AMP A / B COMPARISONS
Mar 20, 2011 at 12:38 AM Post #391 of 500


Quote:
In my personal experience, even crappy recordings will benefit greatly from quality gear, so I don't agree with the mentality that if someone was listening to lossy files, they shouldn't waste their money on quality headphones. For example, I have some really old cassette recordings that friends in high school made for me that are muffled, full of noise, distortion, azimuth irregularities, and so on, and some are artists I still haven't been able to identify to this day, so I have no way of tracking down better quality recordings of those songs. During the evolution of my listening habits and studio setup, these old crappy recordings have been played on a variety of equipment in the last couple of decades. With each improvement of gear, I was able to hear more detail in those crappy recordings than before, which means those details were always there, just that the crappy earbuds and boomboxes I started with as a teenager weren't able to resolve those details. Now that I have the most ideal studio setup I can afford, I'm hearing a lot of stuff in these old recordings that I never did in the past. Instead of what people commonly refer to as "better equipment will make lower-quality recordings unbearable because the flaws will become too obvious" I experienced the opposite. The better gear actually made the crappy recordings far more enjoyable because now I have a neutral platform for those old recordings to stand on. 
 
Most inferior gear (not the same as cheap, since some cheap gear can be excellent) have unacceptable coloration, and what happens when you listen to bad recordings on them is that those colorations will exacerbate the deficiencies of the bad recording. The frequency anomalies are often exaggerated, the stereo imaging collapses, and the distortion and noise are amplified. When you use quality gear that's as neutral as possible, at the very least you are providing no exaggeration and distortion, and the inferior recording will simply stand on its own, without having its flaws amplified, while whatever fidelity that has remained in the recording can now be heard more clearly. In fact, I was surprised by how much information was actually contained in those crappy old cassettes--certainly far more than I could have predicted, and I have been listening to them for decades and know them like the back of my hands. So if crappy old cassette dubs can sound much better on good gear, so can lossy files (but read on--this has a catch).
 
But, I also need to mention that if you have lossy files that were encoded a long time ago using old algorithms (for example, old inferior mp3 encoders from the 90's, and encoded at 128 kbps constant bitrate), then yes, their flaws will become even more evident when you listen on quality gear. The smear of the transients, the lack of resolution, the distortion, the metallic fakeness...etc will all become more evident with good gear--to the point of being a bit annoying. This is because digital encoding using inferior algorithm will cause very different kinds of undesirable artifacts than old analog recordings like the cassettes I mentioned. So if you have really old lossy files with low bitrate, I highly suggest you re-rip those files with modern quality encoders. I find that with the latest stable iteration of the LAME engine using variable bitrate and set to even just standard quality, it will already sound vastly superior to those old rips. With even higher settings, you will get essentially transparent lossy files that only those with dog-like hearing will be able to tell apart from the lossless version, and even among those people, the subtle differences can only be heard via concentration. In normal everyday situations, if you simply played a piece of music for a golden-ear friend to listen to, I doubt the person will be able to tell they are listening to a high quality lossy files if you didn't tell them.
 

My name's Rob too, so that's two Rob's saying much the same thing. :D
 
I absolutely agree about the comment regarding common sense, and it's usually the lack of common sense that's the fuel for me long rants. In a way, I spend time writing these long posts because I want to shake some sense into as many members who might benefit from a dose of pragmatism as possible, so that the overall head-fi culture will stop breaking people's wallets and bank accounts with alarming frequency--especially that very often these unnecessary purchases really don't add up to anything truly meaningful.
 
When I see posts where a typical college student has something like half a dozen different headphone amps and buying expensive balanced custom cables, it just makes me a little sad, because they could've spent that money on something else such as actually eating healthy instead of eating instant noodles all the time. I even know someone who's on welfare, but because of all the brain-washing from this community, he ends up constantly buying and selling headphones and amps and his spending continues to escalate, despite the fact he can't afford any of it. He could've been perfectly happy had he stayed with the first headphone that had really blown him away and cost very little (The M50), but he keeps reading the forum and keeps being tempted by all the posts where people crap on what he was already very happy with, saying how much better this and that is, or that he NEEDS this and that amp for the "synergy" and so on. It's often a bunch of ass-backwards advice and suggestions that only makes things worse for someone financially, instead of helping them achieve satisfaction without them having to break their bank accounts. 
 
I have more than a few times received PM's from members who are afraid to speak up publicly in the forums about their findings, but in the PM's, they admit to me that when they compared this and that expensive piece of gear against the much cheaper one, they really couldn't hear any meaningful differences. These members are afraid to speak up about it because they know they'll get attacked and ridiculed. The fact that this community culture has caused that kind of fear and intimidation is a part of this so-called "tragedy" I've been talking about. 

Lunatique,
What you've described is the nature of humanity.  There are elements of any population sample who have addictive personalities, there are elements in any population who seem to be completely focused on what others think about them, there are elements of any population sampling who freely offer advice to others, while know little to nothing whereof they speak.
 
Such is life and the larger the sample size the greater the frequency of such sightings.  Don't let it get you down.  Just keep offering your wisdom and insights, and realize there are some who will hear what you say and put your principles to work.  Realize that Skylab is also a very reasonable fellow and provides tons of great and good advice to Head-Fi readers.  There are those who reject, those who hear and benefit and there are those who hear and pervert.  Thank you for wanting to help our little community.
 
Cheers,
Kevin (aka kwkarth)
 
 
 
Mar 20, 2011 at 1:33 AM Post #392 of 500
what im getting out of lunatique's posts from reading them, isnt that he doesnt think people should spend money, just that they should be spending the money where the most good can be made of it, and that is at the transducer. i admit there are differences among amps and certainly among dac's, the i dont think anyone can deny that new speakers or headphones will make a drastically larger differences in the sound that you are hearing.
 
ill me moving out of my dorm and into a house here kind soon. and i want to get a good speaker rig going. im gonna try to sink somewhere between 5-10 grand into a set of speakers, and then maybe another 1-2 grand into source/pre-amp/amp's just becuase i know that'll get me the best sound for my money. sure maybe an emotiva amp may not be the last word in amplification, but its got the power, and its got the specs, and itll power my salk signature speakers just fine :)
 
Mar 20, 2011 at 2:24 AM Post #393 of 500


 
Quote:
Fanatics abound on both sides pp312 (and yes, water is wet
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). There seems to be a common thread in the posts from the "lossy" side of the debate. Namely, the assumption that enjoyment and appreciation of the music is thrown out the window when higher resolutions are involved. Yes, there are those who've perhaps lost their way and obsess about such things, but quality and over analysis don't always go hand in hand.



Nor would I ever suggest anything so heretical, olor1n. However, experience tells me that fanaticism occurs more frequently amongst those most deeply immersed in their hobby. A constant eye on the wallet and a generally pragmatic attitude seems to ward it off.  
 
Incidentally, not much is said here about the economic aspects of this hobby beyond "sorry for your wallet", and I'm glad Lunatique has raised the point of over-spending. Also, I'm not sure we always realize what enormous influence we have with our reviews and opinions, not just on enquirers but lurkers (especially when we've got "Headphonius Supremus" or whatever after our monickers). I've often been surprised after making a casual comment to find someone desperately seeking clarification before making an expensive purchase, or making the purchase and then saying they based it on "what someone here said" (Eek! It wasn't me!). I think we should remind posters and non-posters alike that everything said here is opinion, that there are so many variables of equipment, expectation, music tastes and ear-shapes that nothing should be taken as more than a guide. Maybe it should be an announcement in BOLD at the top of the page.
 
 
Mar 20, 2011 at 2:31 AM Post #394 of 500
You mean... some of you don't spend money just for bragging rights?
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Mar 20, 2011 at 2:32 AM Post #395 of 500


Quote:
Something tangential I've noticed about hifi is that sometimes there's this sense of "enhanced reality" as I call it, where the recordings you listen to sound better than real life. I go to the symphony quite often, yet when I listen to classical music on my rig I swear it almost feels like it's better than the real thing. Can it be? Or is it just the proximity and the tweaking and all the hoodoo voodoo that makes it seem more real than real? And yes, I even get that feeling with mp3s.



Don't forget that classical recordings are made with the mics much closer than an audience member would normally be sitting, so tend to pick up details you'll never hear in the 12th row. But I get the feeling greater detail is not what you mean.  
 
 
Mar 20, 2011 at 2:42 AM Post #396 of 500


Quote:
Nor would I ever suggest anything so heretical, olor1n. However, experience tells me that fanaticism occurs more frequently amongst those most deeply immersed in their hobby. A constant eye on the wallet and a generally pragmatic attitude seems to ward it off.  
 
Incidentally, not much is said here about the economic aspects of this hobby beyond "sorry for your wallet", and I'm glad Lunatique has raised the point of over-spending. Also, I'm not sure we always realize what enormous influence we have with our reviews and opinions, not just on enquirers but lurkers (especially when we've got "Headphonius Supremus" or whatever after our monickers). I've often been surprised after making a casual comment to find someone desperately seeking clarification before making an expensive purchase, or making the purchase and then saying they based it on "what someone here said" (Eek! It wasn't me!). I think we should remind posters and non-posters alike that everything said here is opinion, that there are so many variables of equipment, expectation, music tastes and ear-shapes that nothing should be taken as more than a guide. Maybe it should be an announcement in BOLD at the top of the page.
 


If you don't want to be liable, there's always that space in your sig for a disclaimer.
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I don't think everything stated on these forums need to be tagged with an IMO. The onus is on the reader to distinguish the obvious. I agree that hyperbole (on both sides) needs to be countered with balanced and differing views though. It's just that the attempt to get these differing views across often leads to a ruckus where good intents are usually decimated. Lunatique spoke of pragmatism, but so did Skylab.
 
People need to remember there are varying degrees. It's not black and white. There's no us and them. Someone's barely indistinguishable improvements is someone else' audio nirvana. Why take that away from them?
 
Mar 20, 2011 at 2:49 AM Post #397 of 500
As someone who is in the market for a headphone amplifier, I welcome what the OP has undertaken and the way in which, he is going about it. I've also enjoyed reading the discussion and debate that his efforts have generated. The differences of opinion and belief that I have seen here recur throughout this forum. 
 
Mar 20, 2011 at 6:16 AM Post #398 of 500


 
Quote:
 
 
People need to remember there are varying degrees. It's not black and white. There's no us and them. Someone's barely indistinguishable improvements is someone else' audio nirvana. Why take that away from them?



I don't think it's a question of taking anything away from anyone as of realizing that, with headphones even more than speakers, impressions are not transferable, that even top-of-the-line Stax stuff may not suit everyone, or may suit in terms of sound quality but be uncomfortable, or creak annoyingly on fat heads, or whatever. It's hard to think of a subject with more personal variables than headphones, and newbies in particular need to be aware that even the ultimate, Universal Headphonius Supremus (where is he, by the way?) can't guarantee that anything he recommends will suit someone else. Consequently when we start to get dogmatic about the audio nirvana we've discovered, we need to remember not just that it might well seem mediocre to someone else, but that something half as expensive might have seemed just as good. 
 
 
Mar 20, 2011 at 6:21 AM Post #399 of 500

 
Quote:
As someone who is in the market for a headphone amplifier, I welcome what the OP has undertaken and the way in which, he is going about it. I've also enjoyed reading the discussion and debate that his efforts have generated. The differences of opinion and belief that I have seen here recur throughout this forum. 


 
And if you've noticed that, maybe you're not a bumblingbooby after all.  
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Incidentally, if you're in the market for a headphone amplifier don't forget to consider the possibility of using an integrated amp or even HT receiver. Don't assume that it needs to be a dedicated amp, as speaker amps can often give surprisingly good results.
 
 
 
Mar 20, 2011 at 7:50 AM Post #400 of 500


Quote:
As someone who is in the market for a headphone amplifier, I welcome what the OP has undertaken and the way in which, he is going about it. I've also enjoyed reading the discussion and debate that his efforts have generated. The differences of opinion and belief that I have seen here recur throughout this forum. 


I agree completely. I think I have been converted to finding an amplifier described as "a wire with gain", with a beefy power supply in a separate enclosure and the ability to drive most if not all the headphones I'll collect in future. Still haven't made up my mind about DAC's though :p
 
 
Mar 20, 2011 at 9:55 AM Post #401 of 500
What I did find particularly interesting is that the OP noticed a difference between solid state and tube amps; referring to the "sweetness" and "romantic" quality that tubes impart to the sound. I was wondering if he detected any difference in the level of transparency and three dimensional imaging between the two types of amplifier?   
 
Mar 20, 2011 at 10:32 AM Post #402 of 500
Quote:Originally Posted by bumblingbooby 

"... I was wondering if he detected any difference in the level of transparency and three dimensional imaging between the two types of amplifier?"


I have noticed, to me at least, that different tubes make a difference in the level of transparency and imaging. Each tube paring has it's own characteristics. To many that's part of the fun of rolling tubes.
 
Mar 20, 2011 at 1:37 PM Post #404 of 500

 
Quote:
Don't forget that classical recordings are made with the mics much closer than an audience member would normally be sitting, so tend to pick up details you'll never hear in the 12th row. But I get the feeling greater detail is not what you mean.  
 


The detailing has a bit to do with it, but it's just the whole recreation of it. Sometimes the "fake" just winds up sounding a bit better than the "real" to the ear somehow. It could be the recording process, the remastering, the digital processing, your room acoustics, the fact that you're sitting in a comfy chair, no noisy/stinky people nearby, just the way the transducers produce sound, the glass of wine/coffee/snapple in your hand, etc.
 
And really, change any one of these innumerable factors and your music will sound different. Maybe very little, maybe a lot, who knows.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
It's hard to think of a subject with more personal variables than headphones


Religion, politics, sports, women, wine, etc
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p.s. not necessarily in that order
 
Mar 20, 2011 at 2:06 PM Post #405 of 500
I'm very surprised by the dialogue between certain head-fier's. It is certainly sophisticated, sometimes rational and at others illogical-- and emotional.
 
Very insightful, yet informal. And to my pleasure, very interesting.
 

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