera houses of that period and later do all have a very similar design but it’s a quite different design to other concert venues. Concert Halls (as opposed to opera houses) were just large rectangular rooms with high ceilings in the C18th, symphony orchestras were much smaller, around 40 musicians as opposed the modern (early C20th) symphony orchestra with 90 or so and the audiences were smaller, so the concert halls were much smaller. They can be very good for smaller/mid sized ensembles. In the later C19th, the orchestras were double the size and the concert halls could be very much larger but they didn’t know much about acoustics so those concert halls are often poor or very poor.

Yep, it was a big scandal at the time. I remember it well, shortly after it happened I started my training as music student at the Guildhall School of Music, which is also in the Barbican centre, literally next door to the Barbican Hall.

G

I don't doubt you were unimpressed with the Atlanta Symphony hall, and we still have it! So the symphony has to perform 3 nights, and I know what seats to avoid (it's a real dead zone anything in back). But the symphony itself gets some good performances. Their regular series is good, and I've heard Gustavo Dudamel as visiting director.

Good point that there were different venues for C18. I actually just looked up Vienna Operahouse and see that it's 19th century: it was always large in statute. I guess my bucket list for Europe will be catching ensembles in different concert halls that include 18th century.

 

[gregorio]

I actually just looked up Vienna Operahouse and see that it's 19th century.

Ah. I just visited, didn’t actually hear a performance. My guess would be that it’s acoustically pretty similar to most of that period, design and size, which in my experience is good in some areas/seats but moderately poor overall, with some areas/seats very poor. I recall a particular box at the Royal Opera House (London) where every piece sounded like a tuba concerto!

G

 

[Davesrose]

Ah. I just visited, didn’t actually hear a performance. My guess would be that it’s acoustically pretty similar to most of that period, design and size, which in my experience is good in some areas/seats but moderately poor overall, with some areas/seats very poor. I recall a particular box at the Royal Opera House (London) where every piece sounded like a tuba concerto!

G

These days, there's a lot of performances that are loudspeaker arrays. Ironic that last performance I saw was me an American seeing Herbie Hancock on July 4. One thing that's foreign to us is the standing crowd in back as walk ins....wonder if back then they did actually try to deaden the sound for reason to pay for seats.

 

[gregorio]

These days, there's a lot of performances that are loudspeaker arrays.

Indeed and very occasionally it’s speaker arrays where audiences are completely unaware it’s a speaker array (or partially a speaker array)! Some concert halls have sophisticated electronic enhancement. Hidden mics picking up the acoustics nearer the stage, amplified and pumped out of hidden speakers nearer the back of the auditorium, with some enhancement from from EQ and even reverb units (with custom algorithms for that particular venue). It’s pretty subtle and no one is aware of it but if you turn it on/off during rehearsals you can clearly hear the difference in the auditorium and IME, it does work/help. Kind of makes a nonsense of purists claims of “natural”, “real” and no processing/mixing on the recording.

One thing that's foreign to us is the standing crowd in back as walk ins …

Not usual but not uncommon here in Europe. Some/Many concerts and particularly with opera and ballet, ticket prices were very high. Effectively limiting them to just royalty and the aristocracy in the first half of C17th and earlier. Then the Industrial Revolution started to have an effect, a new class of wealthy industrialists emerged who wanted what the aristocracy had and, a new “upper” working class. People with limited working hours (and therefore leisure time), such as supervisors and management, who were not really rich but had disposable income. So concert halls started to be built outside of royal palaces and music composition changed (to be more pleasing/entertaining), the classical music period was born and then the Romantic period (even more entertaining), to accommodate the explosion of those with disposable income. Everything got bigger during these times but so did the costs of larger orchestras and building/operating the concert venues. So they took advantage of this market by opening up those least desirable areas of the auditorium to more of the general public, above the top row of boxes in Opera Houses and at the back of the auditorium for example, where the sound was very poor, the view was terrible but the ticket prices more affordable. This wasn’t such a “thing” in places like the USA, which didn’t have such a history or class structure and where those buying the cheaper seats still expected to get a moderate view/sound. For example, as a poor student, up in “the gods” at the Royal Albert Hall, you simply couldn’t hear any music in some of the quieter passages. The RAH, is ridiculously big though.

… wonder if back then they did actually try to deaden the sound for reason to pay for seats.

No, not that I’ve ever seen and acoustically I can’t see how it would work. “Deadening the sound” requires absorption (absorption of acoustic energy), you get cleaner/clearer sound but a lot less volume. In the opera houses and bigger concert halls the reality of the choice would be between unclear sound (with too much reverb) or little/no audible sound at all, so not much of a choice.

The situation isn’t quite so clear cut though. Most traditional orchestral instruments need a fair amount of reverb but this isn’t the case with theatres/playhouses where those same levels of reverb would destroy the intelligibility of speech. So too much reverb is just as bad as no sound at all and theatres/playhouses are much deader than concert halls (and the performers just have to speak louder). There’s speech in operas too though and a certain amount of intelligibility is desirable with the lyrics, so Opera Houses tend to be quite a bit dryer than concert halls, although not (as far as I know) by using absorption panels per se but mostly by just not using as much deliberately reflective surfaces as concert halls. With more modern amplified performances, drier is also better. So with multi-purpose venues we’ve got highly conflicting requirements, hence why some modern concert halls have adjustable acoustics and/or electronic systems.

G

EDIT: I should mention that the use of drapes is common in opera houses (and has been for a couple of centuries or so) and they are of course fairly absorbing. Also that electronic concert venue acoustic enhancement (using reverbs, etc.) goes back to the 1980’s and such systems are/can be retrofitted to even C19th opera houses/concert halls. That’s often not public knowledge though, in some instances it’s very hush-hush and not even the artists/performers know!

G

 

[Davesrose]

This wasn’t such a “thing” in places like the USA, which didn’t have such a history or class structure and where those buying the cheaper seats still expected to get a moderate view/sound. For example, as a poor student, up in “the gods” at the Royal Albert Hall, you simply couldn’t hear any music in some of the quieter passages. The RAH, is ridiculously big though.

There was some class system with some metropolitan areas in the US after the industrial revolution, but as you outlined, 18thC European opera houses were initially for aristocracy (and then also smaller venues). More recently having more areas in the US that have larger auditoriums (or with the use of modern amplification, having concert series in outside amplitheaters/stadiums).

I'm actually thinking about movie palaces now, as Atlanta has a famed one The Fox. It was originally built by the Shriners (so it has a lot of space for other functions besides the theater). The theater was designed to look Moorish, so they have an "Arabian night" motif on part of the ceiling and has quite a different visual and acoustic presentation in the upper balcony (or to be in back under the balcony). As a movie palace, it was a 20th Century Fox palace during the silent era. There's an organ system (hidden pipes all around) that they'll use for special events (like they sometimes have movie festivals). Now they get a lot of different music concerts and off Broadway acts. And as you went over, has considerations for speakers and treatments for sound systems.

 

[gregorio]

There was some class system with some metropolitan areas in the US after the Industrial Revolution …

Didn’t mean to imply there wasn’t a class system, just that it was significantly different. In Europe before and during the start of the Industrial Revolution there were some musicians/storytellers who toured the pubs but all orchestral/classical musician and composers were “patronised”, IE. They were employed as servants, either by Royalty or the church. Mozart was actually the first composer in Europe to fully break the patronage system, near the end of the C18th.

Wow, never seen anything like that as a cinema!

G

 

[Davesrose]

Didn’t mean to imply there wasn’t a class system, just that it was significantly different. In Europe before and during the start of the Industrial Revolution there were some musicians/storytellers who toured the pubs but all orchestral/classical musician and composers were “patronised”, IE. They were employed as servants, either by Royalty or the church. Mozart was actually the first composer in Europe to fully break the patronage system, near the end of the C18th.

Wow, never seen anything like that as a cinema!

G

Yeah, when you were mentioned the different venues in 18th century, I was thinking of the movie Amadeus: even though it might be fictional, the concept of court composers and then the separate entertainment for the masses. Funny thing in Vienna, you go around to the different taverns and many had Beethoven staying in an apartment during a short period.

There's still some other surviving movie palaces, but I think the Fox has always been unique. The organ is pretty impressive also since there's some large hidden areas for enormous pipes. It has a huge screen as well: don't know if they ever put in a 70mm projector system during the 60s, or if it was getting more popular as a music venue. Pretty funny how people demand higher resolution screens now, when the screens have gotten smaller. I saw the recent Avatar movie in IMAX just to see it once in stereoscopic 3D. My issue with the sound is that they had the audio way too loud (they must have some serious absorbing material in the walls for the other screens). Don't know why there's cinemaplexes that are raising sound levels to expose people to hearing damage. I feel fortunate that I have a nice home speaker setup for movies (and if I'm watching an action movie, happen to have front firing subwoofer behind my recliner to feel a rumble).

 

[gregorio]

Funny thing in Vienna, you go around to the different taverns and many had Beethoven staying in an apartment during a short period.

Vienna was pretty much where the classical music period “happened”, it was a bit like London in the mid/late 1960’s and ‘70’s for pop music. You either had to go/be there or you were heavily influenced by what happened there. Arguably even more so in the case of Vienna than London.

There’s a bit of a loudness war in cinemas over the last few years. People complain, management turn the cinema systems down, directors/producers require the mixes to be the loudness they want, so the mixes get louder to compensate, so people complain to the cinema management and you’ve got a vicious circle.

G

 

[Davesrose]

There’s a bit of a loudness war in cinemas over the last few years. People complain, management turn the cinema systems down, directors/producers require the mixes to be the loudness they want, so the mixes get louder to compensate, so people complain to the cinema management and you’ve got a vicious circle.

G

At least it's nice that home distribution now can have a presentation that's like a cinema (IE getting the best 4K specs or Atmos, DTS:X, Auro-3D). The music in Tár seems really nice in Atmos at home: not sure if there's any real audio in the height channels, but there was strong dynamics and soundstage in the symphony scenes. Nicer still all the film restorations, and seeing older movies with a better presentation (than say an umpteenth film screening of a film print). I found my ears were quite fatigued after Avatar: since adding commercials it was 4 hours of loud audio (I think IMAX has always tried advertising large wattage audio systems). Now they're also competing with formats (IE some of the 3D/larger screens being Dolby Cinema, Imax, Real3D, or the cinemaplex's own brand). I notice the big budget movies will be out in Atmos or Auro-3D depending on cinema screen (my receiver has Auro-3D, but not much home content for it...will sometimes listen to it for matrixing content). Seems like Dolby has taken off with Atmos and Dolby Vision distribution. I had seen that Auro has filed for bankrupcy protection. Do you think they'll make it, and that projects will still be including Auro-3D?

 

[gregorio]

I had seen that Auro has filed for bankrupcy protection. Do you think they'll make it, and that projects will still be including Auro-3D?

As it stands, I can’t be certain but I’d be surprised if they survive. The writing has been on the wall for not far off a decade, baring in mind the size of Dolby and the tactics they use to beat out the competition. The only realistic way they could survive as far as I can see, is if they drop the cinema stuff and come-up with some software or software based device for consumers. I don’t know what that could be though.

G

 

[Davesrose]

As it stands, I can’t be certain but I’d be surprised if they survive. The writing has been on the wall for not far off a decade, baring in mind the size of Dolby and the tactics they use to beat out the competition. The only realistic way they could survive as far as I can see, is if they drop the cinema stuff and come-up with some software or software based device for consumers. I don’t know what that could be though.

G

I don’t think they have a chance of that, as Dolby has cornered that market as well. There are some custom virtual surround technologies that other brands are doing (like Sony and DTS), but all new versions of Windows has “Dolby Atmos” (headphone and speaker surround processing output). They have a good deal with Apple Music: more albums being released in Atmos and their headphones using it for virtual surround. And then Dolby is also getting more in licensing having also gotten into imaging (more displays and smartphones recording with Dolby Vision),

 

[bigshot]

We have some amazing movie palaces in downtown Los Angeles, but the district has changed and they're at risk of disappearing one by one. https://www.discoverlosangeles.com/...-theatres-on-broadway-in-downtown-los-angeles

 

[Davesrose]

Shame that the Million might be one of them. I visited The Bradbury (across the street from it), since there's been so many movies/shows filmed around there. All the hotels offer discounts when Siggraph is happening: so have stayed at Biltmore and recognize its interiors with different shows. Now that there's a lot of productions filming in Atlanta, I recognize places here as well. Sometimes a space is saved. We had a derelict train yard that had crumbling buildings that was still being used for filming locations. Now a developer has revitalized the area to restore and purpose "experiences" and a theater, that also include new condos and apartments.