**AMP/DAC for he400**

[MattTCG]

So the LYR is the best choice?

 

[TMRaven]

I've always wanted to try some Schiit.  I get plenty of overhead for volume on my Little Dot, but have always wondered what a very clean and dynamic hybrid amp or discrete solid state amp could do for low impedance cans.

 

[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

So the LYR is the best choice?

Lyr's a fantastic amp that punches above its price, no question.  I said in the Lyr thread a while back that I paid $100 more for my Lyr than my Headroom, and I feel I got ripped off by Headroom as a result.  Rarely do I see anyone discuss the Lyr holding their performance back until I read the HD800 threads.  And even there, apparently, with the right tubes Lyr does well, but a Samuels or Levinson at $2-3k is a bit more appropriate for the $1500 monster cans.  HE-6 still requires MORE power than that....not many non-balanced amps could run the HE-6 well I imagine.
 
Of Schiit's lineup, Lyr is the best choice, certainly (other than the forthcoming, much more expensive balanced amp.) But Lyr is still a bit out of your price range (It's $450, new, and that's just the amp, you'd have to get a separate DAC, or muddle along with the one you have.)
 
Looking at something $300 for the pair is a harder task.  Asgard at $250 is more in budget, and should do well with HE-400, but that only leaves you $50 for a DAC.  Schiit's DAC (Bifrost) is very nice for the money, but at $350 without USB and $450 with, it's also a bit out of reach, I'm afraid.
 
The options you found earlier are probably more what you're looking for, unless you want to save up and work on your "entry-summit-fi" end-game of Lyr/Bifrost/HE-400.  I can confirm it's a beautiful trio. (Sorry about your wallet? )  Of course if extending the budget that far, then I'm sure others would have suggestions there too, so you may just want to hold your ground at your fixed price!
 
Quote:

I've always wanted to try some Schiit.  I get plenty of overhead for volume on my Little Dot, but have always wondered what a very clean and dynamic hybrid amp or discrete solid state amp could do for low impedance cans.

I haven't owned an all OTL tube amp, but I have both the Lyr (hybrid) and a not-too shabby discrete solid state (Headroom Micro Desktop.)  Lyr stomps the Headroom, at least with high impedance HD650.  I've yet to test the K702 or HE-400 on the Headroom.  I imagine the Headroom will fare better with K702 than HE-400 simply because Headroom amps are a touch dark, and the dark on dark pairing with HE-400, LCD2, HD650, etc just ends up muddy and forward.
 
 

 

[TMRaven]

You should compare headroom and Lyr on HE-400.  For justice.

 

[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

You should compare headroom and Lyr on HE-400.  For justice.

I plan on doing so, I just haven't got around to it yet.  Next time I'm ripping CDs at that setup I'll probably give it a try.  I need to get the Lyr sound ingrained in my head first since I don't have anything set up for a proper ABX it'll be pretty subjective. 
 
But there was nothing subtle about the difference on HD650, so if it's equally startling in difference, I'll notice.  If it's not, well, then they're both two good amps for it.  Headroom amps are voiced overall darker however, so some of the effects can be guessed at. 

 

[MattTCG]

thanks for all the replies guys!! 

 

[Gaspasser]

Hey all,

I am new to head-fi and have been perusing the threads looking for someone commenting on HE-400 with Schiit combo. I am thinking about getting HE-400 with Asgaard/Bifrost. My musical prefs include jazz, funk and folk. I am looking for a combo that really nails jazz/funk drums. Can someone comment on this and the overall strengths/weaknesses of the combo. Thanks.

 

[choC.]

Xonar Essence STX -> Matrix M-Stage is what I use.

You can probably pick up both for close to $300 second hand altogether.

 

 

[palchiu]

I plug HE400 into Matrix mini-i for burn-in, after 100+ hours I've take listen for a while it's sounds not bad.
 
I think your may find amps that make HD650 sound good, and that will also nice with HE400.
 

 

[IEMCrazy]

 
Quote:

You should compare headroom and Lyr on HE-400.  For justice.

 
Ok, so here's my not-so perfect evaluation of the HeadRoom Micro Amp (Desktop, old model) versus Lyr both with HE-400 and K702.   Note that I did not AB, nor ABX, and that I did not have it connected to the same source, so it is a very loose evaluation.   Also note that the model I have is the old discontinued Micro (from the era where the portable one took a 9v battery) not the current production series, so I can not claim to know what is currently available.  I suspect much is the same, but can't confirm it.
 
Lyr: Configured with stock GE tubes, connected to Bifrost being fed by a Squeezebox Touch.
Micro Amp: (Desktop) being fed by EMU-0404 USB out of a PC, Foobar2k with ASIO drivers, no DSP or EQ.
 
The short verdict for the TL;DR crowd:  Lyr is a superior amp in general, and not by a small margin, however part of that can be attributed to personal preference for the neutral tonality and tube distortion.  Both amps are suitable for HE-400 with good effect.  If you were going to buy an amp and the extra $100 didn't mean much to you, get the Lyr.  If you already have the Headroom, it will do well with HE-400.  Both are quality amps, but my preference for Lyr is significant.
 
I've heard good things about K702 and Headroom.  After being used to Lyr and trying K702 for the first time on the Micro, I can't understand why I've heard good things.  The "plastic sound" I hear widely exclaimed is very, very present on K702 on the Micro.  It does not sound that way on the Lyr.  I couldn't stand hearing it, and would not actually like K702 if that were my only amp for them.  They sound, maybe, nasal.  But plastic is the best phrase.  It sounds like the reproduction of sound is being either produced by or maybe dampened by a thin film of plastic.  While the driver cone probably is plastic, there's a thin harsh shallow sound to the music much the way you'd expect tapping on a plastic box to sound.  I did not like it.  Where the Micro makes HD650 full and muddy, it makes K702 boring and nasal.   At least in comparison to hybrids.
 
What I noticed about the Micro is that it has a very forward presentation.  It's downright aggressive in the Grado sense of the word.  I would hate to see a paring of those two.  If you love aggressive sound, you may prefer the Headroom over the Schiit.  It also seems to make the transients very sharp as though they attack on the leading edge of the curve.  This can produce the feeling of "fast" sound, and in fact it does feel fast, but it's also fatiguing.  Lyr isn't known for a huge soundstage, but it feels vast in contrast.
 
Finally HE-400.  And there was a bit more redemption here.  There were some things it did to the sound I really liked.  But it also made the weaknesses of the amp shine.  The sound is forward.  Very forward.  How forward?  I played some salsa tracks I'd previously listened to on Lyr.  On Lyr the brass was sometimes a bit too loud at normal levels (hard to say for HE-400, but it was a towering brass)  The vocals in this particular album were somewhat recessed.  It's not a constant trait of He-400, but for this album it felt that way.  Fast forward to Micro.  The vocals are almost at the same levels as the brass.  Very forward with very colored mids.  No wonder I hated it with HD650.  For this album it was actually a positive effect.  The music was less natural but more exciting with a bit more energy than the natural, reserved Lyr.
 
Now classical.  The Lord of the Rings, Complete Recordings (Howard Shore) which I'm quite familiar with showed me another difference between the two.  Lyr has wicked dynamics, and the HE-400 can match them.   The Micro....not so much.  The effect is similar to that of DR compression.   While on Lyr, the lows are so dead-silent that they're virtually inaudible, while the highs are eardrum blasting, utilizing the full DR CD has to offer. At times this effect can be annoying, but those large scale dynamics are also an important port of microdynamics in terms of the small variations in loudness in the music.  The result on Micro is the lows are much louder in relation to the highs.  While it creates a more coherent listening experience, it greatly detracts from the engagement and excitement of music and is especially detectable in classical with big DR ranges.  The result was a flatter, more boring experience.
 
How much of that is SS vs Hybrid, superior versus inferior, and user preference of one signature over another.  Lyr is a very neutral amp with huge dynamics.  Micro is a fairly colored and forward amp with reduced dynamics (but very high quality all the same.) I can say I favor the Lyr's volume pot.   There's some channel imbalance on the Micro I never noticed until I compared to Lyr 
 
Both are good, quality amps, but they do sound different, and I believe Lyr deserves praise as the superior choice, though for additional money.
 
If you already have a Micro and like the sound of the Micro, there's no reason to not pair it with HE-400.  It's a good pairing in terms of the way it drives it, and if you already like the tonality of the Headroom products, you won't be disappointed with how the HE-400 renders its output.  K702....no.  But then, there are folks on the forums who really like that combination.
 

 

[Phos]

 
Quote:

But what they're offering at that price is certainly good on paper.  They'd have to really botch the circuitry for a discrete setup to not beat the op-amp E9.

Going to have to disagree here, op amps (that are actually meant for audio, not that many actually are) will usually beat discrete designs unless you're going for super high end stuff.  
 
An ODA/ODAC combo will probably fit in your budget when it comes out.  

 

[IEMCrazy]

 
Quote:

 
Going to have to disagree here, op amps (that are actually meant for audio, not that many actually are) will usually beat discrete designs unless you're going for super high end stuff.  
 
An ODA/ODAC combo will probably fit in your budget when it comes out.  

 
And when was the last time you saw an op-amp meant for audio?  Definitely not in the E9...that thing is a known generic and many people have replaced the op-amp to improve the E9.

 

[Phos]

There are actually a lot of opamps meant for audio.  The 5532, for example, is meant for audio use.  

 

[skiam]

Quote:

 
Valhalla's supposedly an awesome amp for high impedance headphones and a warm tubey sound, but it's a very bad choice for HE-400.   From Schiit's own Valhalla FAQ:
 
 
 
The same applies to AKG 70x which has similar load requirements to orthos for some unknown reason.

 
Quick question, how do you know what amps are bad (doesn't work well) with the He-400?

 

[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

 
Quick question, how do you know what amps are bad (doesn't work well) with the He-400?

 
HE-400 will work well enough with anything except an amp described as OTL Tube (or "Output-transformer-less tube amplifier".)  Those won't have the current required to properly drive them and are intended for high impedance headphones like Sennheisers and Beyerdynamics.
 
Other than that, pretty much any Solid State (SS), OTC (Output-transformer-coupled tube amplifier), or "hybrid" (part SS, part tube) amplifier should do.  The differences between each at that point become more about which one seems to agree with the impedance of the headphones most perfectly which is mostly a question of personal preference and an ear accustomed to hearing said differences.
 
Other than combinations that electrically flat-out don't work right (in the case of HE-400, only OTL tubes like the Woo WA6 or Schiit Valhalla fit that problem), what we mostly talk about when we say "works well with" is that we have found based on personal experience that the sound produced by a given combination of amp + headphones is a sound resulting from optimum matching of the strengths and flaws of the pair of headphones along with the strengths and flaws of the paired amp.