[cbk9811]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pabbi1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif This process is like a company drilling for oil - data is analyzed, test cores drilled, then the wells sunk to define the field of opinions - nothing more. We all have a POV, and there is not always a way to square the opinions. So, Jude has a TOU. There, within the TOU, we all abide. But, many knowlegeable folk have fled, never to return, hanging at far loftier perches, openly poking fun at HF, and how it is trending. So, if you want more of that trend, go for it. As there is less in the equation for the better posters, they will spend less time here. So, think about what is in this for others before throwing stones about who needs to change.

Isn't the point of this site to promote all music?? Its why most of us buy the gear, and take the time to encode music and burn in cans and wait for years for amp orders to be filled? Every group that has ever exsisted is trendy to someone else. Look @ any of he cycling or photo boards, they are the very same way. The "experienced" dwellers leave due to many factors. And typically they go on to enjoy the hobby even more. Because instead of sitting @ a screen and key board they are actually enjoying the hobby instead of writing about it. And the new breed of "experienced " dwellers come about. Its a cycle that never changes. It shouldn't matter if people poke fun or lambaste any product for being the flavor of the month. It was never and should never be about that. Its all about the music. Nothing more, nothing else.....

 

[shirtaspants]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberidd /img/forum/go_quote.gif ^ I maintain that it is mostly newbies trying to help others in the community to the best of their vicariously attained knowledge.

"Vicariously attained knowledge" is fail. How do you know you're not passing on a load of BS, even with the best of intentions?

I think anything else I have to say has already been posted. I would suggest rereading catscratch's and boomana's posts, in particular.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif no harm. just seems like wishful thinking. that's all. what should we do. make a sticky that says "don't make stupid posts," which is a great idea except that no one will even read it because there are too many stickies as it is and even if there were fewer, people still wouldn't read it due to carelessness, stupidity and general thoughtlessness. this thread is well intentioned but like all threads in this massive place will be buried and forgotten by tomorrow or the next day if lucky. and it's probably being read mostly by people who are not the problem anyway. what you suggest - changing the atmosphere or attitude/approach of posters - is a type of moderation, at least that is the only way it could be accomplished, and would take a sustained effort by groups of individuals over a long period of time to work.

Well, that's pretty pessimistic! I'm not built that way. I'd rather make an effort instead of throwing up my hands, saying, "We can't do anything! People are too careless, stupid and thoughtless, and this place is too big." I assume that most people on this forum, including those who arrived only today, are, generally speaking, open, intelligent, and wanting to participate. With every post we make, we show others what's acceptable and what's not. If only 10 or so more members, maybe after reading this thread for example, began to question their own posting habits and started offering real content where they might have been inclined to just fire off any old answer before, that's a start. If those and maybe a few more began questioning members who post willy-nilly (i.e., by asking for more detailed information about what been stated, asking if they've heard the gear in question, etc.), I think others would begin doing the same as that would be simply be the culture of the forum. It's not about perfection. We're not talking about major effort or gigantic changes. Just start shifting the culture a bit away from accepting what's not helpful and encouraging what is. There might be some grumblings, but would you rather have grumblings about people being asked to post informatively, or grumblings about the confusion and difficulty people can have in finding real information because it's buried in noise? Anyway, it's only wishful thinking if you don't do anything and hope that something changes without you. Do as you chose. Like I said before, I'm not built that way.

 

[cyberidd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shirtaspants /img/forum/go_quote.gif "Vicariously attained knowledge" is fail. How do you know you're not passing on a load of BS, even with the best of intentions? I think anything else I have to say has already been posted. I would suggest rereading catscratch's and boomana's posts, in particular.

As I said in my post prior to last, I understand that it is often a lot of BS based not on their own opinion, but rather those of other people. All I'm trying to get at is that I believe they do not realise that they are passing on a lot of BS because its the same BS that they've found and been told since square one. As people say about the quality of music, "garbage in, garbage out". This is of course not always the case, but I think it frequently rings true. The point is that I think we need to teach new members how they should behave on the forum, just like catscratch and boomana were suggesting, but should first try to figure out the root causes of the problem and start there.

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberidd /img/forum/go_quote.gif ^ I maintain that it is mostly newbies trying to help others in the community to the best of their vicariously attained knowledge.

That is a part of the situation, but it's IMO not the whole situation. And what matters isn't the intent but the effect. There will be a time when a more experienced member will have to hit a beginner with the shushstick and tell them plainly that they're wrong, and that is nothing to be avoided simply to spare the beginner's feelings. Everyone was a beginner at some point and went through this, and I certainly got my fair share of getting slapped around. I resented it at the time but now I'm grateful for it, and I think that the sooner you show someone that they're wrong, the more quickly they can get onto the right track and be better off as a result. Teachers do it all the time, and this should be expected of any community to which people come to learn.

**************************

Now, here comes a RANT, possibly one that's full of fail.

The reason why I'm so adamant against a descent into mediocrity is because we're a community that's largely based around a niche of products. Therefore, the quality of the products is going to be intrinsically linked to the quality of the community. Which in turn means that if the community were to slide into mediocrity - as it is already doing - it will also bring about a drop in the quality of the products.

Naturally, head-fi is not big enough to be the sole driving force in the headphone industry, but it is a driving force, and at this point in time at least it's not a small one.

Therefore, head-fi as a whole has a certain responsibility - a responsibility to be frank about the products that comprise its share of enthusiasm, and to be expert and knowledgeable enough to tell the good stuff from the bad.

When experienced members are driven out of the community - regardless by what force - the community's ability to critique products drops. This, in turn, allows manufacturers more slack to push mediocre products on the community because the community is less demanding and will gobble up pretty much anything that attracts its attention. Then you toss in unethical behavior like shilling which strangely enough is tolerated within the community, and it becomes that much easier to rip people off.

Now, before I go anywhere, I will not point fingers at manufacturers because I know the **** storm that will result. So don't even ask.

I think a lot of this is happening already. Once again I won't point fingers but a lot of what passes for new products and has quickly become popular is actually detrimental to the market. And if we still had the analytical and technical strength that we had during the times of the community's inception, we never would have allowed it.

So, I think it is in our best interests to act to stop the continuing decline of the community - because the very gear that we're passionate about will continue to suffer if we don't.

Just look at what has happened in the cable industry. Audio publications are afraid to publish a bad review since this will lose them ad revenue and review samples, so their standards for objective reporting slip. This in turn gives manufacturers the ability to slack off and charge absurd prices for snake oil and mediocre products. When this goes on long enough, it becomes the norm and people stop being outraged about it and start to accept it as fact. And as a result, the whole community suffers.

Now, I'm not a headphone expert by any means and I don't have the technical background to become one, at least without further study (which I may or may not do). So take the above with a grain of salt. But I think that there is a very, very real reason for why we should be afraid to be complacent and let things slide. And do keep in mind that unethical manufacturers will want the community to slide, because it makes it easier to rip the community off.

 

[CDBacklash]

I'm okay with it. Without it the board would probably move much slower. It also gives a good idea of who to not listen to; for example those who recommend the same headphone for everything.

 

[cyberidd]

Catscratch - I know exactly what you mean about getting a beating on arrival. Mine came from Uncle Eric who challenged me within my first 40 or so posts, and whose opinions I have since come to trust.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberidd /img/forum/go_quote.gif Personally, I really like the community atmosphere here at head-fi. There is information on just about anything headphone and by either searching or asking the right questions you can get some good (although varied) answers. I believe that most of the people who are posting the "2+2=Superman" recommendations are doing it to TRY to benefit the community. I think that new head-fiers can tell that there is a sort of a "bond" between head-fiers who have been around for a while, and they want to become a part of that. The easiest way to do that would be to make intelligent and well backed comments about equipment (at least in their minds). Unfortunately as many newbies have not experienced much in the way of gear, the only way to do that is hearsay. Fortunately they feel they have a very good grasp of what headphones sound like, and which should be recommended for what purpose since they have read countless other threads making the same suggestions. Now, backed by this "knowledge" they make their suggestion. Of course if all the information they read taught them that 2+2=pizza pops, thats the answer they think is right, and (trying to be helpful) pass on to the next newbie they meet. The problem is that they don't understand the possible misinformation and harm they could be causing by simply trying to help others as they have seen others do in other threads. In short, I think it is just a misplaced attempt to be helpful which in and of its self is not bad IMHO, its just the newbies wanting to fit in with the rest of the crowd.

I agree with you completely, but what newbies may not realize is that they already are important members of the community just by showing up and asking intelligent questions, taking the time to read up on things, going to meets or reading the meet impressions forum, posting what they do know about even if it's in the music, gear-fi or members' lounge forums. Why does everyone have to be a gear expert on week one or week five? I've been listening to headphones and high-end audio gear since the early 80s. I know some things, but I'm no expert and I know it. Why do people need to post as if they were? That's just ego and being inconsiderate of others.


Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is a part of the situation, but it's IMO not the whole situation. And what matters isn't the intent but the effect. There will be a time when a more experienced member will have to hit a beginner with the shushstick and tell them plainly that they're wrong, and that is nothing to be avoided simply to spare the beginner's feelings. Everyone was a beginner at some point and went through this, and I certainly got my fair share of getting slapped around. I resented it at the time but now I'm grateful for it, and I think that the sooner you show someone that they're wrong, the more quickly they can get onto the right track and be better off as a result. Teachers do it all the time, and this should be expected of any community to which people come to learn.

yup. I was "corrected" by members who knew what they were talking about when I didn't, but thought I did. Thank goodness. If I ever post wrong information again, I hope someone is kind enough to give me the shushstick.

X2 on the rant.

 

[tortie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Most people really come here not knowing what they want, and ask for everything as a result. Better idea is figuring things out - if you can't formulate any idea at all, pick something out of the popular headphones in price range and just buy it. On FS forum if you want to have easier time recuperating money. After that decide what you like, what you don't like, and build upon it. Don't say 'I want everything' - say 'my main objective is improve in these specific areas, as these are the most important.'

I have mostly just been lurking here for a long while now but I just have to say something about this matter. Your advice is totally dumb.

Its like going into a new restaurant and asking the waiter his recommendations for a specific food with the money that you currently have on your wallet and the waiter replies "just check the menu". Its not like the new customer is too lazy to read the menu, its just that he still wont know **** even if the looked at it. Your recommendation of "figuring it out" is just like telling him to pick something from the menu then you'll recommend him a dish AFTER he already ate it. Some people don't have the time or resources to try a lot of headphones, that's why they want their headphone purchase to be based on what people here recommend instead.

The fact is most new people here come over at head-fi BECAUSE they don't know anything about headphones and don't really know what they want or what exactly they are looking for. Some may only have experienced headphones thru their free cellphone or ipod earpiece. That's why they are posting here in the first place, to learn about headphones.

Now if they wanted to try out a headphone and their budget is $200, do you know how many results they would get if they did a search for "recommended $200 headphone"? you get about 500 results. If your a little bit knowledgeble about headphones and you do a more specific search like "recommended $200 open full sized headphone": you still get 75 results....now if you have the free time and will power to wade thru all those posts that's well and good but some people dont.

From their perspective, the only way for them to get a direct answer would be to make a new thread and specify what they think they need. I'm sure every one here has made at least one "recommend me" post in this forum.

I do like your recommendation for a headphone FAQ. A headphone sticky like this uber DAC thread will help: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/al...pt-2-a-325941/ instead of the one we have stickied on the headphone section. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/rec...new-old-13417/

Cheers.

 

[olblueyez]

Why do people get upset when new members ask repetitive questions? They all got here for the same basic reason, to ascertain knowledge instead of buying blind. If a member has been on the boards for years and doesn't have a drop of energy in his/her body to make a recommendation then don't, no shame in that. I do take exception to people who like to tell new members to "use the search function" when that energy could be used to type an opinion. If you feel compelled to use that phrase then are you really a member of the community? Seriously, why even come if you fill with frustration that comes from new members being new? Head-Fi will never stop changing, stick with it and retain your character or let it pass.

BTW: I reserve my right to be completely frustrated with stupid members.

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tortie /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have mostly just been lurking here for a long while now but I just have to say something about this matter. Your advice is totally dumb. Its like going into a new restaurant and asking the waiter his recommendations for a specific food with the money that you currently have on your wallet and the waiter replies "just check the menu". Its not like the new customer is too lazy to read the menu, its just that he still wont know **** even if the looked at it. Your recommendation of "figuring it out" is just like telling him to pick something from the menu then you'll recommend him a dish AFTER he already ate it. Some people don't have the time or resources to try a lot of headphones, that's why they want their headphone purchase to be based on what people here recommend instead.

Except that the waiter is getting paid, and is earning a tip from the customer, whereas the people on this forum are giving beginners advice for free, and are in fact very often donating money to the forum, and taking a lot of time to organize events. If someone here has a massively expensive rig, and a lot of people do, you can be sure that they also have a rather high-paying job, and their time is worth a lot of money, which they are spending to answer someone because they feel like it.

So, if you're a noob coming into the forum, then expecting someone to do the work for you in answering your question when you can just as easily answer it yourself is selfish and hypocritical. You are not entitled to star treatment. You are getting it because people are being nice and spending their own resources to help you. There are plenty of people here that are willing to help you out time after time, and that speaks highly of their character, but their help is their own initiative and it's not their duty, and you need to be able to appreciate that.

The main problem here isn't even repetition of old posts, but the attitude of entitlement that so many newcomers have. It is wrong, and it needs to be discouraged, because it ends up doing damage to the community as a whole. If we can encourage people to at the very least put the same amount of effort and time into formulating their questions and reading up information for themselves as we put into answering them, then the quality of the forum content will improve by miles.

Basically, I just want people to show some respect. And if they're not capable of showing it, then they shouldn't be a part of the community.

 

[tortie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif Except that the waiter is getting paid, and is earning a tip from you, whereas the people on this forum are giving you advice for free, and are in fact very often donating money to the forum, and taking a lot of time to organize events. If someone here has a massively expensive rig, and a lot of people do, you can be sure that they also have a rather high-paying job, and their time is worth a lot of money, which they are spending to answer you because they feel like it. Now see what I did there. I should be sleeping and getting ready to work but I took the time, at my own detriment, to answer your post. And I'm not even getting paid.

Getting paid or having a high-paying job has got NOTHING to do with anything here. This is just a forum and you don't have to post anything if you don't want to. If you think your wasting time by answering some posts then dont even bother.

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tortie /img/forum/go_quote.gif Getting paid or having a high-paying job has got NOTHING to do with anything here. This is just a forum and you don't have to post anything if you don't want to. If you think your wasting time by answering some posts then dont even bother.

I think you're missing my point. This isn't about answering questions but about discouraging an attitude that is detrimental to the community.

I edited my post above to more accurately reflect what I was trying to say. It's late but insomnia strikes again as usual

 

[tortie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think you're missing my point. This isn't about answering questions but about discouraging an attitude that is detrimental to the community. I edited my post above to more accurately reflect what I was trying to say. It's late but insomnia strikes again as usual

Haha no worries mate. After all these years I still consider myself a "noob" and im just trying to explain why noobs so such things. Its really recommended to do a search, but using the search engine here is really a hit or miss thing. Case in point, it took me a while to find that DAC thread that I linked up top

 

[HD_Dude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why do people get upset when new members ask repetitive questions? They all got here for the same basic reason, to ascertain knowledge instead of buying blind. If a member has been on the boards for years and doesn't have a drop of energy in his/her body to make a recommendation then don't, no shame in that. I do take exception to people who like to tell new members to "use the search function" when that energy could be used to type an opinion. If you feel compelled to use that phrase then are you really a member of the community? Seriously, why even come if you fill with frustration that comes from new members being new? Head-Fi will never stop changing, stick with it and retain your character or let it pass. BTW: I reserve my right to be completely frustrated with stupid members.

Exactly.