[gikigill]

Older drivers couldn't survive the g force and the bleeding edge that modern F1 operates in. The brakes and acceleration in a modern F1 car are violent beyond belief and replicating it in an older car would wreck the car.

Lookup the 0-160-0 time of a modern F1 car and the G Force it goes through while in a drag and during a corner. It would literally disconnect your head from your neck.

 

[gikigill]

Alfa 166 S Series. Busso motor and telephone dial rims.

Taking offers.

 

[gikigill]

On a serious note, have a look at the Alfa SZ Zagato Magick.

 

[Magick Man]

I got a near mint (really) 94 Civic hatch EP Autocross car. Want that? Lol'd.

944. Who cares?

Who cares? Well, it beats a `94 Civic.

I think people have forgotten how good the 944 was, particularly the later turbos. In those years, it won more awards than the 911.

 

[Hutnicks]

Older drivers couldn't survive the g force and the bleeding edge that modern F1 operates in. The brakes and acceleration in a modern F1 car are violent beyond belief and replicating it in an older car would wreck the car.

Lookup the 0-160-0 time of a modern F1 car and the G Force it goes through while in a drag and during a corner. It would literally disconnect your head from your neck.

Really? I have yet to hear of a case of a modern F1 driver greying out due to lateral G. It was quite common in the 80's. It was one of the factors involved in banning ground effects. Acceleration was better in the older turbocars. Braking is where the modern F1 car is light years ahead of any other.

 

[gikigill]

Modern F1 drivers have a very strong training regime. Most F1 drivers put in 20-30 hours per week to stay fit. Hakkinen used to have a gruelling 40 hour weekly regime. They are much fitter than their older counterparts and Schumacher used to play football in off season.

 

[Eee Pee]

Front engine Porsche… Nevermind how fast my Civic is on course. Lotta FTDs, but hey, parking lot cone dodging… [/brag]

There's no argument today's top F1 drivers are better. Look at them.

 

[Magick Man]

You're right, a Cup car (meaning it's setup from the factory specifically for road racing) is awful with parking lot cones... For real? :rolleyes:

 

[Eee Pee]

I'm not trying to argue. Sorry if it came across that way, and to disrupt things. Just conversation.

But still, FR Porsche? Boo.

 

[customcoco]

 
Really? I have yet to hear of a case of a modern F1 driver greying out due to lateral G. It was quite common in the 80's. It was one of the factors involved in banning ground effects. Acceleration was better in the older turbocars. Braking is where the modern F1 car is light years ahead of any other.

Sorry I'm catching up late.
 
 I came across an artcile in EVO recentlye that contained an interview of WRC Driver Kris Meeke.
 
Obviously Group B was mentionned and Meeke (who also happens to be an engineer) stated that current gen WRC cars were actually several (5 or 6) seconds faster per kilometer.
 
Indeed, watching a WRC car surging out of a tight corner is quite something in itself.
 
Now, what's wonderful about those cars is that they can achieve those feats on half the power of Group B cars while being safe enough not to kill anybody .
 
On to F1.
 
The following video speaks volume about the speed of modern F1 cars even on slower tracks :
 

 
With that said, just look at how much more effort Senna seems to put on the wheel !
 
That's what sort of gets in the way of the "nowadays F1 cars are harder on the drivers". Sure the sheer amount of acceleration a modern F1 can generate is astounding ( 180 MPH to a dead stop in less than 3 secs, 5G's in some corners etc...), but nowadays they have power steering and sequential 'boxes.
 
I do believe that the amount of brutality that the older machines exhibit is simply unmatched. There's a reason why a well-trained journo can now get in the seat of an F1 and keep it on the track. Hammond, I'm sure, would have never made 2 laps around a track in an MP4/4 in qualy trim.
 
Now, today's drivers also have a lot more to do, intellectually speaking, than senna had. I don't want into the usual clichés, but just look at how much buttons those wheels have !
 
One of the reasons why I like Singapore's qualy onboard cams so much is that one can easily discern what the drivers are doing on their screens. Seeing Hamilton changing his car's breaking balance while going flat-out and passing slower cars like it's no big deal is simply mesmerizing.
 
One also has to take into account how fit the average driver is nowadays compared to the 80's. Senna and Prost were exceptions, just compare Mansell and Britney. See ?
 
Those guys put 10's of hours every week to train all while staying as light as possible (drivers' weight was less of an issue back then). Keeping up for 2 hours in Malaysia while being on diet of salads and orange juice only can't be that easy...

 

[Hutnicks]

Modern F1 drivers have a very strong training regime. Most F1 drivers put in 20-30 hours per week to stay fit. Hakkinen used to have a gruelling 40 hour weekly regime. They are much fitter than their older counterparts and Schumacher used to play football in off season.

 
Thats not new. It was Lauda who brought the concept of personal training to F1. It was not lack of fitness that had the likes of Piquet and Mansell literally passing out when they got out of the car.

 

[Hutnicks]

Who cares? Well, it beats a `94 Civic.

I think people have forgotten how good the 944 was, particularly the later turbos. In those years, it won more awards than the 911.

When it wasn't disassembling itself it was a fine car just fine.

 

 
Sorry I'm catching up late.
 
 I came across an artcile in EVO recentlye that contained an interview of WRC Driver Kris Meeke.
 
Obviously Group B was mentionned and Meeke (who also happens to be an engineer) stated that current gen WRC cars were actually several (5 or 6) seconds faster per kilometer.
 
Indeed, watching a WRC car surging out of a tight corner is quite something in itself.
 
Now, what's wonderful about those cars is that they can achieve those feats on half the power of Group B cars while being safe enough not to kill anybody .
 
On to F1.
 
The following video speaks volume about the speed of modern F1 cars even on slower tracks :
 
 
 
With that said, just look at how much more effort Senna seems to put on the wheel !
 
That's what sort of gets in the way of the "nowadays F1 cars are harder on the drivers". Sure the sheer amount of acceleration a modern F1 can generate is astounding ( 180 MPH to a dead stop in less than 3 secs, 5G's in some corners etc...), but nowadays they have power steering and sequential 'boxes.
 
I do believe that the amount of brutality that the older machines exhibit is simply unmatched. There's a reason why a well-trained journo can now get in the seat of an F1 and keep it on the track. Hammond, I'm sure, would have never made 2 laps around a track in an MP4/4 in qualy trim.
 
Now, today's drivers also have a lot more to do, intellectually speaking, than senna had. I don't want into the usual clichés, but just look at how much buttons those wheels have !
 
One of the reasons why I like Singapore's qualy onboard cams so much is that one can easily discern what the drivers are doing on their screens. Seeing Hamilton changing his car's breaking balance while going flat-out and passing slower cars like it's no big deal is simply mesmerizing.
 
One also has to take into account how fit the average driver is nowadays compared to the 80's. Senna and Prost were exceptions, just compare Mansell and Britney. See ?
 
Those guys put 10's of hours every week to train all while staying as light as possible (drivers' weight was less of an issue back then). Keeping up for 2 hours in Malaysia while being on diet of salads and orange juice only can't be that easy...

I suspected the newgen Rally vehicles were still making progress. That Citroen was just pure witchcraft to behold in the right hands. So in that case the safety argument actually seems to have worked to the positive.
 
 The older cars were brutes by comparison in F1. What Bumble doesn't tell you in that vid is why Senna's not on the curbs. You didn't dare clip a curb with a lot of those beasts, there was no telling how much it would upset the suspension and in a different manner depending on the curb and angle of attack. Now power anything, no onboard water for the driver, no consideration for driver life support (see Gordon Murray and the Brabhams aerodynamics being so efficient it denied airflow to the cockpit). They were physically brutal and punishing on drivers.
Go back to the full GF cars and there are a few interviews out there where the greyouts are mentioned.  I think it was Mansell who put it "we point the car into the apex and our vision is usually clearing at the exit."
 
 The modern F1 car is a far more elegant machine in which to get around a track.
 
Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to make a case where the current F1 cars are NOT faster. It's quite obvious they are. But where they are getting the faster lap times is in most part under braking.

 

[Magick Man]

When it wasn't disassembling itself it was a fine car just fine.:rolleyes:

Now you're talking about every Italian, British, and French car, ever. I'm quite glad that all of them have coin wells and neat storage compartments, because they're perfect for keeping all the knobs and trim pieces that fall off.

 

[Hutnicks]

Now you're talking about every Italian, British, and French car, ever. I'm quite glad that all of them have coin wells and neat storage compartments, because they're perfect for keeping all the knobs and trim pieces that fall off.

I've always had good luck with French cars, then again my father was a Citroen / Packard dealer for a while.
 
English, well. I have yet to hear anyone come up with an explanation for the once a year the oil just disappears and we know not where syndrome.
 
Italian, it's built in as part of the charm. You're a Lancia owner so you are hip to the mystique. For how can a bella be truly attractive if she is not constantly crying for attention?
 
In all seriousness and I know we have a long standing argument over the Porsches with the engines in the wrong end, I have never met a 944 that did not exhibit the spectacular dissassembly syndrome. I think it was largely due to the labour problems in Germany at the time. The number 3 cylinder and camshaft issues were design flaws though.
 
That said, if I had all the money in the world, or at least more than I do now I might be tempted to buy bits and pieces and build a 948

 

[Eee Pee]

 
we have a long standing argument over the Porsches with the engines in the wrong end

 
Ah.  Hah.
 
And I just want a nice 914 with the 2 liter flat 6.