Are headphone amps pointless...
Aug 8, 2008 at 4:37 PM Post #76 of 158
Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadLover /img/forum/go_quote.gif
But I still belive it, and I think I can hear some different (just not 10x times better, maybe more like 10% better)


So in the end, you buy whether you believe to be best sounding to your ear - I believe that is what you are saying? Perhaps there are people who share the same idea of buying what sound better to their ears, just not the same as that sound good to your ears?

I think the point is, not everyone can 'hear' difference b/w $1000 and $100 cable, or headphone-out b/w an integrated amp and headphone amp. What you believe to be 10% improvement could well be 1% in others' ears. Money should be spent according to one's ears, not general opinion of which is better than what. Just my $.02.
 
Aug 8, 2008 at 6:09 PM Post #77 of 158
I have 6 headphone amps and three integrated amps. The integrated amps are from 1973(Nikko) , 1985(NAD) and 2000 (Rotel) . The 1973 Nikko holds its own against my portable headphone amps driving my most awkward headphones and is (almost) noiseless at all volmes but also has several advantages, it was much cheaper, has three line level inputs and will drive speakers after a fashion, it only has 12wpc. On the other had my relatively modern Rotel has what I can only describe as a poor headphone socket but is very acceptable as a speaker amp...
 
Aug 9, 2008 at 12:56 AM Post #78 of 158
Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadLover /img/forum/go_quote.gif
[...]
Sure some very high quality amps, may already have a good headphones amp on it
I am sure that when u buy a 5000-7000$ NAD, you expect the headphones amp to sound good!

If it was bad, probably NAD won't sell that much and people won't buy it, right?
[...]



No, because most people buying speakers-amps will make their selection based on how well they drive speakers - which, for them, will be their main or nearly-only use. Many speakers-users, even among the "audiophiles", don't have top-high-end headphones (sometimes don't even use headphones), they would more often have mid to low-high end ones. So, they wouldn't care THAT much if the headphones out is just average.


As for the quality/price ratio of an integrated vs. a dedicated headamp, for the sole purpose of driving headphones: if you were to build/manufacture them according to the same processes and pricing, there's no way the polyvalent solution could be better than the dedicated one (because, then, you'd build the dedicated amp using the exact same topology, and since you'd take a few functions out like the speakers connectors, it'd be slightly cheaper).
However:
- the markets are different, and if you take the second-hand market into account you might be lucky enough to get a great integrated for a very cheap price
- the difference between amps can be more subtle than the one between headphones, and when comparing, one may be more sensitive to differences of sound signature (trebble or bass emphasis, etc...) than to detail, separation, etc...

For someone who does not need to drive speakers and has no amp at all, taking a headphone amp is probably the better solution (especially when taking DIY solutions into account, starting with trying the cheapests of them all), unless having some uncanny luck on an antiques' auction.
 
Aug 9, 2008 at 1:56 AM Post #79 of 158
are just there as an added feature or convience and not fully concieved. So, most, but by far not all headphone sections on integrated amps, and preamps, are usually at best an added IC circuit that was not fine tuned for a best performance. Some exceptions have been noted, for example the headphone section of Adcoms GFT 400 and GFP 565 are above average. The headphone section in my home cd players are medocre at best (and thats giving them a more posative than they really are).
So what does a headphone amp add? Better dynamics and often better detail. This of course a matter of amp and headphone matching in both cases. Another plus of a headphone amp can be less coloration, distortion and a more even frequency response. The headphone amp will also drive more difficult headphones much better than many of the added on headphone sections. And one other advantage, less energy used, recivers and integrated amps are idling, getting hot, while a headphone amp is a more dedicated and efficent (generaly) approach.

Tim
 
Aug 9, 2008 at 10:13 AM Post #81 of 158
Quote:

Originally Posted by DefectiveAudioComponent /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Whether that is so is what the eight previous pages are discussing.


And a couple of other threads. But let's continue to repeat shattered myths instead of the data.

Tim
 
Aug 9, 2008 at 1:03 PM Post #82 of 158
Quote:

Originally Posted by DefectiveAudioComponent /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Whether that is so is what the eight previous pages are discussing.


Indeed, and I'd be most grateful if posters would acquaint themselves with the content and thrust of the discussion before posting. I'll consider fire bombing the next poster who tries to convince us that all headphone outlets in speaker amps are just cheap IC add-ons, not properly designed. Please, guys, read the earlier posts.

Just to clarify an earlier post of mine, I wasn't suggesting that any old $300 integrated is likely to be as good as a $1000 dedicated, but rather that it conceivable could be. I was in fact not over-lauding $300 integrateds, but questioning the design of many $1,000 dedicateds. I'm reminded of a review I read of a dedicated amp which shall remain nameless. The reviewer thought it OK, but decided to experiment himself and swapped whatever op amp the designer had used (interesting that this quite expensive amp was op amp based) for an AD823. He thought this a great improvement and reported back to the designer, who tried it himself and agreed. He (the designer) then re-designed the circuit around the AD823 and that's the product as it is now. Now, you might say it's great that the designer should be so open to suggestions for improvement, and it is. On the other hand if the reviewer, not himself a designer, could come up with a better design on the spur of the moment, how good was the original, and what would have happened had the reviewer not decided to experiment? The AD823 is a very common, relatively cheap op amp; why had the designer not thought to try it? The fact is, most dedicateds are designed and made by miniscule (sometimes one-man) companies which have nowhere near the design resources or opportunities for economies of scale of those producing mainstream integrateds. It's a different ball-game, and those who say a $500 dedicated has to be better than a $500 intregrated because all the money has gone into the single purpose of correctly driving headphones are not facing the realities of mass market design and manufacture. The major manufacturers are in the business of squeezing a gallon out of a quart pot, and when you take a hard look at what Rotel or Marantz can offer for a few hundred dollars in terms of component quality and design sophistication you begin to realize what an incredibly inefficient cottage industry the dedicated amp industry is (if it can be so called). I'm not criticising it; I'm just saying.
 
Aug 9, 2008 at 3:03 PM Post #83 of 158
Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
[...]The fact is, most dedicateds are designed and made by miniscule (sometimes one-man) companies which have nowhere near the design resources or opportunities for economies of scale of those producing mainstream integrateds.


It really depends. They may not have the size to get the cheapest possible mass prices and economies of scale on components and production chain, nor can field dozens of engineers to work on a single product (with R&D costs divided a large number of produced units). On the other side, some of them do have a lot of time, and will dedicate it to testing, experimenting, and perfecting their designs. And when taking DIY into account, we're buying the time and dedicated effort of great designers for free.


Quote:

It's a different ball-game, and those who say a $500 dedicated has to be better than a $500 intregrated because all the money has gone into the single purpose of correctly driving headphones are not facing the realities of mass market design and manufacture. The major manufacturers are in the business of squeezing a gallon out of a quart pot, and when you take a hard look at what Rotel or Marantz can offer for a few hundred dollars in terms of component quality and design sophistication you begin to realize what an incredibly inefficient cottage industry the dedicated amp industry is (if it can be so called). I'm not criticising it; I'm just saying.


On the other side, if they can win $10 per unit by taking cheaper parts for a functionality very few users will consider as important, they will. $10 per unit, that's a $10k gain if you sell 1,000 units, and the more mass-market this is, the higher the gain.
Fact is, the headphone out is a very secondary function for most users of speaker-amps (whether mass-market or mid-end). That's why you can try gaining a few bucks on it, without too many people noticing - by taking a less expensive opamp, by implementing a less expensive topology, etc...

So at the end, you really pay for different things:
- a secondary function, in a product which main goal is another duty, but which price has been squeezed thanks to a larger market and more rational management. As this is a secondary function, you don't know if it's been taken as great care of as the other ones - maybe the company decided to cut some costs there, as those who'd really care are a minority, maybe it decided that everything is as important, even if for only a very small part of their customers.
- a primary function, that has been developed and built by a less efficient company, in a small market where both great makers and overpriced lousy equipment can be found. Design and production cost (per unit) are higher, but you don't pay for functions you don't need.
- a primary function, that has been developed "for free" to you, where the building cost is your own time, plus the price of components - bought in small batch, thus not as cheap as mass-market companies could buy. However, you must have some spare time, know how to use a soldering iron, have the equipment to make a nice case, etc...
 
Aug 9, 2008 at 3:13 PM Post #84 of 158
we have too much moolahs to spend :p

nah seriously, if you think your amp works good and well with the headphone then sure, there is no point in buying headphone amps...

however, if you can by chance or something compare your amp and the headphone amp together maybe you might want one
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Aug 9, 2008 at 4:55 PM Post #85 of 158
Quote:

Originally Posted by Turgidson /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Fact is, the headphone out is a very secondary function for most users of speaker-amps (whether mass-market or mid-end). That's why you can try gaining a few bucks on it, without too many people noticing - by taking a less expensive opamp, by implementing a less expensive topology, etc...


Less expensive opamp? How about a couple of resistors?
biggrin.gif


it sounds like you missed the earlier thread.
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Aug 9, 2008 at 9:18 PM Post #86 of 158
Quote:

Originally Posted by Navyblue /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Less expensive opamp? How about a couple of resistors?
biggrin.gif


it sounds like you missed the earlier thread.
smily_headphones1.gif



A bunch of resistors would qualify as "a less expensive topology".
 
Aug 9, 2008 at 11:20 PM Post #87 of 158
pp312;4585091 said:
Indeed, and I'd be most grateful if posters would acquaint themselves with the content and thrust of the discussion before posting. I'll consider fire bombing the next poster who tries to convince us that all headphone outlets in speaker amps are just cheap IC add-ons, not properly designed. Please, guys, read the earlier posts.

So, yes I did read them, and as I noted exceptions do occur. By far not all headphone outputs on recievers and other non-headphone amp equipment is very good, but can be execellent in some cases. No, I have not heard every one out there, but I have heard enough to say that not all out there are bad or good. Most are just average, with some being really bad, a few stellar example out there as well. Just as stand alone amps in "General" tend to sound better than recievers or integrated amps, headphone amps tend to (but not always) sound better. As with every thing, I have not heard them all, and I can only stand behind what I have heard in regardes to comments. So I am sorry if I offended any one for saying that many (but not all) receiver/integrated amp headphone sections are not the best out there! just my opinions on what I have heard.
 
Aug 9, 2008 at 11:36 PM Post #88 of 158
Picked up a Denon AVR 3600 a couple of weeks back as it was being given away. Originally this thing retailed for almost three grand in Canada. I was excited and curious to hear the headphone output. Sadly, my Gilmore Lite crushed it using both low and high impedance phones. The GL has also far exceeded the headphone outputs of both an H/K 247 and 645 receiver, and a Yamaha 6090B.
I was cynical about headphone amps for a long, long time, but broke down and decided to experiment with one, so I got the Gilmore Lite. I'm far less cynical now.
 
Aug 9, 2008 at 11:57 PM Post #89 of 158
Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I didn't say that headphone amps don't matter, I said that the conventional wisdom that the headphone sections of most integrateds and receivers are an afterthought is false. I stand by it. Resistors are cheap, that doesn't make them ineffective. High-end stepped attenuators are full of them. There are some potential problems with resistored-down headphone outs. I mentioned them in my other post.

Regarding my experience: I just spent a week with a Glow Audio Amp One. A point to point wired, SET (actually pentodes, EL84s used in triode configuration) tube amp. I own an Airhead. I have heard a couple of Headroom's home products, the headphone section of a McIntosh tube preamp, my own digital class D receiver and a Linn. But really, none of that matters. I don't have to hear any headphone amps to know what good audio sounds like. I have decades of experience listening to and working with high end and professional audio. I know good sound reproduction when I hear it. I understand what balance, detail, transient response, low and high frequency extension, coherence, etc, etc, sounds like. Headphone listening removes the anomalies of a room (and I've heard plenty of studio control rooms with the anomalies tuned out), and removes all chance of a natural sound stage. Other than that, all listening experience applies. Your argument, which is little more than an attempt to dismiss a differing opinion, is not logical. Headphone amps are not the only source of quality audio. They are not even the primary source of quality audio. I do not need to have heard even one of them to be able to recognize quality audio.

Tim



Sorry, I didn't see any headphone amps in your signature... I didn't look at your profile. I don't remember saying headphone amps are the the only source of quality audio
confused_face(1).gif
. My point was that dedicated headphone amps sound better than any headphone jack I've ever heard (and I've heard a lot of them). Maybe it's because I have really resolving cans... who knows.
 
Aug 10, 2008 at 12:12 AM Post #90 of 158
One thing I just thought of... what about balanced headphones, which are pretty much considered to be far superior by most headphone junkies? How many speaker amps can do balanced headphones?
 

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