[Joey_V]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born2bwire Generally, the only time I notice when someone here migrates to an expensive speaker rig is when they sell off their headphones.

Like me!

 

[geforcewong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman Let's be realistic here guys - we're audiophiles, which means, often times, we're also great consumers. Buying $60 speakers is a BAD CONSUMER PURCHASE.

Just a correction that probably wont affect your views: it's not $60 for a pair of the infinity speakers, it's $60 each (Actual retail price around $198). There's a stereophile review of these speakers if your interested (with subjective comparisons between paradigm and atoms similarly priced:

http://stereophile.com/standloudspea...ity/index.html

Although I agree with a lot of Aman's points, I think we should be considerate of one's personal budget. Remember, not everyone has hundreds or thousands of dollars to splurge exclusively on audio equipment, especially if they have other hobbies or living expenses to worry about. I also think it's harsh to call people dumb just because they don't want to spend over $100-$200 on speakers and are satisfied with their Athenas or Fluances. If people are happy with them, let them be. I must also agree with NotJeffBuckley, that generally speaking, audiophiles aren't great consumers (unless your definition is spending all your money for a little better performance). A good (smart) consumer would try to maximize benefits and utility given budget constraints (bang for the buck philosophy). Audiophiles definately belong to the small niche of consumers whos demand are relatively inelastic to price fluctuations as a majority of consumers. We are extremists when it comes to the performance of our audio gear

.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman This is exactly what I'm referring to. What the hell kind of hi-fi is this? This speaker gives performance that even the Koss PortaPros can defeat! NOBODY should own stereo speakers that cost $60 dollars for a pair. Do you realize that Infinity probably puts $15 into the construction of ONE PAIR of these things? How can you expect anything near quality with that?

When you're done raving, go look at the price... they're $90 apiece (regular price), not $60/pair.

But according to your price argument, if Koss sold the Portapro for $10,000 you'd buy it as a high end headphone and talk about how it smashes the Orpheus. You seem to believe in a linear relationship between price and fidelity, and if so you are the 'dumb' one who gives your wallet the vote rather than your ears. I can only assume this, since you didn't know the real price of the speakers referred to and clearly have never heard them.

You should really hear something before either panning or praising it. To me, it's more dumb to attack something based on price without hearing it than trying to maximize one's budget by spending carefully on a mid-fi but good sounding pair of speakers.

 

[saint.panda]

I actually don't mind reading speaker recommendations on Headfi as well because in most cases you already know whose opinions are credible and almost all of the speaker recommendation threads I've read on Headfi rarely mention $100 speakers, or only if the thread specifically sets a budget limit to that amount.

To be honest I don't see anything wrong with asking for speaker advice for under $100. After all, not everybody is rich or totally nuts about audiophilia.

In any case, if we're talking monetary value, all commercial speakers are pretty horrible value in my eyes. With a bit of soldering skills, a design layout, which can be either purchased or more often acquired for free from the DIY community, and a bit of money, you can easily build speakers that resell for 3-10 times the price, and closer to 10x in the upper price regions. If DIY is not an option, I think that that even studio monitors are better value than commerical hifi speakers for under $1000-1500.

And even with only $100-150, I think it's possible to get quite a decent speaker rig from ebay if one is willing to buy a bit more vintage. It won't get you an ESL 63, let alone the amp to drive it, but I was rather surprised by how good some vintage speakers sounded and how the differences were smaller than I thought, at least compared to the differences between home cd players of approximately the same age difference.

 

[rsaavedra]

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Originally Posted by Aman But I just don't understand the general mentality of Head-Fiers when it comes to speakers. Do people really expect to be able to hear ANYTHING decent from a pair of $100 paradigm or athena speakers?

Short answer: Yes.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman I understand that people don't want to spend thousands of dollars, but why don't people at least save up for a little while and buy something that will last them for more than one year?

I think your statement is pretty analogous to saying noone can spend less than $X money on headphones and expect to hear anything decent, or expect (for example) their SR60's to last a year. I've had my SR60's for about 4 years now, still very happy with them, even though I have more expensive headphones. I've had my Paradigm Titans+Atoms+PDR12 home theater rig for a similar number of years, use it in stereo mode for music, and still very happy with it, both for music and home theater. Very decent sound, in fact better than I've heard from more expensive speakers, particularly badly setup and matched. Who cares if someone doesn't want to call the SR60's or those speakers "Hifi"? They do sound decent and can give you way more than 1 year of sound enjoyment.

 

[nabwong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman Let's be realistic here guys - we're audiophiles, which means, often times, we're also great consumers. Buying $60 speakers is a BAD CONSUMER PURCHASE.

I'm going to give a whole lot of crape to anyone who recommends any headphones below $100, px100, ksc35, ksc75, sr60, ms1, hd201, e2c, etc.... These headphones are crap and not audiophile standard. What the hell is the community thinking recommending these when one has already listened to the hd650, k701 and RS1?!?!?!?!?!!

 

[mulveling]

Quote:

Originally Posted by geforcewong I must also agree with NotJeffBuckley, that generally speaking, audiophiles aren't great consumers (unless your definition is spending all your money for a little better performance).

Having heard a couple well designed high end systems - if you're only getting a little more performance for a lot of money then you're not putting the system together right.

 

[warpdriver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman This is exactly what I'm referring to. What the hell kind of hi-fi is this? This speaker gives performance that even the Koss PortaPros can defeat! NOBODY should own stereo speakers that cost $60 dollars for a pair. Do you realize that Infinity probably puts $15 into the construction of ONE PAIR of these things? How can you expect anything near quality with that?

Listen dude....I was actually agreeing with your posts up till this point.
Go back and read some of my previous posts in this thread.

Have you even heard these speakers? I have, and I will continue to recommend them, even though I just walked out of an audio store last week fresh from listening to $1500 Dynaudio speakers. In fact, I have heard these Primus speakers right beside some Totem Mite's and Rainmakers, an $600/$900+ pair of entry level hi-fi minimonitor which earn a lot of respect in hifi forums.

It's this kind of brand and price snobbery that we don't need. While I did agree with you that there is a lot of inexperience of members in this forum, I disagree with your criteria for good speakers. Did I say the Infinity's are hi-fi? I did not. Are they flawed? Of course. Did I say that they are listenable and enjoyable? I am saying yes, even in spite of the existence of other big dollar speakers. These Primus are like KSC-75's, not close to being the best, but even an audiophile could put these in his den and enjoy them. A true audiophile listens to the speaker, and makes judgement on sound quality, not price. If you had listened to these speakers, you may actually recognize the fact that the detail of these speakers can compare to much more expensive designs, and might actually like them. But of course, you would not give them the time of day because they are too cheap.

 

[NotoriousBIG_PJ]

I'm happy enough with my $100 moonsoon speakers and stock soundcard. ^^

Biggie.

 

[AlanY]

One thing no one has mentioned yet is that some of the cheaper speakers, including the Athena and Infinity Primus speakers, actually measure quite a bit better than some much higher-end speakers.

If you don't believe me, compare the Athena measurements:
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/me...s/athena_asb1/
to the Zu Druid ($4000):
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/me...zucable_druid/
or to the Totem Rainmaker:
http://stereophile.com/standloudspea...em/index3.html

(The Zu Druid comparison isn't really fair, because those are a typical example of expensive speakers that sound bad (yes, I've heard them -- I spent a half hour with them locally) but generate perpetual good reviews from owners online. If you drop $4000 on speakers, of course your bias is going to be positive.)

Anyway, measurements aren't everything, but having a clean frequency response and a smooth power response suggests that you're not getting a bad value for your money with some of these very cheap speakers.

A lot of the criticism is more based on snobbery than performance.

 

[VicAjax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman This is exactly what I'm referring to. What the hell kind of hi-fi is this? This speaker gives performance that even the Koss PortaPros can defeat! NOBODY should own stereo speakers that cost $60 dollars for a pair. Do you realize that Infinity probably puts $15 into the construction of ONE PAIR of these things? How can you expect anything near quality with that? Sure, some people may want speakers for a good value, but we are also audiophiles! Recommending cheap, toy-quality speakers to people like us is like recommending a 15 inch LCD monitor to a computer user, for his workstation, whose laptop has a 17 inch monitor to begin with! It just doesn't fit. Sure, you'll have to put out some more beans to be able to reach similar quality to headphones (not all the time), but in the long run, you will be using these speakers for enjoyment and they are just as much of an investment as any other speaker. Unless you live a lifestyle as undestructive as the Dallai Lama's, I can guarantee you that speakers that cost under 100 dollars will not give you anything near the satisfaction that a speaker only one hundred dollars more would!

here's the thing though. everything is about trade offs, and there are values to be had at many price points, as well as utter rip-offs.

i'll continue to take the athena AS-B1, since those are the budget speakers i've had most recent experience with.

they are bright and jagged on the top end, sure.
but take the $1500 Sonus Faber Concertina: it does almost everything better than the athenas, as it should. however, for me, it's too laid back and too warm. so at 15x the price, that becomes a deal-breaker.

or the new $700 Revel Concerta M12 monitors. they've got a mid-bass hump that's more pronounced than the athenas. sure they're overall better, but still a trade-off.

i know you absolutely love your new ohms. i don't blame you, the walshes i've heard were very sweet sounding and absorbing. HOWEVER (while i haven't listened side-by-side), i'd say the athenas actually image better than those full-sized walshes. but yeah, the walshes would outperform everywhere else.

Quote:

Let's be realistic here guys - we're audiophiles, which means, often times, we're also great consumers. Buying $60 speakers is a BAD CONSUMER PURCHASE.

no more so than buying a $500 wooden volume knob.

sound is about trade-offs, just as budget is about trade-offs.
and sound at nearly any budget is about trade-offs.

while one can never say the athenas are "high-end," who's to say that, within their specific budget range, it isn't fair to call them "audiophile?"

having said all that, i personally would not build a two-channel set-up for myself without a dedicated room and at least $5000 to spare. which is why i skulk around this place so much.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanY One thing no one has mentioned yet is that some of the cheaper speakers, including the Athena and Infinity Primus speakers, actually measure quite a bit better than some much higher-end speakers.

Same for Paradigm's Atoms:
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/me...paradigm_atom/
http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcom...64/index4.html

And even not taking specs and measurement into account, I've a/b switched my Paradigm Titans (next bigger model after the Atoms) right next to a friend's older NHT towers powered by same electronics and amps. Those towers were really very neutral sounding (a bit slightly bright in his very reflective living room though). Other than the lowest bass, the speakers (meaning the Titans vs. the NHT Towers) were basically A/B undistinguishable midrange and most of treble-wise, particularly with voices and most intruments, only the highest treble sounded slightly better and more extended in the NHT's. The Titans were actually a way better match for the towers than NHT Super Zeros which sounded obviously different from the towers all over the spectrum, not as neutral, and not as extended. Matching the Titans with my PDR-12 then the bass competition was in more even terms, and I actually preferred my less expensive combo's sound to the NHT's. Still, my humble rig (Titans+PDR12) is less than half, probably less than a third of what those towers cost.

Here's a Paradigm Titan review with measurements and freq. response graph, incidentally the review also includes the PDR 12 subwoofer:
http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/titan.html


Check other relatively inexpensive speakers with really remarkable specs, the Ascend Acoustics CMB-170 (haven't heard them though, but speaking of measurements) :
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...bm170meas.html
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...70/cbm170.html

 

[gevorg]

I disagree with OP. Those $100 or so speakers are MUCH better than what inside of boomboxes, mini-systems and computer speakers (used by big majority of the population). It is those speakers that introduce someone to audiphile level sound by fixing the major flaws from crappy speakers, and show the tip of the iceberg of the audiophile world.

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gevorg I disagree with OP. Those $100 or so speakers are MUCH better than what inside of boomboxes, mini-systems and computer speakers (used by big majority of the population). It is those speakers that introduce someone to audiphile level sound by fixing the major flaws from crappy speakers, and show the tip of the iceberg of the audiophile world.

Eloquently put.

 

[so_cal_forever]

I'll definatly agree, there's quite a bit of speaker snobbery out there, associating price with fidelity being the foremost. As I'd said before, there are a lot of speakers that are great and cost a lot, and there are speakers that sound just as great if not marginally better that cost less. This is ideally why you should audition, but not all of us have the pleasure of being able to do so, and some of the best brands are internet-only.