Are there any other headphones that have the same surround effect as Ultrasones?
Aug 14, 2008 at 5:28 AM Post #16 of 106
There is first the idea of the S-Logic "surround effect".
There is second the idea of being able to hear the S-Logic "surround effect".
The S-Logic "surround effect" most definitely exists. I have definitely heard it many times via the Proline 750 headphones.
I am sorry that some can't experience (for whatever reason) the pleasure of the S-Logic "surround effect" the way that I do.
 
Aug 14, 2008 at 5:58 AM Post #17 of 106
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew_WOT /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Surround effect? Never heard one out of Ultrasones I owned.


so, what would you called it ?
confused.gif


Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif
These two comments from Reb and jamato are testaments of how truly great some Ultrasone headphones apparently are. The idea that they can't hear the S-Logic effect and they still think that Ultrasone makes great headphones really says something, IMO. Please read the first post (mine) in the thread "The Sound of the Ultrasone Proline (Pro) 750" (link to this thread in my signature area). This post describes the way I hear the Proline 750 sound stage and I also write about the theories of why some people are unable to hear the Proline 750 (S-Logic) sound stage the way it is meant to be heard by the Ultrasone developers.
Believe me, I've experienced the S-Logic "surround effect" myself. I can assure you that it is no marketing ploy but, indeed, a very real audio feature of the Pro 750.



agree with Peter here...
wink.gif


Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There is first the idea of the S-Logic "surround effect".
There is second the idea of being able to hear the S-Logic "surround effect".
The S-Logic "surround effect" most definitely exists. I have definitely heard it many times via the Proline 750 headphones.
I am sorry that some can't experience (for whatever reason) the pleasure of the S-Logic "surround effect" the way that I do.



x2...
 
Aug 14, 2008 at 6:41 AM Post #18 of 106
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joelc87 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If you want a huge soundstage get some Grado GS-1000's.


Yabba-dabba-solutely. Those eleventynormous ear pads not only give great spacial impression, but fantastic detail, while the drivers provide plenty o' impressive bass response one mightn't expect given their distance from the ear. And couple this pair with an amp that offers crossfeed, such as the HeadRoom line, and you've got a live concert inside/outside of your skull.

Oh, and in a pinch, for about 45 dollars American, you can order the gs-1000 salad bowl pads for fitting onto, say, the Grado sr-225s or sr-325is, and get a grand impression of the kind of space and detail the motherphones provide.
 
Aug 14, 2008 at 7:45 AM Post #20 of 106
Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Correct. That's all there is to it, the rest is just Ultrasone marketing BS. Offset drivers do make a difference, though, but it's not any kind of magic or unique technology.

I never noticed any kind of unique soundstaging effect from the 2500. Soundstage was pretty nice though, not too big but nicely separated, with good imaging and space between instruments.

Just about any kind of headphone with good soundstage will give you similar results, though. What you want is a headphone specifically with good imaging - K340, K501, HD650 balanced (single-ended is too fuzzy and diffuse), and of course electrostatics like O2 (but not so much 404 and similar Lambda-style 'stats) all have really good imaging.

Imaging was definitely one of the 2500's strenghts, and the only headphone in the pricerange that was outright better at it was the K340.



The S-Logic technology is highly unique. Indeed, it is so unique that it was awarded patents. A technology that isn't unique and one that is too similar to other technologies already extant can not be patented.
Please read my post #16 in this thread.
 
Aug 14, 2008 at 7:54 AM Post #22 of 106
The following was written by Florian Koenig:

"...the technology behind the S-Logic [is] based on the following principles:

* For circum-aural headphones, the speaker needs to be placed at an angle of 30 to 40 degree de-centric (lower/frontally based on the hear channel). The bufferboard should be acoustically hard (reflect for lower frequencies) and damp (for higher frequencies). The upper area of the speaker is to close or damp at about 30 percent of the diaphragm-reflecting zone to optimize the de-centric placement optionally.
* For supra-aural headphones, the speaker needs to be positioned near the centric or slightly lower on the ear channel. The bufferboard should be acoustically hard for the total frequency range. The upper area of the speaker is to close at about 50 percent of the diaphragm-reflecting zone, creating a de-centric placed sound source in front of the ear channel.
* The ear pad needs to be chosen to ensure tone with maximum emphasis free of colorations. For open headphones, a velvet or cloth surface is preferred. For closed headphones, the ear pad should be genuine or synthetic leather.

The speaker should be gold or Titanium-mylar diaphragm and developed for an extremely hard burst response (THD spectral delay time at frequencies greater than 1 kHz about 0,9 ms). The drivers allow for very low frequency tone signals (<40 Hz) without phase-masking effects and without the perception of the real tone signal (not the THD) first (transmission frequency could be offered up to 35 kHz). These tone-neutral aspects are important in the reproduction of the clearest and cleanest natural spatial sound, effects and the lateral wall reflections, phases as a function of high dynamic audio signals (>100 dB).
The development of new headphones is a permanently growing process led, in part, by new technology and market desires, but the metamorphosis of steps from mono to stereo to S-Logic (natural surround sound) has had to proceed sequentially to fully understand the effects of each on future technology. A documentation of the results of the past makes it possible for bi-directional observations of the acoustics effects.

In studying the past, it is clear that S-Logic is the only way to influence stereo or channel tone signals to produce a 3-dimensional auditory event without any digital, binaural processing, apart from the mean human HRTF of a dummy-head (hint: recordings with more ambient feeling, but the old well-known above in the head localization). The human outer ear (pinna) fluctuates more than 15dB at frequencies less than 1kHz (standard deviation 6 KHz =7dB!). These individual hearing realities cannot be served with only one headphone. HRTF is the only logical consequence. And, since the tone recordings offer no 3-directional information regarding common pan-pot stereophonic recording techniques, the only solution is S-logic.

Unique to the Ultrasone is its patented S-Logic technology. S-Logic utilizes decentralized transducer position to reflect sound off the listener's pinna, or outer ear, creating a natural 3-dimensional sensation without the use of processing. Whereas standard headphones create the impression of stereo image within the listeners' head, S-Logic produces a stereophonic surround sound field that is perceived to be broad, detached, and located in front of the listener. Ultrasone is the only headphone manufacturer to directly address the physiology of the ear rather than use electronics to generate a stereophonic sound field.

Moreover, since the headphone transducers are not aimed directly at the auditory canal, listeners perceive the same volume with up to 40 percent lower sound pressure levels. This may significantly reduce risk of hearing damage while ensuring hours of fatigue-free listening - an absolute must if you spend half of your life in headphones.

Finally, most headphone drivers today convert an electric signal into an acoustical signal, producing low-frequency magnetic fields. Medical research shows that these emissions can be hazardous to our health. In response, we developed special MU metal shields to reduce the radiation up to 98 percent compared to current headphones. The patented PROline (ultra low-emission) technology has stood the test of international review and is recommended by technical surveillance organizations."

Recommended and scientific papers around S-Logic and PROline are available from the Audio Engineering Society (ww.aes.org) published in 1995/1995/1997/2001/2004.

Florian M. Koenig is the founder and chief technical officer of Ultrasone.
 
Aug 14, 2008 at 1:50 PM Post #23 of 106
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The S-Logic technology is highly unique. Indeed, it is so unique that it was awarded patents. A technology that isn't unique and one that is too similar to other technologies already extant can not be patented.
Please read my post #16 in this thread.



Sorry dude but a patent isn't something you are rewarded. It's something you pay for.
And as long as you are quicker than everyone else to patent a very basic technology its yours.

(And I'm getting really annoyed by your insane ultrasone crusade, I respect you for wanting others to listen and like ultrasones but this is way too much!)
 
Aug 14, 2008 at 3:02 PM Post #24 of 106
Quote:

Originally Posted by iQEM /img/forum/go_quote.gif
so, what would you called it ?
confused.gif



They have no better spatial presentation or soundstage than any other phones I own or used to own. Off center drivers is not something new, audio technica started doing this long time ago, combined with angled drivers it produces much more real and spacious "surround" effect. Partially covered drivers? Take pads off Denon D2000 and take a look.
Have phones with centered drivers? Give this a try and turn them into off-center.
Meier Audio
So much for patented S-Logic.
tongue.gif


Quote:

Originally Posted by adamse /img/forum/go_quote.gif
(And I'm getting really annoyed by your insane ultrasone crusade, I respect you for wanting others to listen and like ultrasones but this is way too much!)


X1000
 
Aug 14, 2008 at 3:31 PM Post #25 of 106
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The following was written by Florian Koenig:

"...the technology behind the S-Logic [is] based on the following principles:
.........



And here all along I thought it was pixie dust.
wink.gif


Seriously though I own a pair of 2500s, and to me they sound more open then all of the Grados, AKG, etc. that I have tried. They did not sounds as sonically accurate as the RS-1s I tried, but listening to music through them sounded very natural and enjoyable (for which I attribute to the openness).
 
Aug 14, 2008 at 3:37 PM Post #26 of 106
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
pd_akg_k1000_141206.jpg



Can't go much wrong, sound stage wise, with one of these..
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Aug 14, 2008 at 5:18 PM Post #27 of 106
dt880/dt990
 
Aug 14, 2008 at 5:22 PM Post #28 of 106
Quote:

Originally Posted by adamse /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Sorry dude but a patent isn't something you are rewarded. It's something you pay for.
And as long as you are quicker than everyone else to patent a very basic technology its yours.

(And I'm getting really annoyed by your insane ultrasone crusade, I respect you for wanting others to listen and like ultrasones but this is way too much!)



You are both wrong and right. A patent IS something you are awarded (I did not say "rewarded", I said "awarded" in my previous post), and yes, the patent is paid for by the inventor.
Yes, the first one to patent a technology becomes the holder of the patent.

(And, it's just too bad you don't like something I write in my posts because I will continue to write what I please. I'm not on any crusade but I do want the other members to know what I regard as the truth about not only Ultrasone's headphones but other headphones with which I have experience.)
 
Aug 14, 2008 at 5:32 PM Post #29 of 106
Quote:

Originally Posted by adamse /img/forum/go_quote.gif
(And I'm getting really annoyed by your insane ultrasone crusade, I respect you for wanting others to listen and like ultrasones but this is way too much!)


Crusade. I can't think of a better way of describing this.

Also, I don't think the OP was asking why he can hear such a large sound stage with his ultrasones but rather if other headphones have a similar effect. While I haven't heard ultrasones before (nor do I plan to anytime soon), I think it is safe to say that as long as you aren't trying on Grado's you'll get the sound stage you want if not more from other headphones.

Btw I don't think many people use "normal headphones" here lol.
 
Aug 14, 2008 at 5:37 PM Post #30 of 106
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew_WOT /img/forum/go_quote.gif
They have no better spatial presentation or soundstage than any other phones I own or used to own. Off center drivers is not something new, audio technica started doing this long time ago, combined with angled drivers it produces much more real and spacious "surround" effect. Partially covered drivers? Take pads off Denon D2000 and take a look.
Have phones with centered drivers? Give this a try and turn them into off-center.
Meier Audio
So much for patented S-Logic.
tongue.gif



X1000



Wrong, just plain wrong, IMO. The audio technica sound and sound stage, at least their phones that I've heard, does not sound nearly as pleasing as that of the Pro 750, IMO. As far as the placement of the drivers is concerned. It is different when comparing them. It isn't the same build and placement as the S-Logic technology. And, S-Logic definitely sounds better, IMO. The S-Logic is definitely a unique technology. If you think it isn't, I suggest you do some more research because you have been vastly misinformed.
 

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