[musicman59]

 
Quote:

Thanks for the feedback. Has anyone heard the HE-6s out of a Woo Audi WA6-SE or a Bottlehead S.E.X.?

 
I know the WA5-LE drives them ok and the WA5 out of the K1000 output drives them even better. I doubt any other Woo will do them justice.

 

[amcananey]

[OK...deep breath....put on flame-retardant suit...]

I dunno, maybe I'm just crazy, but the HE-6s don't seem THAT hard to drive...

...as long as you use a solid state amp. My Audio-Gd NFB-10SE doesn't even break a sweat driving these through the balanced output. When set on high gain, my M^3 only needed to got to about 12 o'clock on the volume pot. Heck, even my little O2 did a good job on high gain (although admittedly set to 3 o'clock on the volume pot). I'm getting my Neco Soundlab MOSFET amp this week, and don't expect it to have any problems, either.

In contrast, my SinglePower MPX3 didn't even pretend to put up a fight. At full volume it still wasn't loud and just produced tons of distortion. I haven't tried my Woo Audio WA6, but I expect a very similar result.

So long story short, I think the HE-6s just like solid state amps. Beyond that, I'm not quite sure what all the fuss is about. Maybe I just haven't given these enough time, or haven't heard an EF-6 and therefore don't know what the HE-6s are truly capable of, but they sound pretty damn sweet to me out of the above, and the NFB-10SE in particular. At some point I'll get around to trying them directly off the speaker taps of my Vincent SV-236 Mk...

And just to avoid any doubt, I like my music loud. I don't listen to jazz or classical at polite volume levels, I listen to contemporary music at rude levels. I took off the HE-6s to get something from the other room, and was shocked how they sounded like miniature speakers...

 

[Gradofan2]

 
Quote:

[OK...deep breath....put on flame-retardant suit...]
I dunno, maybe I'm just crazy, but the HE-6s don't seem THAT hard to drive...
...as long as you use a solid state amp. My Audio-Gd NFB-10SE doesn't even break a sweat driving these through the balanced output. When set on high gain, my M^3 only needed to got to about 12 o'clock on the volume pot. Heck, even my little O2 did a good job on high gain (although admittedly set to 3 o'clock on the volume pot). I'm getting my Neco Soundlab MOSFET amp this week, and don't expect it to have any problems, either.
In contrast, my SinglePower MPX3 didn't even pretend to put up a fight. At full volume it still wasn't loud and just produced tons of distortion. I haven't tried my Woo Audio WA6, but I expect a very similar result.
So long story short, I think the HE-6s just like solid state amps. Beyond that, I'm not quite sure what all the fuss is about. Maybe I just haven't given these enough time, or haven't heard an EF-6 and therefore don't know what the HE-6s are truly capable of, but they sound pretty damn sweet to me out of the above, and the NFB-10SE in particular. At some point I'll get around to trying them directly off the speaker taps of my Vincent SV-236 Mk...
And just to avoid any doubt, I like my music loud. I don't listen to jazz or classical at polite volume levels, I listen to contemporary music at rude levels. I took off the HE-6s to get something from the other room, and was shocked how they sounded like miniature speakers...

 
Without regard to the relative volume levels... what was the quality of the sound from each of these amps with the HE-6's?   Was any better than the others, or were they all about the same... and... did they drive the HE-6's to their optimum sound quality?
 
When I had the HE-500's, I found several amps would drive them to reasonable volume levels... BUT... the sound was thick, syrupy, and muddy out of all of them, including the HiFiMan EF-5, which was recommended by HiFiMan.   Yet others report that with "the right amp" (e.g. Isabellina, or Isabella) their sound is as good as the best phones available.  It would seem the same would be true of the HE-6's - that selected amps would drive them to their optimum sound quality, while others won't.  

 

[amcananey]

I had that problem with both my HE-400s and my HE-500s. In short, the same answer held true: they sounded thick, slow and muddy out of tube amps (WA6, SinglePower MPX3, Eddie Current Laconic EC-01) and good (for the HE-400) or wonderful (for the HE-500) out of solid state amps. My favorite amp for my HE-500s is my Neco Soundlab PORTABLE amp. Crazy? Sure, but I know what I hear. I've recommended the Neco to two others for use with the HE-500 and they were blown away. Build quality is absolutely phenomenal to match the sound quality and they are relatively cheap.

As to your specific question, the NFB-10SE > M^3 > O2. The Audio-Gd is definitely the best. I thought I heard a bit more noise with the M^3. No particular complaints with the O2, but I suspect it would start to clip if I turned the volume up higher. But to be clear, the sound was NOT muddy out of any of these. The HE-6s sounded marvelous. Check my profile...I know what good gear sounds like. Was this the best the HE-6s can sound? No idea. I'll get around to trying them with my Vincent amp at some point, and we will find out then.

 

[amcananey]

"That's all well and good in practice, Mr. McAnaney, but how does it hold up in theory?"
 
--------------------------------------------
 
Prior to receiving my HE-6s, I was concerned about my ability to drive them adequately with my current gear, given all the hype on Head-Fi about how hard they are to drive [Side note #1: Why does everyone on Head-Fi feel compelled these days to brag about how hard their headphones are to drive, like it's some sort of macho status symbol? It's like watching a bunch of adolescent boys arguing about the size of their....oh, nevermind], hype that I now consider largely misplaced.
 
Anyway, I happened to remember that in the 6 Moons review of the HE-6*, Srajan Ebaen mentioned driving the HE-6s with a Dayens Ampino speaker amp with good results. The Dayens Ampino is a 25/40 wpc speaker amp that won a 6 Moons Realsization award. Unfortunately, from personal experience I know that the price of the Ampino skyrocketed after it received the award and it was therefore out of my budget for this little experiment. I did, however, recall another little amp that won also won a Realsization award, the Trends TA-10.2 (see the 6 Moons review here). The TA-10.2 is even smaller and cheaper (only $189!) than the Ampino, but is only 15W into 4 Ohm, and 10W into 8 Ohm. Being a naive little boy unschooled in the ways of the world, I assumed that anything that can drive full size speakers can drive a pair of headphones, so I went ahead and ordered the SE version from KAB Electro Acoustics. After placing my order, it was pointed out to me that 10W into 8 Ohms implies something like 1.25W (maybe a little more) into 50 Ohm, if you assume that W halves as impedance doubles.
 
Now, we all know that the HE-6 requires, nay DEMANDS something like 6W (preferably more) to show it's TRUE character, right? I mean, sure, you might get it loud enough with some plebian amp, but to reveal the HE-6's dynamics, its detail, it's impact, it's full load of fairy pixie dust goodness, it needs >5W, right? [Side note #2: Where does this 5W number come from? I see there is an uncredited reference to it in the 6 Moons review of the HE-6, but does anybody know the original source of that number? Has anybody actually TESTED it to see if it's true?] And preferably you should be hooking your HE-6's up to some sort of 250 or even 500 wpc behemoth of a Class A speaker amp, right?
 
Having edjumicated myself by reading the HE-6 threads on Head-Fi over the weekend, I realized what a colossal mistake I had made. Not only was my Audio-Gd NFB-10SE (which puts 6W into 50 Ohms) insufficient to drive the HE-6s to their TRUE potential, but my little Trends amp had absolutely zero chance of driving the HE-6s with it's implied ~1.25W. I was going to have to eat the shipping charges and the restocking fee when the TA-10.2SE arrived, which it did yesterday.
 
I briefly considered not even opening the box and just returning it in its original carton to avoid any kind of claim that I was returning used goods. But curiosity killed the cat Adam, so I had to open it and take a look. The TA-10.2 is about the size of 3 ipod Classics stacked on top of eachother, or roughly 1/200th the size of my Vincent SV-236 Mk. This thing can drive full-size speakers? I decided to see if it could power my HE-500s, since they should need far less power than the HE-6s. So I grabbed my speaker tap to 4-pin XLR adapter and wired it to the TA-10.2 outputs. My HE-500s had the TRS cable attached to them, and I was feeling lazy, given that I was about to pack this thing up and send it back to KAB, so I decided to just give it a shot with the HE-6s, which had a balanced cable attached. I plugged the RCA interconnects from the NFB-10SE into the TA-10.2 and, starting with the volume turned all the way down, began to listen.
 
Miraculously, there was sound. And at about 12 o'clock on the Trends' volume pot, it was bordering on being uncomfortably loud.
 
Even weirder....it sounded good. Really good. Exceptionally good. Really, truly, honest-to-goodness flat-out excellent. Impossible! Suddenly, the earth shook, the skies opened up, hailstones barraged my house, lightning flashed, a pig flew by and Satan wheeled by selling ice cream.
 
At that point, I noticed that my NFB-10SE was set to low gain (don't ask me why, but even when set to fixed output through the RCA outputs, although the volume control itself is disabled, the volume still changes with the gain setting). So I pushed the button to switch to high gain. My head split open, I was thrown across the room and --- ears ringing --- I jabbed at the gain setting to go back to low gain. What thug had clocked me upside the head, and had he taken any valuables? After checking my wallet and waiting for my skull to stop vibrating, I considered the situation. One of three things was necessarily true:
 
A: The HE-6s do not, in fact, need 6W.
B: The output of the TA-10.2 doesn't drop linearly as impedance rises, so that it is actually putting much more into 50 Ohms than just 1.25W.
C: My house sits in the middle of a tear in the space-time continuum where the laws of Head-Fi don't apply.
 
Given the impossibility of A and B, I immediately called NASA to investigate C.
 
-----------------------------------------------------
 
OK, look. The HE-6s sound really, really good with the TA-10.2. Dynamics, detail, control, power, frequency extension, you name it, it's there. Pixie dust by the boatload. It's not just volume. I know what underpowered headphones sound like, and this isn't it. Not even close. The HE-6s sing out of the TA-10.2. Don't believe me? Fine. Think I don't know what good gear sounds like? Erm, try again - check my profile. I'm just trying to do everyone a favor here and debunk some of the giant misconceptions that are being perpetuated. You don't have to go out and buy an EF-6 or a Dark Star to drive the HE-6s phenomenally well. If you want to, then by all means, go ahead, but there are other options that don't require you to rummage around garage sales for 200 pound amps and receivers from the 1970s. Here is an amp, available new, for under $200, that hardly takes up any space, that can be delivered to you in 2 days, and that will drive your HE-6s into bliss-inducing territory. Try it, you won't be disappointed.
 
*Please, don't complain to me about 6 Moons reviews. I know, all their reviews are over-hyped, they claim everything is better than whatever they reviewed last, everything is a giant-killer that slays gear costing 10x as much, etc. etc. I get it. I don't care about the 6 Moons review. I care about what I hear. And I'm telling you that the TA-10.2 sounds great with the HE-6s because I actually tried it, instead of just relying on theory or taking someone else's word for what the HE-6s "really" need based on some Internet myth and a set of technical specifications.

 

[sridhar3]

Quote:
 
Why are you cross-posting between the two threads?

 

[amcananey]

Because when I am trying to find information, it is convenient if the information is all in one place, rather than split among 2 or 3 threads. It would obviously be preferable if there were a single thread on these subjects to avoid this problem, but that is no longer possible. And once more than one thread has been established, the only way to keep information the same in both is by cross-posting. I'm also hardly the first person in this thread to do so. I assume you sent the others PMs with the same question?

 

[sridhar3]

Quote:

I assume you sent the others PMs with the same question?

 
I didn't send you any PMs.  Just thought I'd mention that cross-posting is generally frowned-upon by the moderating staff.  Beyond that, you're free to do as you choose.

 

[Kernmac]

Deleted

 

[amcananey]

Sorry, but read more carefully. I clearly wrote "prior to receiving my HE-6s, I was concerned about my ability to drive them adequately with my current gear". I didn't write "after trying the HE-6's with my existing gear, but prior to receiving the Trends amp, I was concerned...".
 
If you want a breakdown of the sequence of events, here it is:
 
1. I agree to buy HE-6s (but haven't received them yet)
2. I get worried that my amps won't be powerful enough, based on posts on Head-Fi
3. I order the Trends TA-10.2SE
4. I am informed that the Trends will only put 1.25W into 50 Ohms, which is far too little for the HE-6s.
5. I research claim that the HE-6s really need 5-6W into 50 Ohms.
6. I receive the HE-6s in the mail and try them with my Audio-Gd NFB-10SE which drives them without any problem whatsoever. I also try them with my M^3 and Objective O2. All seem fine. I have no idea what their output is, but I do know that they are rated for use with 50+ Ohm resistance headphones.
7. I make my initial post, #287 in this thread, pointing out that the HE-6s don't seem that hard to drive.
8. I receive responses indicating that I am missing out, and that the HE-6s aren't revealing their "true" nature.
9. I receive my Trends amp and consider sending it back. I know what the output of the Trends amp into 4/8 Ohm loads is, but this implies output into 50 Ohms of only 1.25W, as indicated earlier.
10. I decide to try the Trends amp anyway.
11. I am pleasantly surprised by the sound.
12. I make my second post, #290 in this thread.
 
Could my findings in step 10 & 11 have been influenced by my findings in step 6? Sure. But I've done plenty of A/B comparisons since, and they stand up. The HE-6s driven by my existing amps sound comparable to my HE-500s and HD800s being driven by those amps, leading me to believe that my amps have sufficient power to drive the HE-6s, and all these claims about the HE-6s needing an ueber-amp to reveal their "true" nature is a load of bunk.
 
But answer this question: why am I being held to standards of scientific rigor, yet the dozens upon dozens of people who perpetuate the claim that the HE-6s need 5-6W into 50 Ohms are not?
 
At least I have tried the HE-6s with supposedly underpowered amps, and done a comparison against easier to drive (but top quality) headphones being driven by amps known to be sufficiently powerful to drive those headphones. The fact that the results were comparable is at least evidence that the HE-6s were not, in fact, underpowered. Moreover, I have found out that the Audio-Gd NFB-10SE actually puts 6W into 50 Ohms. Did it sound better than the other amps? I can't speak for all, simply because I wasn't interested enough to do multiple A/B tests, but it didn't sound better than the Trends amp, which supposedly has less than 1/4 the power. And the fact that the Trends amp was already close to uncomfortably loud at 12 o'clock indicates that it had plenty of power to spare. I see no reason to believe that it, or any of the other amps, was distorting.
 
What is the evidence on the other side? Are you holding them to a similar standard?
 
There are two possibilities: (a) my wishful thinking led me to ignore the distortion and poor sound of the HE-6s out of the "underpowered" amps, even when compared to a well-amped HD800, or (b) notwithstanding the trivial flaws in my methodology, the HE-6s don't actually need 5-6W.
 
Hmmmmm........which of the above is more likely? And why would someone who ALREADY has an amp capable of putting 5-6W into 50 Ohms (namely my Audio-Gd NFB-10SE) have an interest in arguing that the HE-6s don't need anywhere near such power?
 
Regards,
Adam

 

[amcananey]

Quote:

Deleted

 Thank you.

 

[sridhar3]

Quote:

all these claims about the HE-6s needing an ueber-amp to reveal their "true" nature is a load of bunk.

 
After reading your long, elaborate post, I'm not sure whether you're trying to convince us or convince yourself.  Either way, your argument isn't going to hold a great deal of merit unless you actually decide to try an "ueber[sic] amp" with your HE-6.  What really boggles me is that you already have such an amp in your possession, so it wouldn't require any cash outlay on your part.  Your posts seem to say, "I have an amp that can potentially drive the HE-6 extremely well, but I utterly refuse to try it.  Let me tell you why."
 
At the end of the day, you don't have to do anything you don't want to.  But don't expect your assertions to be described as credible evidence that your current amplification is as good as something that you've never heard before.  It's pure speculation, not an evidence-based argument.  If you're at all curious and you want a solid comparator as a point of reference for your musings, then try the Vincent.  If you don't, then I expect there's not much left to discuss.

 

[amcananey]

You don't get it. My argument isn't that the Trends or any of my other amps cannot be improved upon by some marginal degree when used with the HE-6s. My argument is that the HE-6s aren't as hard to drive as everyone insists and certainly don't require 5-6W. Period. Full stop. That's it.
 
Maybe the HE-6s get incrementally better by some immeasurable degree if you use them with a 500W amp, but it is hard to see why that would be the case and, anyway, that doesn't detract from my basic point. By analogy, my HD800s may be marginally better if driven by a $3,750 Zana Deux, but that doesn't mean they sound like doggie-doo out of my WA6, MPX3, EC-01, NFB-10SE, O2, M^3, Neco Soundlab BOSFET, etc.
 
I'm not claiming that the Trends (or any of my other amps) is the absolute best amp for the HE-6 and that it is insurmountable. I'm claiming that the Trends and my other amps are more than adequate to drive the HE-6 to high performance levels, where it's true character is revealed. I don't need to run it off the best possible amp (not that such a thing exists) to understand what the HE-6 sounds like when performing well. And I'm not missing out on a world of goodness by only using it with my existing amps. Maybe I'm missing out on that last 0.1% (or maybe 1% or 0.01%). But it isn't like I'm listening to a bunch of distortion and garbage because my amps are so woefully underpowered.
 
Please explain to me what is controversial about my claim. Then provide me with your evidence that the HE-6 requires 5-6W (other than: because that's what hundreds of Head-Fi posts have said).
 
 

 

[amcananey]

And to repeat: I have an amp that puts 6W into 50 Ohms. I'm not trying to justify my amps. I'm just trying to explode this myth that the HE-6 is some sort of monolith that is so hard to drive. I am convinced that that notion has only been perpetuated because people treat it like some sort of macho status symbol. Are the HE-6s less sensitive than other headphones? Yes. So what? "Less sensitive" does not equal "impossible to drive adequately unless using a 500W speaker amp".

 

[amcananey]

Quote:

"ueber[sic] amp"

 
Also: there is no need for the [sic] notation as my spelling is not erroneous. I am a German citizen and speak German fluently. The true German spelling is "über". But when writing on keyboards that don't have umlauts, it is common, accepted and proper to spell "ü" as "ue", "ä" as "ae", etc.