Article: "Why USB Cables Can Make a Difference"
Mar 6, 2016 at 9:49 AM Post #121 of 352
  OK, so I should back up.  I did start playing along presuming that in fact the cable does connect the two case grounds, just to give the benefit of the doubt that there could be an issue.  This isn't necessarily true, and could depend on the DAC design.  Maybe any reasonable DAC simply doesn't connect the USB case to ground on the DAC side.

 
Any USB DAC, which is actually a USB DAC must, by definition, be able to competently deal with a USB compliant signal (inc. power, which is also part of the USB spec). It really is that simple!
 
Quote:
Most current USB DACs operate at USB 2.0 high-speed i.e 480Mbps (480MHz). ...

 
Typical, using the marketing BS you've swallowed hook, line and sinker and then accuse someone else of regurgitating marketing BS. Just for the record, although facts don't seem to have the least bit of influence on you: 192/24 requires just 9Mbps, 16/44.1 requires 1.4Mbps. Go ahead and buy your galvanised rocks, pebbles or whatever you need to isolate the Ghz signals you're getting from somewhere ....
 
Now we are getting somewhere

 
Indeed we are; further and further into irrational reasoning, magic and BS. Thanks for playing so predictably!
 
G
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 9:50 AM Post #122 of 352
mmerrill99 you seemed to have slipped back into talking about noise on the actual signal toward the end of that last post.  I think someone covered that usb does have some error correction and resending capability.   I don't think you want to start discussing the 1's and 0's.   Let's hope not.
USB signalling is a complicated piece of engineering & digital is certainly not the "magic" that people think it is. Oh, btw, asynchronous USB does not have any error correction capability - bulk mode does but very few DACs use this mode.

Yes, noise can infect the USB signal lines D+ & D- . For people interested look up common mode noise - it's a well known issue in differential signalling
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 9:54 AM Post #123 of 352
Most current USB DACs operate at USB 2.0 high-speed i.e 480Mbps (480MHz). ...


Typical, using the marketing BS you've swallowed hook, line and sinker and then accuse someone else of regurgitating marketing BS. Just for the record, although facts don't seem to have the least bit of influence on you: 192/24 requires just 9Mbps, 16/44.1 requires 1.4Mbps. Go ahead and buy your galvanised rocks, pebbles or whatever you need to isolate the Ghz signals you're getting from somewhere ....
The more you attack me the more you show your lack of knowledge - I didn't say they needed to operate @ 480mbps, I said they have by & large settled on this speed as their USB speed for operation.

Now we are getting somewhere


Indeed we are; further and further into irrational reasoning, magic and BS. Thanks for playing so predictably!

G
Please stop with the uninformed & ignorant attacks when you are plainly wrong
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 10:07 AM Post #124 of 352
Yes, noise can infect the USB signal lines D+ & D- . For people interested look up common mode noise - it's a well known issue in differential signalling

 
So, we've just had a misrepresentation of the facts (the speed of the digital audio signal), now we've got the ignoring of the fact that digital audio is immune to noise, so this quote is BS. And:
Please stop with the uninformed & ignorant attacks when you are plainly wrong

 
Now the "really silly" insults. Thank you, I can't think of anyway in which you could have more emphatically vindicated exactly what I stated in post #105. Thanks again for playing along so precisely and predictably, it's been a real pleasure!
 
G
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 10:21 AM Post #125 of 352
@m indeed, I see you are correct, usb audio seems to use something like the usb version of UDP, and it looks like the header structure is pretty thin, about 4 bytes of a thousand, so it's probably possible to have errors without that much full packet loss.  I can't find error rates for USB 2.0  3.0 is specced at 10^-12 so a cable worse than that in a reasonable environment doesn't meet usb 3.0 specs.
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 10:27 AM Post #126 of 352
He seems to be right that digital audio usb does not use packet verification.  It seems to have been designed around usb 1.0 where there wasn't enough headroom for it.  Indeed digital protocols of this kind, and UDP is the internet analogy, are certainly not immune to noise just because they are digital.  IN fact digital audio is sent over udp at times on the internet (that's kind of what UDP is for actually, high bandwidth, latency critical, non-data critical applications) , and absolutely udp packets on the internet are lost, sometimes due to wifi noise at the last hop, other times just due to congestion.  So it's not right to say that digital audio is simply immune to noise.  That said, for local wired networks with decent (not expensive, just decent) quality cables and reasonable runs, I wouldn't expect any errors, but I have much more experience with ethernet than usb.
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 12:23 PM Post #127 of 352
I am kind of ignorant in the cases of digital audio cables. I am, however, looking to add a usb dac and headphone amplifier to my desktop computer. I have been researching usb cables to attach to my computer and most of the marketing of higher end cables seem to claim to improve jitter. Apparently this has to do with the time domain of the digital signal. Would this play into the capacitance of the wire used or is this just marketing mumbo-jumbo?
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 2:19 PM Post #128 of 352
I am kind of ignorant in the cases of digital audio cables. I am, however, looking to add a usb dac and headphone amplifier to my desktop computer. I have been researching usb cables to attach to my computer and most of the marketing of higher end cables seem to claim to improve jitter. Apparently this has to do with the time domain of the digital signal. Would this play into the capacitance of the wire used or is this just marketing mumbo-jumbo?


Mumbo jumbo.
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 5:10 PM Post #129 of 352
Yes, noise can infect the USB signal lines D+


So, we've just had a misrepresentation of the facts (the speed of the digital audio signal),
Wrong - I didn't say anything about the speed of the digital audio signal ala bit & samplerates. So please stop the false accusations.
now we've got the ignoring of the fact that digital audio is immune to noise, so this quote is BS. And:
Your form of debate "it's BS" is not really a very productive means of advancing the topic.
Please stop with the uninformed


Now the "really silly" insults. Thank you, I can't think of anyway in which you could have more emphatically vindicated exactly what I stated in post #105. Thanks again for playing along so precisely and predictably, it's been a real pleasure!

G
Ah, well, I'm sorry to see such a reluctance to discuss these matters rationally.
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 5:25 PM Post #130 of 352
Attention everyone: Please stop responding to mmerrill99 posts. If we all ignore him then maybe, just maybe, he'll go away.
 
To mmerrill99: please read all the various rules of behavior for Sound Science section posted on the main page of this section. Thank you.
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 5:38 PM Post #131 of 352
Attention everyone: Please stop responding to mmerrill99 posts. If we all ignore him then maybe, just maybe, he'll go away.

To mmerrill99: please read all the various rules of behavior for Sound Science section posted on the main page of this section. Thank you.

Read it already - can I refer you to the sticky post "How to disagree"
DH0. Name-calling.

This is the lowest form of disagreement, and probably also the most common. We've all seen comments like this:
u r a fag!!!!!!!!!!
But it's important to realize that more articulate name-calling has just as little weight. A comment like
The author is a self-important dilettante.
is really nothing more than a pretentious version of "u r a fag."

DH1. Ad Hominem.

An ad hominem attack is not quite as weak as mere name-calling. It might actually carry some weight. For example, if a senator wrote an article saying senators' salaries should be increased, one could respond:
Of course he would say that. He's a senator.
This wouldn't refute the author's argument, but it may at least be relevant to the case. It's still a very weak form of disagreement, though. If there's something wrong with the senator's argument, you should say what it is; and if there isn't, what difference does it make that he's a senator?

Saying that an author lacks the authority to write about a topic is a variant of ad hominem—and a particularly useless sort, because good ideas often come from outsiders. The question is whether the author is correct or not. If his lack of authority caused him to make mistakes, point those out. And if it didn't, it's not a problem.

DH2. Responding to Tone.

The next level up we start to see responses to the writing, rather than the writer. The lowest form of these is to disagree with the author's tone. E.g.
I can't believe the author dismisses intelligent design in such a cavalier fashion.
Though better than attacking the author, this is still a weak form of disagreement. It matters much more whether the author is wrong or right than what his tone is. Especially since tone is so hard to judge. Someone who has a chip on their shoulder about some topic might be offended by a tone that to other readers seemed neutral.

So if the worst thing you can say about something is to criticize its tone, you're not saying much. Is the author flippant, but correct? Better that than grave and wrong. And if the author is incorrect somewhere, say where.

DH3. Contradiction.

In this stage we finally get responses to what was said, rather than how or by whom. The lowest form of response to an argument is simply to state the opposing case, with little or no supporting evidence.

This is often combined with DH2 statements, as in:
I can't believe the author dismisses intelligent design in such a cavalier fashion. Intelligent design is a legitimate scientific theory.
Contradiction can sometimes have some weight. Sometimes merely seeing the opposing case stated explicitly is enough to see that it's right. But usually evidence will help.

DH4. Counterargument.

At level 4 we reach the first form of convincing disagreement: counterargument. Forms up to this point can usually be ignored as proving nothing. Counterargument might prove something. The problem is, it's hard to say exactly what.

Counterargument is contradiction plus reasoning and/or evidence. When aimed squarely at the original argument, it can be convincing. But unfortunately it's common for counterarguments to be aimed at something slightly different. More often than not, two people arguing passionately about something are actually arguing about two different things. Sometimes they even agree with one another, but are so caught up in their squabble they don't realize it.

There could be a legitimate reason for arguing against something slightly different from what the original author said: when you feel they missed the heart of the matter. But when you do that, you should say explicitly you're doing it.

DH5. Refutation.

The most convincing form of disagreement is refutation. It's also the rarest, because it's the most work. Indeed, the disagreement hierarchy forms a kind of pyramid, in the sense that the higher you go the fewer instances you find.

To refute someone you probably have to quote them. You have to find a "smoking gun," a passage in whatever you disagree with that you feel is mistaken, and then explain why it's mistaken. If you can't find an actual quote to disagree with, you may be arguing with a straw man.

While refutation generally entails quoting, quoting doesn't necessarily imply refutation. Some writers quote parts of things they disagree with to give the appearance of legitimate refutation, then follow with a response as low as DH3 or even DH0.

DH6. Refuting the Central Point.

The force of a refutation depends on what you refute. The most powerful form of disagreement is to refute someone's central point.

Even as high as DH5 we still sometimes see deliberate dishonesty, as when someone picks out minor points of an argument and refutes those. Sometimes the spirit in which this is done makes it more of a sophisticated form of ad hominem than actual refutation. For example, correcting someone's grammar, or harping on minor mistakes in names or numbers. Unless the opposing argument actually depends on such things, the only purpose of correcting them is to discredit one's opponent.

Truly refuting something requires one to refute its central point, or at least one of them. And that means one has to commit explicitly to what the central point is. So a truly effective refutation would look like:
The author's main point seems to be x. As he says:

But this is wrong for the following reasons...
The quotation you point out as mistaken need not be the actual statement of the author's main point. It's enough to refute something it depends upon.

What It Means

Now we have a way of classifying forms of disagreement. What good is it? One thing the disagreement hierarchy doesn't give us is a way of picking a winner. DH levels merely describe the form of a statement, not whether it's correct. A DH6 response could still be completely mistaken.

But while DH levels don't set a lower bound on the convincingness of a reply, they do set an upper bound. A DH6 response might be unconvincing, but a DH2 or lower response is always unconvincing.

The most obvious advantage of classifying the forms of disagreement is that it will help people to evaluate what they read. In particular, it will help them to see through intellectually dishonest arguments. An eloquent speaker or writer can give the impression of vanquishing an opponent merely by using forceful words. In fact that is probably the defining quality of a demagogue. By giving names to the different forms of disagreement, we give critical readers a pin for popping such balloons.
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 6:18 PM Post #132 of 352
Read it already - can I refer you to the sticky post "How to disagree"


Very funny. Let's cut all the BS and get right down to the real problem - you want us to help to justify your belief in all these audiophile myths and we're just not cooperating. Really what did you expect would happen when you post to section called "Sound Science"? That a witch doctor would answer?
 
What you are trying to do is the same as trying to get us to believe that 2+2=7 because that's how you perceive it. Your perception of the effect of audio cables on the sound is simply that - your perception. And your perceptions run completely counter to all the known science regarding cables and wires in a standard home audio system, not a professional studio or a deep space laboratory.
 
We ask yo for proof and post links to various articles that do not pertain cables in home audio systems. We point this out to you and you do not respond or retract your statement.
 
You demean our knowledge and question our qualification and yet you supply no information on your own qualifications.
 
You've been told many times that the Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (DBT-Free Forum) ere on Head-Fi will provide you with plenty of people who will gladly go out of their way to validate all your audiophile myths. Yet you insist on posting in the Sound Science with the foolish hope that perhaps you can convince one of us of the error of our ways and when we don't you call us close minded.
 
You really need to take a few steps back and think about exactly what it is that you trying to accomplish and the approach that you taking, because whatever it may be, your present approach is not working.
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 7:11 PM Post #133 of 352
 
Very funny. Let's cut all the BS and get right down to the real problem - you want us to help to justify your belief in all these audiophile myths and we're just not cooperating. Really what did you expect would happen when you post to section called "Sound Science"? That a witch doctor would answer?
 
What you are trying to do is the same as trying to get us to believe that 2+2=7 because that's how you perceive it. Your perception of the effect of audio cables on the sound is simply that - your perception. And your perceptions run completely counter to all the known science regarding cables and wires in a standard home audio system, not a professional studio or a deep space laboratory.
 
We ask yo for proof and post links to various articles that do not pertain cables in home audio systems. We point this out to you and you do not respond or retract your statement.
 
You demean our knowledge and question our qualification and yet you supply no information on your own qualifications.
 
You've been told many times that the Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (DBT-Free Forum) ere on Head-Fi will provide you with plenty of people who will gladly go out of their way to validate all your audiophile myths. Yet you insist on posting in the Sound Science with the foolish hope that perhaps you can convince one of us of the error of our ways and when we don't you call us close minded.
 
You really need to take a few steps back and think about exactly what it is that you trying to accomplish and the approach that you taking, because whatever it may be, your present approach is not working.

 
It was interesting at first; but his views are controversial, his replies are overwhelmingly contentious, and his behavior has to be considered troll-like at this point.  Perhaps everyone else is being a hopeless, antagonistic, confrontationalist?  
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 8:02 PM Post #134 of 352
I think people here get overly frustrated and start out a bit defensive and it doesn't help, and things get said that aren't particularly in the spirit of scientific impartiality, just out of impatience, understandable built up frustration, and a wish to shut down discussions where the end is known.   There have been several examples of that here.
 
Bits can be affected by noise in non-guaranteed protocols, and usb audio is apparently one, just normally extremely rarely if proper cable is used for the job (using cat 5, non e, if you can still find it, for gigabit ethernet on long runs is a counterexample). Bit error rates on high speed cables while not specced for usb 2 are typically speced for other cables at levels equating to a  couple per day for audio, or even much less. 
 
Digitial cables certainly do connect grounds of analog devices but it may well be true that these devices generally are made well enough to deal with it. It also seems hard to solve using the cable, certainly any way that costs more than a few cents a foot and doesn't involve an actual signal regenerator.
 
m was not talking about bandwidth, he was talking about usb frame rate, so that was also an un-needed distraction.
 
I think it's much more productive to acknowledge effects and focus on the significance (or lack there of), and invalidity of certain claimed fixes, than to give skeptics traction on the idea that real things are just  being ignored.
 
Mar 6, 2016 at 8:24 PM Post #135 of 352
I think people here get overly frustrated and start out a bit defensive and it doesn't help, and things get said that aren't particularly in the spirit of scientific impartiality, just out of impatience, understandable built up frustration, and a wish to shut down discussions where the end is known.   There have been several examples of that here.

Bits can be affected by noise in non-guaranteed protocols, and usb audio is apparently one, just normally extremely rarely if proper cable is used for the job (using cat 5, non e, if you can still find it, for gigabit ethernet on long runs is a counterexample). Bit error rates on high speed cables while not specced for usb 2 are typically speced for other cables at levels equating to a  couple per day for audio, or even much less. 
Yes, USB bit error rates are not worth worrying about - they are insignificant

Digitial cables certainly do connect grounds of analog devices but it may well be true that these devices generally are made well enough to deal with it. It also seems hard to solve using the cable, certainly any way that costs more than a few cents a foot and doesn't involve an actual signal regenerator.
Yes but everyone seems to be forgetting the difference in cable shielding between cables which can result in different levels of noise incursion @ different spectrums

m was not talking about bandwidth, he was talking about usb frame rate, so that was also an un-needed distraction.
I was talking about USB high-speed protocol, which most USB devices currently use which has a theoretical throughput of 480Mbps but an actual real-world throughput of about 65.5Mbps. The USB frame rate is a different thing - for USB high-speed it is 8 frames per mS or one frame every 125uS.Each frame can carry 1024 bytes which gives 65.5Mbps

I think it's much more productive to acknowledge effects and focus on the significance (or lack there of), and invalidity of certain claimed fixes, than to give skeptics traction on the idea that real things are just  being ignored.
My initial point was that cable shield differences between cables can certainly make a difference & I posted measurements for USB cable & a technical document explaining Shield Current induced Noise

BTW, thanks for trying to introduce some rationality to this thread!
 

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