[EnOYiN]

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Originally Posted by Suzuka /img/forum/go_quote.gif How do I know if I already have Asio or not? I have X-fi card xtremegamer by creative.

Quote:

Technical Specifications 24-bit Analog-to-Digital conversion of analog inputs at 96kHz sample rate 24-bit Digital-to-Analog conversion of digital sources at 96kHz to analog 7.1 speaker output 24-bit Digital-to-Analog conversion of stereo digital sources at 192kHz to stereo output 16-bit to 24-bit recording sampling rates: 8, 11.025, 16, 22.05, 24, 32, 44.1, 48 and 96kHz ASIO 2.0 support at 16-bit/44.1kHz, 16-bit/48kHz, 24-bit/44.1kHz 24-bit/48kHz and 24-bit/96kHz with direct monitoring Enhanced SoundFont support at up to 24-bit resolution

I think it does.

The easiest way to check this is to install the ASIO plug-in in Foobar or whatever you are using and see if your soundcard produces any sound. If it does then it supports ASIO.

 

[EnOYiN]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suzuka /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am guessing x-fi supports asio, I installed asio component to foo bar but all I got was this, and got 24bit locked in.

You can change this on the menu of X-Fi itself. If you want 16-bits you've got to select it there.

 

[Suzuka]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnOYiN /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can change this on the menu of X-Fi itself. If you want 16-bits you've got to select it there.

Do I need to change it though? isn't 24 bit better or same thing anyway?

edit: another question., about volume control. Do I need to keep it maxed? Meaning both in foobar and windows volume control knob or it doesn't matter? I can control my volume from my speaker pre amp so, was wondering if keeping preset windows volume affects anything, and if it does, at what do I need to keep it.

 

[Yen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnOYiN /img/forum/go_quote.gif It probably does. ( I assume you mean USB-ASIO) The best way to check this is to grab the trail version from the website of USB-ASIO. You should try it first before buying it in my opinion. If you think it's worth the $76USD than you can always buy it afterwards. Better save than sorry. I do know for a fact that AlienDAC supports kernel streaming.

Yeah, I mean USB-ASIO.

I did download the demo, and during installation it required to plug the DAC and the software recognized the DAC. Everything worked well.

I will test it now, but #"%¤%#¤ the 30 sec beep of this demo is annoying...

 

[EnOYiN]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suzuka /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do I need to change it though? isn't 24 bit better or same thing anyway? edit: another question., about volume control. Do I need to keep it maxed? Meaning both in foobar and windows volume control knob or it doesn't matter? I can control my volume from my speaker pre amp so, was wondering if keeping preset windows volume affects anything, and if it does, at what do I need to keep it.

If all your files are 24-bit you shouldn't change it. However I guess they are not. (I am pretty good at guessing) Most files are 16-bit since they have been extracted from CDs. CD = 16-bit. Because of this mp3 = 16-bit and FLAC = 16-bit and everything else you extract from CDs is 16-bit. To get bit-perfect output you will need to set your output to 16-bit.

Quote:

Q: Will I be able to maintain bit-perfect playback when I am adjusting the volume? A: Yup.

It's in the FAQ but I only added it recently so maybe it wasn't there when you read it. The digital signal does not change when adjusting the volume.

However, I think you should use max volume to get better quality. This has nothing to do with a bit-perfect output but with the way your cmoy amplifies the signal. (assuming that you mean cmoy when you said preamp) I am not sure about this since I never used anything else than USB output. I am sure there are other people who do know this for sure. As long as you do not get any distortion I would set your volume to max untill you know for sure.

 

[EnOYiN]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yen /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, I mean USB-ASIO. I did download the demo, and during installation it required to plug the DAC and the software recognized the DAC. Everything worked well. I will test it now, but #"%¤%#¤ the 30 sec beep of this demo is annoying...

I'd give at least $5USD to make it stop. Sadly that's not enough.

 

[Yen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnOYiN /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd give at least $5USD to make it stop. Sadly that's not enough.

Dunno is it better or worse, but USB-ASIO seems to widen the soundstage a tad and brings out more details. The bass of my DT880s have more body.

But definately a good thing to pass through windows mixer. The price is however really high, compared to the "improvements" and free ASIO4ALL...

EDIT:

Listened to Matt Mays & El Torpedo - "Cocaine Cowgirl". Result: OMG the highs!

The price came a bit closer to acceptable...

 

[EnOYiN]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yen /img/forum/go_quote.gif Dunno is it better or worse, but USB-ASIO seems to widen the soundstage a tad and brings out more details. The bass of my DT880s have more body. But definately a good thing to pass through windows mixer. The price is however really high, compared to the "improvements" and free ASIO4ALL... EDIT: Listened to Matt Mays & El Torpedo - "Cocaine Cowgirl". Result: OMG the highs! The price came a bit closer to acceptable...

Well, the advantage is definitely there. USB-ASIO actually bypasses everything and goes straight to the audio device. In Vista this will be really interesting because there are even more mixers and other APOs for a signal to go through. I added a picture to the original post to make it clearer.

Just start listening to Britney Spears and you will save yourself $75.

 

[hithere]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suzuka /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am guessing x-fi supports asio, I installed asio component to foo bar but all I got was this, and got 24bit locked in.

Suzka, you don't need anything special to get bit-perfect playback on the X-fi. Go into "Audio Creation Mode", select "output" (I think that's it, it's on the lower left of the Audio Creation Mode control panel) then select "bit matched playback" at whatever the bitrate is of your source (44.1 khz for CD, FLAC, mp3 from CD sources).

Be aware all eq functions and software volume control will go away...but that's what you want...you want to control volume and eq in the analog domain, to avoid having to resample and losing information in the process. Not only are you avoiding the horrible re-sampling done in k-mixer, but you're avoiding resampling altogether (hopefully you're using the analog volume on an external amplifier).

You can use ASIO to achieve bit-perfect playback, but ASIO != bit perfect. Often, ASIO is simply used to handle resampling outside of Windows K-mixer, or to provide low latency (for applications where latency is a factor) to recording devices and the like. To have bit perfect, you have to have a soundcard or device that doesn't internally re-sample to 48 khz as a hardware function. Most Creative Labs soundcards prior to X-Fi, and the vast majority of USB soundcards are worthless when it comes to trying to achieve bit-perfect playback, because they resample to 48khz irregardless of how you feed them (If you own an Audigy 2 NX, Extigy, or Turtle Beach Roadie, I don't think there's anything you can do to achieve bit-perfect sound from 44.1 sources...you could, however, perform software resampling of your files outside of k-mixer, IIRC). If you want a cheap means to get bit-perfect playback from a PCI soundcard and stream it digitally to an external decoder/reciever via optical, then check out the Chaintech AV-710. It's $25.

I believe it's not an issue in Vista because the new version of k-mixer simply uses floating point math to determine the optimum numbers to send out in the resulting digital stream, when you're doing something like asking windows to control volume or eq. Yes, there can be numeric differences in the result, but these differences are well, well below the level of human hearing, and this process is nothing like the butchery exhibited by k-mixer. For handling audio, Vista is a fine craftsman where XP is a hamfisted dolt.

 

[tbritton]

I'm lost in one regard. Why does resampling to a higher bit rate negatively affect sound quality? Rounding errors? Phase errors? Nyquist errors and jitter? How?

I hope we are not confusing sampling rate (number of samples per second) with bit depth (16-bit vs 24-bit vs 32-bit) - using a larger "word" size should not resample anything, should it, but would merely fit the top 16 bits up front into the 24-bit word, right? The extra bit depth is very useful for performing DSP calculations with greater accuracy, so I certainly hope it is considered a good thing, especially since every single professional grade plug-in performs a bit-depth conversion upwards to 24-bit or 32-bit before applying its DSP algorithms (some automatically converting back down to 16-bit as an option afterwards). The bit depth permits finer variation between the sampled levels, since it permits many more numerical values, being a higher bit-depth word.

Terry

PS - I do see the value of avoiding resampling down to 15-bits by windows, and the benefits of ASIO there and elsewhere, just missing why the Creative Labs cards of yore that always resampled up to 48 were considered troublesome.

 

[GreatDane]

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Originally Posted by EnOYiN /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do use the same amp as you do. The Porta Corda MkIII-USB. You will indeed get better SQ by using ASIO because you are streaming through a virtual device instead of the Kmixer which is the windows default... I am sorry if you missed some of these things. Some things have been edited after you read it most likely. Thanks for replying. I hope I made some things clear here since it is kinda hard to explain all this in plain english. Edit: Here is the answer in plain english: YES!

Thanks and I appreciate your time on this topic, seeing this thread got me to finally try ASIO with foobar.

I plan to compare the ASIO to the "stock" SQ.

 

[EnOYiN]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatDane /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks and I appreciate your time on this topic, seeing this thread got me to finally try ASIO with foobar. I plan to compare the ASIO to the "stock" SQ.

Thx m8.

@ Terry

I expected someone to show up with that question. If I described some things not exactly as I should have to be exactly correct I did it to make this thread readable and to keep it somewhat more simple.

Now, for the answer. Resampling is not necessarily a bad thing. Not at all. Conventional resampling however will never increase the SQ and if done by Windows it will actually decrease the SQ. ( I am talking about bitdepth here) You are aware of this ofcourse.

If the resampling is done by a good soundcard like some X-Fis this should work really well. The main problem however is that, when using DS, the Kmixer allready resampled the bitdepth. Only afterwards the X-Fi will resample the signal which has already been set to 15-bit. (for example)

If you are using ASIO all the resampling will be done by the soundcard. (driver) And then there is no problem at all.

The new audio-architecture which is implemented in Vista will maybe present a problem for Creative. I am not sure whether they made a driver they are happy with or not.

Here is a link about resampling. According to Creative they will be able to make a better SQ than the original using some advanced resampling techniques.
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...tive-x-fi.html

And another one providing some information about the Vista audio-architecture.
http://forums.creative.com/creativel...essage.id=1694

In short: Resampling wouldn't be a problem if only the drivers used to do this in Windows would be better. I do not expect Microsoft to change this anymore since they, most likely, will concentrate on Vista now.

I hope this answer satisfies you a bit.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnOYiN /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thx m8. If the resampling is done by a good soundcard like some X-Fis this should work really well. The main problem however is that, when using DS, the Kmixer allready resampled the bitdepth. Only afterwards the X-Fi will resample the signal which has already been set to 15-bit. (for example) If you are using ASIO all the resampling will be done by the soundcard. (driver) And then there is no problem at all.

You can always use software resampler like this one http://www.mega-nerd.com/SRC/fb2k.html to avoid all resampling woes, hardware or kmixer based.

 

[tbritton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnOYiN /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thx m8. @ Terry I expected someone to show up with that question. If I described some things not exactly as I should have to be exactly correct I did it to make this thread readable and to keep it somewhat more simple. Now, for the answer. Resampling is not necessarily a bad thing. Not at all. Conventional resampling however will never increase the SQ and if done by Windows it will actually decrease the SQ. ( I am talking about bitdepth here) You are aware of this ofcourse. If the resampling is done by a good soundcard like some X-Fis this should work really well. The main problem however is that, when using DS, the Kmixer allready resampled the bitdepth. Only afterwards the X-Fi will resample the signal which has already been set to 15-bit. (for example) If you are using ASIO all the resampling will be done by the soundcard. (driver) And then there is no problem at all. The new audio-architecture which is implemented in Vista will maybe present a problem for Creative. I am not sure whether they made a driver they are happy with or not. Here is a link about resampling. According to Creative they will be able to make a better SQ than the original using some advanced resampling techniques. http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...tive-x-fi.html And another one providing some information about the Vista audio-architecture. http://forums.creative.com/creativel...essage.id=1694 In short: Resampling wouldn't be a problem if only the drivers used to do this in Windows would be better. I do not expect Microsoft to change this anymore since they, most likely, will concentrate on Vista now. I hope this answer satisfies you a bit.

Sure, EnOYiN, I understood the benefit of avoiding letting Windows get its mits on the signal. As you felt might be coming across, there was a general impression that all Creative cards that upsampled were "bad" (they did this to match the audio to their soundfont standards, as one reason, and because for a time there was a popular movement in favor of 48 over 44.1 for any card that did recording, and for direct support of SPDIF.) If Windows gives even the old AWE-32 a good signal, it can do a fine job with it - as fine as one usually would need (though its digital out for some reason had worse distortion specs than the analog out! But we're talking inaudible differences there.)

Anyway, this is a great article (and is evolving nicely!) and I hope it will get everyone to using this little piece of software!

(BTW, DTS stands for "Digital Theater Systems" sound.) http://www.google.com/search?client=...=Google+Search

Terry

 

[Joshatdot]

SB Live! 5.1 (SB0100), latest drivers from Creative (5.12.2.252), Foobar2000 v0942, ASIO4All v2 (ASIO Virtual Devices),

SB Live! Audio [9000] 1 - 32 bit - Left
SB Live! Audio [9000] 2 - 32 bit - Right
SB Live! Audio [9000] 3 - 32 bit - <None>
SB Live! Audio [9000] 4 - 32 bit - <None>
SB Live! Audio [9000] 5 - 32 bit - <None>
SB Live! Audio [9000] 6 - 32 bit - <None>

+ and - in Foobar works volume fine, Windoze WAV/MP3 Volume does not work ... does that mean I got it working correctly? And the Offline settings are what you said to do.