[juman231]

And orlor1n I see you had the ath-m50 in the past.  How do you compare it to the hd650 you have now? Would you say it's a big improvement over the m50? 

 

[olor1n]

Technically the HD650 is "superior". It just sounds more natural to me with its lush midrange and more open soundstage. It's transparent and allows me to just enjoy whatever I choose to listen to, without having to pick apart aspects of its sound that detract from the experience.
 
Having said that, I don't think it's fair to compare the M50 to the HD650. It's a very good headphone at that price range. I wouldn't necessarily say the HD650 is a "massive" improvement but I will point out that I do greatly prefer my current setup and wouldn't want to go back if I had a choice. I do miss the M50 though and wish I'd held on to it as well.

 

[tlniec]

Quote:

I definitely do not want to go into spending a lot of money for little improvement in sound quality. If I decide to buy the hd650, I am thinking about just buying the fiio e7/e9 combo, as it is a fact that hd650 has to be amped with enough power. I don't have any DAC and headphone amp yet, and many agree that it's a great bang for the buck type of a deal just like the ath-m50 

 

I'm considering this very same setup as well.  Any comments are welcome.  I'm particularly interested in how the E7+E9 combo fares in comparison to other DAC+Amp options in the same price range (Audinst HUD-MX1, Nuforce uDac2, etc).  Especially in terms of synergy with the HD650.
I know Disastermouse on these forums had this setup, but recently switched from the E7/E9 to a different setup (Musicstreamer something-or-other, can't remember exactly what it was called) and he felt it was a good improvement (I also seem to remember it was not in the same price range as the E7+E9).  I'm going to search some more posts for his comments on the E7+E9.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

I agree. Actually, as just a college student, I don't think I'll ever be able to justify (at least in the near future) spending several hundred dollars on audio gear. More and more I read in head-fi forums, I'm convinced that this hobby is quite expensive, although with some doubt with comments like such set up is "night and day difference," which seem to be a justified enough reason for many to spend so much (IMO) money into their headphone gears (which is at least a graspable concept to me until it goes onto cables that cost several hundred dollars. However, no offense intended for readers who believe otherwise and can hear the difference.)
 
I definitely do not want to go into spending a lot of money for little improvement in sound quality. If I decide to buy the hd650, I am thinking about just buying the fiio e7/e9 combo, as it is a fact that hd650 has to be amped with enough power. I don't have any DAC and headphone amp yet, and many agree that it's a great bang for the buck type of a deal just like the ath-m50 

 
I actually have a question! Sorry if I'm a little too straight-forward, but I can't understand spending over a thousand dollars on headphones either! Lunatique, as a critic of overly dramatized hype on audiophile gears, do you still think there's a good enough reason to spend the money to buy high-end headphones you have? Perhaps because I'm still a financially bound college student, but thousand dollar headphone is just as a diffficult concept for me as a couple hundred dollars spent on buying aftermarket cables...
 

Be very careful when you read people claiming that something is "night and day" different. First, you have to know exactly in what context are they drawing the comparison, because often it's the difference between a macro-view or a micro-view on the subject, and also who the person is. Some people like to feel like they know what they're talking about, while some actually do know what they're talking about. Usually reading that person's recent post history you'll be able to tell how that person has conducted himself in a community, and what others' opinion are of him. "Night and day" in different contexts means very different things. For example, if I've just been listening to something really unpleasant like the HD280 or one of those irritatingly fatiguing typical Sony headphones, and then I put on the LCD-2, and then the 007mkII, the latter two will sound very similar in the overall sonic signature compared to the unpleasant sounding stuff. But if I were to scrutinize the differences between the LCD-2 and the 007mkII, then some of the differences would seem like "night and day" because I've now pushed my nose much closer to intensify the scrutiny. It's just like comparing the differences with just your eyes or doing it with a magnifying glass. Different contexts. You have to decide where to draw you own line and when enough is enough, or at what point does the level of scrutiny exceed the purpose of usage. Like I said, for hobbyists whose understand of audio, fidelity, and even music itself are nowhere near the level of an audio professional or serious composer/musician, then just how far should you take the scrutiny? How much should you really care, and how much money should you really spend?
 
I can tell you right now that something as cheap and looked down upon as the Behringer MiniAmp Amp800 (headphone distributor for 4 headphones) or MiniMon Mon800, or Samson C-Control--they all sound totally pristine and free of distortion or coloration. I have them in my studio and I don't have a single complaint. I suspect the people who poopoo these cheap pro audio products to hell have likely gotten lemons, or are maybe a bit snobby and biased, or maybe they have superhuman hearing, because the units in my studio do not sound noticeably worse than boutique headphone amps that cost a thousand dollars or more. We're talking about products that cost less than $100 here. I could totally throw money away on boutique headphone amps that cost me thousands of dollars just so they can make me look more "credible" when people read my signature. But are you in this because you love music/audio and want to enjoy your movies and video games with great sound, or are you in this to impress others?
 
Your question about the more expensive headphones in my collection is an excellent one. I love questions that are meaningful and make people think. My disposition is somewhat unique compared to the average head-fi member. I'm a life-long passionate composer/musician, with a recording studio I built right into my home. In fact, when I designed our home, I spent majority of the time researching and designing and constructing the studio, and the rest of the home--kitchen, bedroom, living room, study, bathrooms, foyer, balconies...etc--they took a backseat to my studio. That's how important music/audio is to me. Add to that the fact I'm also a video game developer and writer/director; sound is very important to both games and film/TV, and even as just a fan, I crave satisfying sound to go along with awe-inspiring imagery. I get so much joy out of sound that it really is such a gigantic part of my life. For me, life without music would be a mistake. I live and breathe all this stuff and I would die a passionate composer/musician. In that context, the amount of money I'm willing to spend to get that last 10~20% of improvement in audio quality, even if it's diminishing returns, is not going to be the same as most. But compared to audiophiles with deep pockets, my stance is yet still different because in comparison I'm actually quite practical and do not buy into the hype and snobby attitudes. I make all expensive purchases with pragmatism first and foremost in mind. I will not spend money on anything that does not directly give me something significantly more enjoyable and practical in my daily usage. All my audio gear must be able to perform not only as leisure listening equipment, but also double as critical professional audio tools. Something like the LCD-2 is definitely money well-spent to me because I have heard enough other headphones in its price range or much more expensive, and none could compete, and the headphones I have heard that's below its price range also could not compete. When there are no cheaper alternatives or  similarly priced alternatives, or even more expensive alternatives, you choice becomes very clear. The LCD-2 really is unique in the headphone world IMO.
 
The only luxury rig I have in my studio is the Stax rig. Yes, it's expensive, and yes, I definitely don't "need" it, but you know what? I had the money to spare so it wasn't an issue. I rarely use it, but when I do, I get joy out of it. It gives me a different perspective, and that change in perspective keeps things interesting for me. Variety is the spice of life, as they say. Maybe one day I'll sell it because I feel like I just don't use it enough, and the joy I get out of it is not worth tying up a few grand for. But at the moment I don't have anything else on my "want to buy" list that I feel like I'd want to sell the Stax rig for, and the truth is, I can afford to buy other stuff without selling the Stax rig. Is $3,000 too much to spend for a luxury item? Well, compared to the people who buy yachts, private jets, castles, garage full of sports cars, horses...etc, this is really nothing. I think this is a very important point. You have to draw the line somewhere and decide what your limit is when it comes to spending for this particular purpose. There are probably some things you are willing to play a lot of money for that I personally would think is just silly, so it's all about each individual's priorities in life.
 
As long as you don't allow yourself to be brain-washed by a community of people who are obviously obsessive about the same thing, as their collective obsession allow things to escalate and get blown out of proportion, you'll be fine. If you're a college kid that just likes to rock out to your iPod and crank the volume when you do headshots in some multiplayer FPS game, then something like a flagship Stax rig would be ridiculous for you. But if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and your 16th birthday present from your parents was a BMW, then a Stax rig is just another expensive toy in your life. People with that kind of spending power wouldn't even care if some ridiculously expensive cable actually sounds better or not--they only know they can afford it and they couldn't be bothered with cheap stuff, even if it sounds the same. The tragedy is when people who do not have that kind of spending power gets brain-washed by the people who do, and end up spending a lot of money on things that really shouldn't have been that high on their list of priorities in life in the first place. Just be smart and pragmatic and buy stuff that actually makes sense according to your financial situation. If you passion for music/audio exceeds your financial capability, then you just have to save up for the diminishing returns.
 
 
 

 

[PianistOne111]

I've got the HD600, which has no deep bass, so I EQ'd it using Electri-Q.

 

[Slaughter]

Stop spamming threads with your links! I have already reported you once. Just because there is a thread regarding M50's doesn't mean people need links to reviews.
 
Quote:

for better understanding of m50s try these links
 
try these links
 
[size=12pt]http://www.frontendaudio.com/Audio-Technica-ATH-M50-Headphones-p/9999-02031.htm[/size]
 
 [size=12pt]http://www.headfonia.com/closed-cans-shootout-m-50-esw-9-t50p-hd25-1-beats-studio-srh-840-srh-750dj-k181dj-and-dj1pro/[/size]
 
 [size=12pt]http://www.zzounds.com/productreview--AUTATHM50[/size]
 
 [size=12pt]http://www.headphone.com/selection-guide/audio-technica-ath-m50.php[/size]
 
 [size=12pt]http://www.testfreaks.com/headphones-headsets/audio-technica-ath-m50/[/size] 

 

[pp312]

I have a question for Lunatique, as his post above convinces me I'll get an honest answer. The received wisdom says that the HD650 is hard to drive and all newbies are told that. However, I've owned a lot of phones and the 650 to me is one of the easiest to drive, and one the easiest to make sound good even out of modest HP jacks. I've never understood this "don't buy a 650 unless you get a powerful amp; it's not worth it" message. I've found any quality brand integrated or receiver will drive a 650 more than adequately and sound good into the bargain, which completely flies in the face of conventional wisdom. Are there actually two HD650s, or am I missing something?  

 

[idletime1213]

My belief is that the HD 650 is EASY to drive. They even sound good out of a rockboxed ipod... it's just that they scale so well that those who've heard them out of high quality amps and sources will insist that these expensive equpment be utilized in order to make the HD650 sound like they hear it. So they say that it doesn't sound good with cheaper amps, but in reality it would probably be very good for a person that has never experienced that quality of sound. So hard to drive is relative in this case. Hard to drive in terms of making it sound like those with high quality rigs hear it? Absolutely. Hard to drive to make it sound good? Not so much. Of course, this assumes that the person actually likes the HD650 sound sig.

 

[olor1n]

Quote:

I have a question for Lunatique, as his post above convinces me I'll get an honest answer. The received wisdom says that the HD650 is hard to drive and all newbies are told that. However, I've owned a lot of phones and the 650 to me is one of the easiest to drive, and one the easiest to make sound good even out of modest HP jacks. I've never understood this "don't buy a 650 unless you get a powerful amp; it's not worth it" message. I've found any quality brand integrated or receiver will drive a 650 more than adequately and sound good into the bargain, which completely flies in the face of conventional wisdom. Are there actually two HD650s, or am I missing something?  

I don't think there are many that present that as an absolute though. The times I've seen that expressed are usually stated by people who don't even own the HD650 but feel they can impart some wisdom based on what they've read. I'm not certain if you're misinterpreting my posts and those of similar views, when the intent is to simply state how the HD650 benefits from well matched components (dacs included, not just amps).
 
Yes, my HD650 sounds pretty good out of my $80 desktop Cmoy and it's inherent qualities are certainly presented with volume to spare, but to me there is quiet an improvement when going through the discrete amp section of my Audio-GD Fun. In both instances the HD650 is well driven and fed the same source (the Fun's WM8741 dac module), but the  Fun's amp section is clearly a better match with its cleaner and more transparent presentation as opposed to the "veiled" and congested sound put forth by the Cmoy (a quality, I believe, of its JRC4556 opamp).
 
This of course leads to another area of debate regarding the basic function of an amp and the merits of a coloured presentation vs "a straight wire with gain", but I don't think that needs to be explored as it does not detract from the reality that matching the right gear can potentially yield "better" results than just going for the absolute bare minimum. And again, for those inclined to point the finger at diminishing returns, I'll state once more that you don't need to spend the big bucks to achieve this. My setup is modest, but it still convinced me of the HD650's scalability.
 
So again, just in case the point is missed: I agree that the HD650 can be "easily" driven, but if you find it somewhat deficient you may be leaving a fair bit on the table if you don't even consider potential issues down the chain.

 

[olor1n]

Quote:

My belief is that the HD 650 is EASY to drive. They even sound good out of a rockboxed ipod... it's just that they scale so well that those who've heard them out of high quality amps and sources will insist that these expensive equpment be utilized in order to make the HD650 sound like they hear it. So they say that it doesn't sound good with cheaper amps, but in reality it would probably be very good for a person that has never experienced that quality of sound. So hard to drive is relative in this case. Hard to drive in terms of making it sound like those with high quality rigs hear it? Absolutely. Hard to drive to make it sound good? Not so much. Of course, this assumes that the person actually likes the HD650 sound sig.

This.

 

[Mong0]

I had a similiar experience with my HD 650, i got a tube amp, m-stage and essence st, but i still prefer my HD 650 out of my creative zen x-fi, it sounds the most soft and smoothest and overall just plain pleasent. However connecting the HD 650 directly into the headphone out of the ST still seems to sound the most "hifi", but the pmp is much more musical sounding to me.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

I have a question for Lunatique, as his post above convinces me I'll get an honest answer. The received wisdom says that the HD650 is hard to drive and all newbies are told that. However, I've owned a lot of phones and the 650 to me is one of the easiest to drive, and one the easiest to make sound good even out of modest HP jacks. I've never understood this "don't buy a 650 unless you get a powerful amp; it's not worth it" message. I've found any quality brand integrated or receiver will drive a 650 more than adequately and sound good into the bargain, which completely flies in the face of conventional wisdom. Are there actually two HD650s, or am I missing something?  

 
 
You'll see different people with different opinions on whether driving a pair of headphones to adequate volume is good enough. Many will say that other than achieving optimal volume without unwanted noise and distortion and coloration, there's also transients, frequency extension, stereo imaging, soundstage, and so on. I think it's all about doing critical comparison listening yourself to see if you even hear all those differences (and how dramatic they are) between a dedicated boutique headphone amp and the standard headphone out of your audio interface/sound card, stereo receiver, or mp3 player. If a device can drive any headphone to optimal volume and sound just fine to you, then it's fine. Portable players in general don't drive higher impedance headphones well since you'd have to crank the volume all the way up and still not achieve adequate volume level while introducing noise/distortion, and that's why if you want to use high impedance headphones with portable players, you often need an amp (likely a portable one, if you want to keep the rig portable). For me personally, I only use IEM's for portable usage since they are better suited for it. I would never use full-size headphones for portable uses because they are simply too cumbersome when I'm out and about, not to mention easily damaged and hard to store during traveling.
 
I'll tell you a little story. When I took the Denon AH-D7000 on a trip with me when I visited various headphone specialty shops in Hong Kong and Taiwan, I tested boutique headphone amps like the Corda Symphony.2 and SPL Phonitor. I did the most laughable test, which was to simply compare how the D7000 sounded out of those amps to the headphone out of my Creative Zen player. The D7000 isn't even high impedance, but it still required me to crank the Zen player's audio to the max. You'd think there would be a dramatic difference--I mean, we're talking about headphone amps that cost more than a thousand dollars. The truth is, upon initial swapping, it might seem like the amps sounded a little bit more refined, but it's such a vague impression that I couldn't even put my finger on exactly how and where the refinements are. Is it the transients? Is it the frequency response? Is it stereo imaging? Is it distortion? Noise? Coloration? After swapping several time times between the amps and the Zen player, I wasn't even sure there were differences anymore--sometimes I think I hear differences, and sometimes I don't. That's how subtle or inconsequential the difference are. To me, if it requires immense concentrated focus to hear any kind of subtle differences, and you are actually contemplating spending big money to get something that requires you to strain that hard to hear your fast dwindling diminishing returns, then you are deluding yourself. There are much, much better uses for that money. Take a step back and reassess your priorities in life, because at that point, you've lost all objectivity. Think about what else you can do with that money you're about to throw away on improvements you can barely hear.
 
Now, there will be people who will jump on those amps and claim that they are badly designed or does not have proper "synergy" with particular headphones, and to me personally, that is a somewhat backwards mentality. Saying that thousand dollar headphone amps are badly designed to me almost sounds like the whole world of boutique audio gear could be full of traps and illusions, since a thousand dollars will buy you what some people consider to be a "bad" piece of gear. I don't know about you, but in my world, a thousand dollars in other markets/industries/hobbies typically gets me some damn fine piece of gear--be it a photography lens, a guitar, a synthesizer, a DVD player, and so on. People like to feel superior than others--they can hear things you can't, see things you can't, criticize the design and hard work of professional audio experts who are far more knowledgeable than they are, and so on. World renowned mixing and mastering engineers of the highest caliber have praised the SPL Phonitor, yet snobby audiophiles like to poopoo on it? Let's be lucid for a moment here. In what world does hobbyist audiophiles have more authority and expert understanding of all things audio than the mixing/mastering engineers who actually produces these high-fidelity recordings that audiophiles listen to? These professional audio engineers have hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars invested in their recording/mixing/mastering facilities, lives and breathes critical listening and audio shaping with many years of professional experience, and have produced some of the finest music ever recorded in human history, yet the audiophiles like to feel as if they know more and have more discerning taste in equipment? The audio professionals at the top of their game trusts the Phonitor (when used in conjunction with their reference monitors) to make critical mixing/mastering judgments, yet it is not good enough for the superhuman hearing of these audiophiles and their flawed headphones that requires EXACTLY this kind of expensive cable, this kind of transistor and op-amp, this kind of heatsink and power supply, and this particular wiring and balanced this and that, which then only exists in this special boutique model made by this tiny boutique shop, in order to sound "right"?
 
You don't buy headphones that have obvious deficiencies in frequency response, unclear stereo imaging, slow transients...etc and then try to remedy them with a specific amp that just happens to address those issues for that headphone. A good sounding pair of headphones should sound great even out of the most ordinary headphone output of standard audio equipment--be it consumer or professional audio gear. Headphone amps are not fixed-EQ units, yet people often treat them that way. Why the hell would you buy a hard-wired EQ unit with only one setting, and only pairs well with a specific headphone, and that headphone without that amp, will sound "wrong" somehow? If you want to EQ your headphones then get a quality EQ unit--at least you can change its settings to match various headphones. Do you see what I'm getting at? This whole community tend to propagate some really strange ways of thinking, doesn't it? This is why I say you must resist and use your common sense. Don't get brainwashed--do your own tests. Take your headphones to audio stores and compare gears yourself (or buy online and do your own tests at home, and then return/sell later if you don't hear any significant differences). If you hear a significant difference that you think is worthy the money you have to spend to get it, then do it. If not, keep that money and spend it on something else that will actually get you something more useful. We can split hairs all day long, but at the end of the day, it's all about how much enjoyment you can get out of the money you have spent. When you split hairs to the point that it is killing the joy you're supposed to feel about what you own and what you can buy within your financial capabilities, then it becomes an unhealthy and unproductive activity.
 
This is why I never bothered trying to upgrade to "respectable" headphone amps. My Samson C-Control and Behringer MiniAMp sound perfectly fine--clear, punchy, no distortion, no noise, no coloration, and they provide far more bang for the buck in terms of features and value compared any of the boutique headphone amps I haver ever seen on the audiophile market. Is it possible that if I spent big money on very expensive headphone amps that I might hear some improvements? That is definitely a possibility. But I've already heard amps that cost more than a thousand dollars, and if they didn't impress me, then spending beyond that--even if I do hear improvements, would be ridiculous diminishing returns. For me personally, whatever differences will never be worth it at that price point.

 

[juman231]

Quote:

To me, if it requires immense concentrated focus to hear any kind of subtle differences, and you are actually contemplating spending big money to get something that requires you to strain that hard to hear your fast dwindling diminishing returns, then you are deluding yourself. There are much, much better uses for that money. Take a step back and reassess your priorities in life, because at that point, you've lost all objectivity. Think about what else you can do with that money you're about to throw away on improvements you can barely hear.
 
 Don't get brainwashed--do your own tests. Take your headphones to audio stores and compare gears yourself (or buy online and do your own tests at home, and then return/sell later if you don't hear any significant differences). If you hear a significant difference that you think is worthy the money you have to spend to get it, then do it. If not, keep that money and spend it on something else that will actually get you something more useful. We can split hairs all day long, but at the end of the day, it's all about how much enjoyment you can get out of the money you have spent. When you split hairs to the point that it is killing the joy you're supposed to feel about what you own and what you can buy within your financial capabilities, then it becomes an unhealthy and unproductive activity.
 

x2 
 
I think this very well summarizes the proper attitude one should have in going into finding how to best enjoy music. It's so easy to fall into the trap. I think I even felt abnormal once, when I read something that didn't match my experience. It seemed so normal that I hear the "night and day" difference that i other could hear. I tried to convince myself that I felt the same way as the other people. I tried hard to hear the distortion, the sharpness, the sibilance that people were dissatisfied with. But no, this is not why I came into this forum in the first place. It's all about how to improve one's own listening experience, not about going for the "best setup," or flaunting one's ability to hear so much difference among some audio gears. If it fits your bill, even if it doesn't satisfy others, then that's all there is to it! If some cables, amps or dac lets you hear enough difference and if it's worth it to you, go right  ahead. But if you're doing it just to be an "audiophile," you're wasting your time.
 
On the afterthought, funny how thinking about the word "audiophile" brings me the image of expensive audio gears, not someone who loves listening to music.

 

[dweaver]

Going balanced doesn't have to cost $300 for a cable. I know a local chap and fellow head-fi member who makes cables and amps for a heck of a lot cheaper than that. He also is willing to reterminate cables as well. My current D7000 was reterminated by him so I can go balanced (still saving for the amp) or use them unbalanced. The difference in sound going balanced is quite significant and might give your HD650 more life if you really like them. I have to say most of the high end headphones I have heard have all benefited from a balanced amp.

 

[estreeter]

Clearly, I have taken the wrong tack when asking technical questions on HF - I need to jazz up my thread titles with stuff like :
 
Purple-dinosaur style
Got married and had a kid
 
and my personal favourite:
 
SMACKDOWN !
 
I clearly need more caffeine and sugar in my diet.