fraseyboy
Headphoneus Supremus
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Sennheiser HD605... Never heard of that...
An expensive mistake - sold my StefanArt Sennheiser HD605's for Denon AH-D5000?
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Jon L
For him, f/1.2 is a prime number
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Quote:
Hey, who ARE you? You couldn't possibly only have 1 post count with the headphone list above?!
Oh, yeah, I vehemently disagree with your statement BTW.
| Originally Posted by blem /img/forum/go_quote.gif Having used many cans (K501, K340, K240, K701, K1000, ATH-AD2000, HE60, HE90, Qualia, L3000, DT880, Ultrasone Edition 9, Stax Lambda...) I feel the HD650 are still the most musical and enjoyable. |
Hey, who ARE you? You couldn't possibly only have 1 post count with the headphone list above?!
Oh, yeah, I vehemently disagree with your statement BTW.
techno_guru
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Quote:
Sorry - typo
| Originally Posted by fraseyboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sennheiser HD605... Never heard of that... |
Sorry - typo
techno_guru
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I find this strange - surely amps influence the sonic character of headphones in the same way power amps influence speakers. If this wasn't the case, we would all give up and buy the crappiest headphone amps and give up trying new designs. For example, some headphone amps work well with low impedance phones, some with high impedance designs, etc. Or am I just massively mistaken?
| Originally Posted by nickchen /img/forum/go_quote.gif various attemps to "tame" a fon by another amp is nothing but headfi folklore IMO. Better look for different fons than for another amp. |
I find this strange - surely amps influence the sonic character of headphones in the same way power amps influence speakers. If this wasn't the case, we would all give up and buy the crappiest headphone amps and give up trying new designs. For example, some headphone amps work well with low impedance phones, some with high impedance designs, etc. Or am I just massively mistaken?
Sovkiller
Proved that despite its huge size the CD3000 can be shoved down one's throat.
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Quote:
The HD650 IME is not more enjoyable than the Edition 9, nor than the DT880, Qualia, and even less than the HE90 IMO...they are right now competing in my list with the most bored heapdhones out there, head by head with the 701...Balanced they are a little more enjoyable but not even that way, it will touch the others IMO.
I used them mainly as a tool, only when I want to test any balanced amp, for the convinience fo the detachable cable...period...I was even thinking in downgrade to the HD600/580 and pocket the cash...
| Originally Posted by blem /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have both the HD650 and K701. If you are looking for something more exciting, do not purchase the K701. Also, I have tried HD650 balanced directly from a CDP and I would not recommend it. Having used many cans (K501, K340, K240, K701, K1000, ATH-AD2000, HE60, HE90, Qualia, L3000, DT880, Ultrasone Edition 9, Stax Lambda...) I feel the HD650 are still the most musical and enjoyable. There are many good amp recommendations for the HD650 on Head-Fi (lehman black cube, meier audio...). |
The HD650 IME is not more enjoyable than the Edition 9, nor than the DT880, Qualia, and even less than the HE90 IMO...they are right now competing in my list with the most bored heapdhones out there, head by head with the 701...Balanced they are a little more enjoyable but not even that way, it will touch the others IMO.
I used them mainly as a tool, only when I want to test any balanced amp, for the convinience fo the detachable cable...period...I was even thinking in downgrade to the HD600/580 and pocket the cash...
nickchen
Headphoneus Supremus
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Quote:
Of course amps influence the fon's presentation, but after having heared / owned quite some amps, I would say that this is a minor effect which tends to get bloated in forums. As long as not a real bad amp is usage, your fon will be driven nicely with a variety of maybe 95-100% quality. And even a bad amp will give you ~80% and only lack a bit bass tightness, soundscape or so - nothing really spectacular. If such differences are presented here as "night and day" stuff, it's mostly self suggestion or even boastful talk shop stuff IMO.
| Originally Posted by techno_guru /img/forum/go_quote.gif I find this strange - surely amps influence the sonic character of headphones in the same way power amps influence speakers. If this wasn't the case, we would all give up and buy the crappiest headphone amps and give up trying new designs. For example, some headphone amps work well with low impedance phones, some with high impedance designs, etc. Or am I just massively mistaken? |
Of course amps influence the fon's presentation, but after having heared / owned quite some amps, I would say that this is a minor effect which tends to get bloated in forums. As long as not a real bad amp is usage, your fon will be driven nicely with a variety of maybe 95-100% quality. And even a bad amp will give you ~80% and only lack a bit bass tightness, soundscape or so - nothing really spectacular. If such differences are presented here as "night and day" stuff, it's mostly self suggestion or even boastful talk shop stuff IMO.
Kees
Headphoneus Supremus
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Quote:
I want to quote / repeat myself here (I copied what I told in another thread):
Quote:
Both amps are VERY GOOD amps and both phones are capable of world class performance, but only in the right combination.
| Originally Posted by nickchen /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of course amps influence the fon's presentation, but after having heared / owned quite some amps, I would say that this is a minor effect which tends to get bloated in forums. As long as not a real bad amp is usage, your fon will be driven nicely with a variety of maybe 95-100% quality. And even a bad amp will give you ~80% and only lack a bit bass tightness, soundscape or so - nothing really spectacular. If such differences are presented here as "night and day" stuff, it's mostly self suggestion or even boastful talk shop stuff IMO. |
I want to quote / repeat myself here (I copied what I told in another thread):
Quote:
| Blackmore and I had a little meet last Sunday. We tried the GS1000 on several amps, two of which were the Aspen and the Stealth (both OTL tube amps). We tried them with several different tube combinations. We found a tube combination on the Aspen that made them sound absolutely wonderful. I mean REALLY great. But there was no way we could make them sound even acceptable on the Stealth... The exact opposite happened with my DX1000, which sound STELLAR with the Stealth and muddy and inarticulate on the Aspen..... Surprise: The GS1000 sounded VERY good on the Amity HPA4S (a little known sub $300 ss amp). Just to show you never know until you try and listen for yourself... |
Both amps are VERY GOOD amps and both phones are capable of world class performance, but only in the right combination.
Wmcmanus
President treasurer secretary and sole member of the Cayman Islands Head-Fi Club.
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Quote:
Therein lies the key! Check out markl's thread about the modification that he's done to the AH-D5000 and see how it has led him down the path of actually selling his beloved R10s. Never would I have thought that was possible, having read his posts about the R10s for so many years. Now granted, he liked the AH-D5000s right out of the box (and you obviously didn't) so his mod may not be able to make lemonade out of a pair of lemons for you, but it's worth some serious consideration given that the mods he's done are quite cheap.
All of the rest of the advice on this thread may (or may not) be useful to you, and if you read it carefully you'll see the law of averages coming into play. In other words, one person may say "Get the K701" while another person may say "Do anything you want to do, but don't get the K701." Same goes with the opinions that you'll get concerning what to do with your amp and source.
As I think you've now discovered, you need to rely on your own ears. But keep in mind, I'm not criticizing you for not having done your homework by listening for yourself before selling your HD650s. Afterall, these kinds of decisions are not the most important things in the world. All I'm really saying is that getting opinions about what to do now (instead of the Denons) will pretty much leave you in the same spot. You'll still have to make a decision based on imperfect information. It will be an educated guess at best unless you do your own listening first.
But with markl's mod, you may just be opening an entire new door with the headphones you already have. He sure seems convinced and he's got some great ears, let me tell you! He's an extremely experienced headphoner! What's more, the mods are both cheap and reversible. If they are as good as he claims they are (to your ears), then you can start thinking about what else to change in your system.
| Originally Posted by JMcMasterJ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Check out this thread. It might help out with the bloated bass if you are interested in modding them. |
Therein lies the key! Check out markl's thread about the modification that he's done to the AH-D5000 and see how it has led him down the path of actually selling his beloved R10s. Never would I have thought that was possible, having read his posts about the R10s for so many years. Now granted, he liked the AH-D5000s right out of the box (and you obviously didn't) so his mod may not be able to make lemonade out of a pair of lemons for you, but it's worth some serious consideration given that the mods he's done are quite cheap.
All of the rest of the advice on this thread may (or may not) be useful to you, and if you read it carefully you'll see the law of averages coming into play. In other words, one person may say "Get the K701" while another person may say "Do anything you want to do, but don't get the K701." Same goes with the opinions that you'll get concerning what to do with your amp and source.
As I think you've now discovered, you need to rely on your own ears. But keep in mind, I'm not criticizing you for not having done your homework by listening for yourself before selling your HD650s. Afterall, these kinds of decisions are not the most important things in the world. All I'm really saying is that getting opinions about what to do now (instead of the Denons) will pretty much leave you in the same spot. You'll still have to make a decision based on imperfect information. It will be an educated guess at best unless you do your own listening first.
But with markl's mod, you may just be opening an entire new door with the headphones you already have. He sure seems convinced and he's got some great ears, let me tell you! He's an extremely experienced headphoner! What's more, the mods are both cheap and reversible. If they are as good as he claims they are (to your ears), then you can start thinking about what else to change in your system.
blem
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Quote:
edited
| Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Therein lies the key! Check out markl's thread about the modification that he's done to the AH-D5000 and see how it has led him down the path of actually selling his beloved R10s. Never would I have thought that was possible, having read his posts about the R10s for so many years. Now granted, he liked the AH-D5000s right out of the box (and you obviously didn't) so his mod may not be able to make lemonade out of a pair of lemons for you, but it's worth some serious consideration given that the mods he's done are quite cheap. All of the rest of the advice on this thread may (or may not) be useful to you, and if you read it carefully you'll see the law of averages coming into play. In other words, one person may say "Get the K701" while another person may say "Do anything you want to do, but don't get the K701." Same goes with the opinions that you'll get concerning what to do with your amp and source. As I think you've now discovered, you need to rely on your own ears. But keep in mind, I'm not criticizing you for not having done your homework by listening for yourself before selling your HD650s. Afterall, these kinds of decisions are not the most important things in the world. All I'm really saying is that getting opinions about what to do now (instead of the Denons) will pretty much leave you in the same spot. You'll still have to make a decision based on imperfect information. It will be an educated guess at best unless you do your own listening first. But with markl's mod, you may just be opening an entire new door with the headphones you already have. He sure seems convinced and he's got some great ears, let me tell you! He's an extremely experienced headphoner! What's more, the mods are both cheap and reversible. If they are as good as he claims they are (to your ears), then you can start thinking about what else to change in your system. |
edited
Gurra1980
1000+ Head-Fier
I think that they are not your cup of tea, I love them out of my X-can v3 and to my ears the x-can don't have bloated or to much bass, the Denons are quite easy to drive, thats another reason I don't think that the denons will change so much with another amp, but they sound better with x-can than my rotel, tighter bass and smother treble, midrage. But the rotel isn't made for headphones so that is not so strange.
techno_guru
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Well, thanks to everyone for their great input and thoughts - a really great forum (with the exception of one or two fairly "fundamentalist" views - you all know who I mean!).
I've decided to try a different amp first, rather than sell Denon's. I'm going for the Meier Audio Opera - love the fact that you have an option for low and high impedance phones - brilliant idea.)
I'll post my thoughts once I've got the amp and done some serious listening.
Thanks again forum members.
I've decided to try a different amp first, rather than sell Denon's. I'm going for the Meier Audio Opera - love the fact that you have an option for low and high impedance phones - brilliant idea.)
I'll post my thoughts once I've got the amp and done some serious listening.
Thanks again forum members.
markl
Hangin' with the monkeys.
Member of the Trade: Lawton Audio
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Quote:
Hi Wayne, I liked aspects of the Denon's sound (the little glimpses of midrange and highs you could sometimes get a peek at through the overwhelming farty bass cloud.)
But in general, for me, the stock phones are almost useless.
techno_guru, it's 100% possible to perfect the Denons, if you are up for a little mod-ing (and possible warrantee voiding). You need to read the entire thread, the final mod I settled on is at the end, not the beginning. Eventually, I'm going to re-write the whole thing with correct instructions right up front.
That bass is not hopeless, and once you get it under control, for me at least, the finest dynamic headphone I've heard (and I've heard most of 'em) is revealed. I'm really not going to miss the R10 that much (up on ebay right now ), I'll need to do a head-to-head review of the two as well.
| Now granted, he liked the AH-D5000s right out of the box |
Hi Wayne, I liked aspects of the Denon's sound (the little glimpses of midrange and highs you could sometimes get a peek at through the overwhelming farty bass cloud.)
techno_guru, it's 100% possible to perfect the Denons, if you are up for a little mod-ing (and possible warrantee voiding). You need to read the entire thread, the final mod I settled on is at the end, not the beginning. Eventually, I'm going to re-write the whole thing with correct instructions right up front.
That bass is not hopeless, and once you get it under control, for me at least, the finest dynamic headphone I've heard (and I've heard most of 'em) is revealed. I'm really not going to miss the R10 that much (up on ebay right now ), I'll need to do a head-to-head review of the two as well.
sacd lover
Headphoneus Supremus
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Why dont you try the Senn 580/600. These headphones have most of the 650's general sound signature you like but, IMO, have more openess and air to the sound. The 600 sounds more tonally balanced and the tad less refinement of the 580/600 adds a little excitement to the sound.
| Originally Posted by techno_guru /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm new to this forum but have been an avid headphone fan for many years. I had been brand loyal to Sennheiser for many years, working my way through the range as the upgrade fever kicked in - ending up with some StefanArt re-cabled HD-650's driven by a Musical Fidelity X-Cans V3 with matching X-PSU 3. I liked generally liked this system, but found it slighlty lacking in excitement/emotion - sterile I suppose is the term. After a while, the upgrade fever kicked in and I sold the HD650's in favour of some Denon AH-D5000, which I figured would be a complete contrast. Well, I wasn't wrong! Unfortunately, I made this change on impulse, without demming the Denon's. After running the Denon's in for 500+ hours I still continue to be disappointed by that overwhelming, bloated bass. I read Skylab's review of the D5000 with interest, as he seemed to say only good things about the bass, which completely contradicted my view. I understand that we are both using completely different amps, so I'm led to think that this is where my problems most likely come from. So fellow forum viewers, could you please give me your thoughts on which route you would consider (bearing in mind I listen to a wide spread of music from jazz through to rock): 1. Change the amp - try either a Meier Opera or Yamamoto HA-02. I like a what I've read about both these amps, and several forum members seem to favour these amps with the Denon's. 2. Sell the Denon's, and go for some different cans, maybe AKG-701? 3. Buy some HD650's again, except this time run them directly from my balanced power amp (I have some pretty decent Ayre kit) with a balanced cable re-wire. 4. Give up all together and just stick to my 20-channel speaker rig! Thanks in advance for your thoughts and views - all very welcome. |
Why dont you try the Senn 580/600. These headphones have most of the 650's general sound signature you like but, IMO, have more openess and air to the sound. The 600 sounds more tonally balanced and the tad less refinement of the 580/600 adds a little excitement to the sound.
techno_guru
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Thanks for that - I just found the Sennhesiers a bit uncomfortable on my head - like a vice, which was another reason I went for the oh so comfortable Denons - they really do carress your ears rather than clamp them to death! If I can iron out the bass issue, I believe the Denon's would be very hard to beat...
| Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why dont you try the Senn 580/600. These headphones have most of the 650's general sound signature you like but, IMO, have more openess and air to the sound. The 600 sounds more tonally balanced and the tad less refinement of the 580/600 adds a little excitement to the sound.
|
Thanks for that - I just found the Sennhesiers a bit uncomfortable on my head - like a vice, which was another reason I went for the oh so comfortable Denons - they really do carress your ears rather than clamp them to death! If I can iron out the bass issue, I believe the Denon's would be very hard to beat...
techno_guru
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I promised an update, so here goes.
Well, I have some seriously interesting findings to report back on. I actually went for a Meier Audio Arietta, as I did not need the DAC option and I've read around the forums that the Cantate and Arietta are very close in ultimate performance terms. Idecided to save some cash over the more expensive Opera option.
Well here goes (all IMO of course, not meant to offend anyone):
1. To my ears, the MF X-can V3 was a SERIOUS mismatch for the Denon's (my original suspicions were proved correct). Bass through the Meier in comparison to the MF is pretty much night and day. The thick, cloying almost leaden basslines that I was hearing on the D5000's through the MF are now nimble, agile, defined and tuneful.
2. In response to some members who said to the contrary, in the case of the D5000's, a change of amp has made a big difference to the tonal qualities of the Denon's. I own a fully-balanced Ayre hi-fi rig and I'm used to listening to high-end sound, so I'd like to think my opinions are well-founded.
3. If you haven't had a chance to try the Denon's with a Meier, I would strongly advise you to try this combo - it's a very synergistic match and I would agree with Skylab's reviews of the Meier kit - it's very well built, great value and sounds extremely good.
Now, I wonder just HOW much better an Opera would be....
| Originally Posted by techno_guru /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, thanks to everyone for their great input and thoughts - a really great forum (with the exception of one or two fairly "fundamentalist" views - you all know who I mean!). I've decided to try a different amp first, rather than sell Denon's. I'm going for the Meier Audio Opera - love the fact that you have an option for low and high impedance phones - brilliant idea.) I'll post my thoughts once I've got the amp and done some serious listening. Thanks again forum members. |
I promised an update, so here goes.
Well, I have some seriously interesting findings to report back on. I actually went for a Meier Audio Arietta, as I did not need the DAC option and I've read around the forums that the Cantate and Arietta are very close in ultimate performance terms. Idecided to save some cash over the more expensive Opera option.
Well here goes (all IMO of course, not meant to offend anyone):
1. To my ears, the MF X-can V3 was a SERIOUS mismatch for the Denon's (my original suspicions were proved correct). Bass through the Meier in comparison to the MF is pretty much night and day. The thick, cloying almost leaden basslines that I was hearing on the D5000's through the MF are now nimble, agile, defined and tuneful.
2. In response to some members who said to the contrary, in the case of the D5000's, a change of amp has made a big difference to the tonal qualities of the Denon's. I own a fully-balanced Ayre hi-fi rig and I'm used to listening to high-end sound, so I'd like to think my opinions are well-founded.
3. If you haven't had a chance to try the Denon's with a Meier, I would strongly advise you to try this combo - it's a very synergistic match and I would agree with Skylab's reviews of the Meier kit - it's very well built, great value and sounds extremely good.
Now, I wonder just HOW much better an Opera would be....
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