Am I (sonically) blind

[gregorio]

Woaaah. Didn't mean to unleash a sh1tst0rm.

But to all - thank you very much for the suggestions.

My first set of IEMs were a cheapo Sony set, which came free with my Walkman back in 1993 - yes I am no longer young.

My current gear was what I listed. I have had at various times in the past

1. Oppo PM3
2. Oppo HA2
3. Radsone ES100
4. Sennheiser HD650
5. Shure SE215

After a few initial iterations on IEMs, I settled on the IE7 (this was roughly 2009). This love affair continued through time. I bought the Oppo PM3 / HA2 when it was released out of curiosity on planar magnetics and because I wanted a set of cans. Lasted a few years, but I always went back to IEMs. Then the AK t8ie mk2 was launched - loved the sound and purchased that. In the middle somewhere, I borrowed the HD650 for an extended period of time, but didn't much care for it. This excludes the countless Samsung and Apple free earphones which came with phones, airpods and a bunch of cheap Sony IEMs.

Apart from this, I currently use

1. BW MT-1 / Denon AVR X1600H
2. Dynaudio Audience 62 / Myryad Z120 / Cambridge Audio CXN V2
3. Ruark Audio MR1 / iFi Zen Signature / PC
4. Yamaha HS8

I would argue that while I am nowhere close to what you guys probably have or have tried, I have gone through a little bit of kit myself.

The suggestion of trying out new gear is interesting - but in Singapore (where I live) it is not the easiest. Even if I were to try and "sonically expand" my journey, how would I even make out the difference between two transducers without some serious listening? What would I be looking for? I can't even figure out the difference in what I have - how would I stack that up with other kit? Unless someone is telling me for a fact that the AK T8ie Mk2 AND the Sennheiser IE7 IEMs are CRAP.

Now back to questioning. 2 to add to my list

1. I returned the dongle I mentioned in my original post and bought a new one. Again a small Chinese company called Keysion with a Cirrus 46L41 chip embedded. The hiss is gone - so this construction is definitely better. However - and this is what I am not able to understand - when I listen to music with this dongle, my ears start getting tired super fast. I am unsure why. It is almost physically painful - and I am not turning this up to high volumes. This doesn't happen when I run the BTR5. Any thoughts why?

2. On the same dongle - if I tweak with the EQ / surround settings on my phone, I can hear a difference (not saying good or bad - just different, noticeably so). Does this mean the DAC in the dongle is not working? IF the phone was supplying a digital signal to the dongle, wouldn't it be unadorned? and if the DAC isn't working - then is the dongle merely pulling out audio over USB (which again implies using a DAC... but perhaps after an ADC?). Confused about this

3. I am using Spotify and the S21 as mentioned earlier. Technically - and this is purely technical - should I expect things to improve with a better DAC (again, assuming the dongle I have is cr@p). I am talking abt $50US spend roughly (say something like the Hidizs S3 Pro). Or would this "improvement" be marred by my phone resampling stuff? Is this resampling even important? If it disturbs the chain, should I just stick to using Bluetooth?

Cheers, and thank for all the fish.

Don’t worry, we commonly get a sh1tst0rm here when discussing audible/inaudible differences, from those indoctrinated by audiophile marketing, who either don’t know or can’t accept the science/facts. To your questions:

1. A dongle is an integrated DAC and amp. Most likely, the hiss was due to the amp section of your old dongle not having sufficient power for your particular IEMs. Your new one probably has more, which is why the hiss has gone and probably why you are experiencing more fatigue, even though the volume maybe set lower than previously.

2. When you tweak the EQ/settings on your phone, you are tweaking the digital audio data your phone is outputting to your dongle. The DAC in your dongle is working but with a different (tweaked) digital audio signal.

3. You should not expect things to improve with a better DAC and you should not assume your current DAC is cr@p. While I haven’t measured the DACs/dongles you’re using, the technology is now so advanced, so standard and so cheap that it’s unlikely they are bad enough to be audibly different. By way of example, a 5 year old Apple dongle that originally cost $9 is incredibly accurate/linear. Well beyond the human ear to detect and more accurate/linear than some audiophile DACs costing 200 times more. The only question that could be a realistic issue is the output power/impedance of it’s amp, depending on the IEMs/HPs.

Again with resampling, the technology to do this without audible artefacts has been around for 20+ years and is today standard and very cheap. While it’s not impossible that your phone has such terrible resampling that it’s actually audible, that’s very unlikely in any modern phone.

G

 

[hoofman]

... By way of example, a 5 year old Apple dongle that originally cost $9 is incredibly accurate/linear. Well beyond the human ear to detect and more accurate/linear than some audiophile DACs costing 200 times more. The only question that could be a realistic issue is the output power/impedance of it’s amp, depending on the IEMs/HPs.

Hi thanks for sharing. Say if we put the output from this Apple dongle through a really good amp that is powerful enough to drive the IEMs/HPs, will it match the performance of another expensive DAC and amp combo? (assuming that we don't want any colorising effect from the expensive DAC)
I'm curious if there is any sound quality related benefit that makes the audiophile DACs 200 times more than the Apple dongle.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Don’t worry, we commonly get a sh1tst0rm here when discussing audible/inaudible differences, from those indoctrinated by audiophile marketing, who either don’t know or can’t accept the science/facts. To your questions:

1. A dongle is an integrated DAC and amp. Most likely, the hiss was due to the amp section of your old dongle not having sufficient power for your particular IEMs. Your new one probably has more, which is why the hiss has gone and probably why you are experiencing more fatigue, even though the volume maybe set lower than previously.

2. When you tweak the EQ/settings on your phone, you are tweaking the digital audio data your phone is outputting to your dongle. The DAC in your dongle is working but with a different (tweaked) digital audio signal.

3. You should not expect things to improve with a better DAC and you should not assume your current DAC is cr@p. While I haven’t measured the DACs/dongles you’re using, the technology is now so advanced, so standard and so cheap that it’s unlikely they are bad enough to be audibly different. By way of example, a 5 year old Apple dongle that originally cost $9 is incredibly accurate/linear. Well beyond the human ear to detect and more accurate/linear than some audiophile DACs costing 200 times more. The only question that could be a realistic issue is the output power/impedance of it’s amp, depending on the IEMs/HPs.

Again with resampling, the technology to do this without audible artefacts has been around for 20+ years and is today standard and very cheap. While it’s not impossible that your phone has such terrible resampling that it’s actually audible, that’s very unlikely in any modern phone.

G

@timechaser


#3
This is absolutely perfect. Simply a test. Go into Music Sanctuary and bring an Apple Dongle. Use say a Sony WM1A and a couple different IEMs and try to see (hear) if you can actually tell the difference from the Dongle to the DAP? Who knows? Simply try to find out if the DAP makes the music sound different or worse/better. That would be a simple subjective test. Also if you like bring the duplicate album on your phone and an micro SD card. Have a friend exchange the IEM for the Dongle or DAP and have them try and equal the volume and try to tell the difference. Many of us feel the DAP was a good investment?

But who knows, as it could be Audio-Tom-Foolery? We absolutely could be mislead?

 

[gregorio]

I'm curious if there is any sound quality related benefit that makes the audiophile DACs 200 times more than the Apple dongle.

That depends on what you mean by “sound quality related benefit”. In some cases there could be a sound quality benefit but it could only be a benefit in terms of inaudible measurements. In some other cases, such as so called tube DACs or NOS DACs for example, it would only be a benefit if you consider lower fidelity to be a benefit.

Assuming that you mean an audible benefit that is higher fidelity, then no, there’s no sound quality benefit.

G

 

[timechaser]

Your new one probably has more, which is why the hiss has gone and probably why you are experiencing more fatigue, even though the volume maybe set lower than previously

How can I take this fatigue away... I haven't ever experienced this before? Even if this has more power, shouldn't lowering the volume be sufficient for preventing fatigue? A bit confused by this.

The hiss on the older dongle was when there was no music playing. When the music did play, it sounded pretty great.

 

[gregorio]

Go into Music Sanctuary and bring an Apple Dongle. Use say a Sony WM1A and a couple different IEMs and try to see (hear) if you can actually tell the difference from the Dongle to the DAP? Who knows? Simply try to find out if the DAP makes the music sound different or worse/better. That would be a simple subjective test.

A showroom or a show is pretty much the very worst place to do a test. It’s specifically designed to convince you that what they’re selling is better than what you already have. Unfortunately in many instances, consumers don’t have much choice, buy blind or go to a store for “a simple subjective test” that’s designed to influence your subjectivity.

G

 

[timechaser]

I have no intention of spending more than US$50 in all this... And that too on connectivity between my IEM and the phone. Dongle, wire, Bluetooth - unsure yet. Certainly not new IEMs or a DAP for that matter.

If what is said is true i.e. DAC chips are cheap and easily then a solution should present itself easily. I have ordered a new cable (USD9) which runs USB-c to mmcx. Likely will return my dongle.

All else being equal - the cable would be ideal and cheap. So let's see how that goes.

 

[PhonoPhi]

Gotta love the "science" forum!

Preamble (thread starter): "I can't taste the difference between coffee and tea".

Group A: "You must taste connoisseur brands of coffees and teas to really appreciate and enjoy the difference".

Group B (some exhaustively long posts marginally touching on sounds of Universe and meaning of life): "It is perfectly OK, hydration is the most important after all, just enjoy your hydration".

Love you all, Happy New Year!

 

[hakunamakaka]

Woaaah. Didn't mean to unleash a sh1tst0rm.

But to all - thank you very much for the suggestions.

My first set of IEMs were a cheapo Sony set, which came free with my Walkman back in 1993 - yes I am no longer young.

My current gear was what I listed. I have had at various times in the past

1. Oppo PM3
2. Oppo HA2
3. Radsone ES100
4. Sennheiser HD650
5. Shure SE215

After a few initial iterations on IEMs, I settled on the IE7 (this was roughly 2009). This love affair continued through time. I bought the Oppo PM3 / HA2 when it was released out of curiosity on planar magnetics and because I wanted a set of cans. Lasted a few years, but I always went back to IEMs. Then the AK t8ie mk2 was launched - loved the sound and purchased that. In the middle somewhere, I borrowed the HD650 for an extended period of time, but didn't much care for it. This excludes the countless Samsung and Apple free earphones which came with phones, airpods and a bunch of cheap Sony IEMs.

Apart from this, I currently use

1. BW MT-1 / Denon AVR X1600H
2. Dynaudio Audience 62 / Myryad Z120 / Cambridge Audio CXN V2
3. Ruark Audio MR1 / iFi Zen Signature / PC
4. Yamaha HS8

I would argue that while I am nowhere close to what you guys probably have or have tried, I have gone through a little bit of kit myself.

The suggestion of trying out new gear is interesting - but in Singapore (where I live) it is not the easiest. Even if I were to try and "sonically expand" my journey, how would I even make out the difference between two transducers without some serious listening? What would I be looking for? I can't even figure out the difference in what I have - how would I stack that up with other kit? Unless someone is telling me for a fact that the AK T8ie Mk2 AND the Sennheiser IE7 IEMs are CRAP.

Now back to questioning. 2 to add to my list

1. I returned the dongle I mentioned in my original post and bought a new one. Again a small Chinese company called Keysion with a Cirrus 46L41 chip embedded. The hiss is gone - so this construction is definitely better. However - and this is what I am not able to understand - when I listen to music with this dongle, my ears start getting tired super fast. I am unsure why. It is almost physically painful - and I am not turning this up to high volumes. This doesn't happen when I run the BTR5. Any thoughts why?

2. On the same dongle - if I tweak with the EQ / surround settings on my phone, I can hear a difference (not saying good or bad - just different, noticeably so). Does this mean the DAC in the dongle is not working? IF the phone was supplying a digital signal to the dongle, wouldn't it be unadorned? and if the DAC isn't working - then is the dongle merely pulling out audio over USB (which again implies using a DAC... but perhaps after an ADC?). Confused about this

3. I am using Spotify and the S21 as mentioned earlier. Technically - and this is purely technical - should I expect things to improve with a better DAC (again, assuming the dongle I have is cr@p). I am talking abt $50US spend roughly (say something like the Hidizs S3 Pro). Or would this "improvement" be marred by my phone resampling stuff? Is this resampling even important? If it disturbs the chain, should I just stick to using Bluetooth?

Cheers, and thank for all the fish.

I owned few of the headphones that you mentioned and PM3 being the first step into higher end stuff. It is good for a portable use, but shows just a fraction of what good planars can do. HD650 is a bit overhyped in my books. Unfortunately to get a very noticeable improvements you would need to spend way more for a headphone as an upgrade. Something like Hifiman Arya//Focal Clear would show the next step up.

Same goes for iem, a good BA driver based IEM would definitely give you different flavor and improvement in technical area.

Are you using BTR5 over bluetooth ? To me bluetooth with AAC codec numbs whole presentation a bit, especially upper frequencies, but it is still better than apple dongle which sounds a bit harsh and tiring with my IEM

 

[Redcarmoose]

Gotta love the "science" forum!

Preamble (thread starter): "I can't taste the difference between coffee and tea".

Group A: "You must taste connoisseur brands of coffees and teas to really appreciate and enjoy the difference".

Group B (some exhaustively long posts marginally touching on sounds of Universe and meaning of life): "It is perfectly OK, hydration is the most important after all, just enjoy your hydration".

Love you all, Happy New Year!

 

[old tech]

Gotta love the "science" forum!

Preamble (thread starter): "I can't taste the difference between coffee and tea".

Group A: "You must taste connoisseur brands of coffees and teas to really appreciate and enjoy the difference".

Group B (some exhaustively long posts marginally touching on sounds of Universe and meaning of life): "It is perfectly OK, hydration is the most important after all, just enjoy your hydration".

Love you all, Happy New Year!

Not sure of the underlying point you are making here.

An audio analogy of a coffee v tea (connoisseur brand or not) is comparing two distinctly different pair of speakers or headphones. Science would clearly demonstrate the molecular and taste differences between coffee and tea.

Comparing the same exact same coffee (or tea), except one being a connoisseur brand in order to appreciate the difference is a different matter.

 

[timechaser]

The analogy with Coffee is interesting. I am not sure it is accurate but interesting enough. With coffee, there are measurable differences in how the beans are processed, roasted, pressed, what temperature and pressure water is used and how long the water push lasts... With coffee, the origin makes a big difference as well, given distinct flavour differentials between coffee growing regions.

Since we have happily dispersed all over the place, let me rephrase my question

"Help - I can't hear any difference between the combination of kit that I have? Am I missing something?"

The useful answer = "Listening is a learning process. You need to listen more to practice and try and distinguish and differentiate. It is entirely feasible that the differences either don't exist and/or are too subtle to be captured"

Not useful = "Bluetooth, chips etc. can change the sound and make it compressed. Need to try new IEMS and DAPS.."

(the last one almost sounds like Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My!)

I then added a separate question

"I got a new dongle but when I am listening to it, I feel fatigued. Why would that be the case?". Here fatigue is not a mere hallucination - I can feel my ears getting tired. Volume is low... but after some time I just want to give up.

And that's where we are at now. I am following up on the earlier (super useful) instructions on focusing on different parts of the music and listening.

And to suggestions that my IEMs are not up to scratch, and I should buy new ones etc. Unfortunately, I don't have the kind of money to upgrade where I am in my life right now. I need to extract the maximum from what I have, and enjoy that. US$50 is the maximum budget I have for playing.

If the lack of money to spend makes me less of an audiophile, I will happily excuse myself and go look for answers amongst the plebs.

Thank you to everyone for all the suggestions.

So and thanks for all the fish (once again).

 

[Redcarmoose]

Sound quality is subjective. Meaning that there has been changes in the IEM market but it really depends what you value, if it’s a value truly or not. Meaning in the last 5 years there has been some amazing Chinese IEMs. There of course will be a few that don’t think the market has changed dramatically, but I feel it has.

So a few of well chosen IEMs may dial the sound into what you are looking for. Though I haven’t heard what you have......there will be a few IEMs I recommend which I haven’t heard. Normally I only recommend stuff I have heard, but the prices are so good now. But a lot of the time it’s how hot the treble is, if you like it or not. It’s personal if the treble is your style. Also at times you have to listen for a day to learn if you like it.

So as far as great goes most would agree it’s an even and correct frequency response. Yet with-in that there are choices. So do you want slightly more bass? So do you want slightly more treble, what about a boosted midrange? And there are thousands of variations, including maybe soundstage? So you still need to get out and try stuff.

I would try the BLON BL03. Have not tried the BL03. That is a very very popular IEM. Maybe try the KBEAR Lark. That IEM I have and I really enjoy it. It costs $29.99. The BLON BLO3 is $39.99. There are lots more in this price range which are fantastic. Don’t judge them by price as the value quotas have evolved!

The Tripowin TC-01 is another, it’s at Linsoul now for $39.20. I have experience with the TC-01. Another that’s great is the BLON BL-01, it is $22.90 right now on Amazon. That’s one also that I have.

The amount of IEMs near you to try is almost endless. There is the TripowinxHBB Mele which I have not tried but it’s $47.99 at Linsoul. That’s a looker, as well as slightly heavy on the bass side, I have heard!

Just go out and try stuff! You would be surprised how much sound you can buy for $50.00. Still it has to fit your sound signature to be worth anything in the end. That’s why listening to it first is important. Possibly many of these are to try out where you live. I was totally surprised how much things have changed! I also have lots more stuff I can talk about but I think you get the idea? PM me with a list of stuff to try under $50.00.

The analogy with Coffee is interesting. I am not sure it is accurate but interesting enough. With coffee, there are measurable differences in how the beans are processed, roasted, pressed, what temperature and pressure water is used and how long the water push lasts... With coffee, the origin makes a big difference as well, given distinct flavour differentials between coffee growing regions.

Since we have happily dispersed all over the place, let me rephrase my question

"Help - I can't hear any difference between the combination of kit that I have? Am I missing something?"

The useful answer = "Listening is a learning process. You need to listen more to practice and try and distinguish and differentiate. It is entirely feasible that the differences either don't exist and/or are too subtle to be captured"

Not useful = "Bluetooth, chips etc. can change the sound and make it compressed. Need to try new IEMS and DAPS.."

(the last one almost sounds like Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My!)

I then added a separate question

"I got a new dongle but when I am listening to it, I feel fatigued. Why would that be the case?". Here fatigue is not a mere hallucination - I can feel my ears getting tired. Volume is low... but after some time I just want to give up.

And that's where we are at now. I am following up on the earlier (super useful) instructions on focusing on different parts of the music and listening.

And to suggestions that my IEMs are not up to scratch, and I should buy new ones etc. Unfortunately, I don't have the kind of money to upgrade where I am in my life right now. I need to extract the maximum from what I have, and enjoy that. US$50 is the maximum budget I have for playing.

If the lack of money to spend makes me less of an audiophile, I will happily excuse myself and go look for answers amongst the plebs.

Thank you to everyone for all the suggestions.

So and thanks for all the fish (once again).

 

[timechaser]

Thanks redcarmoose. That's a useful suggestion. Let me ping you separately on this...

 

[gregorio]

The analogy with Coffee is interesting. I am not sure it is accurate but interesting enough.

I am pretty sure it’s not accurate enough. More accurate would have been comparing two different coffees as @old tech explained.

"I got a new dongle but when I am listening to it, I feel fatigued. Why would that be the case?". Here fatigue is not a mere hallucination - I can feel my ears getting tired.

There’s not enough information to really answer that question. There are several possible reasons, for example, even with the volume setting lower, the amount of acoustic energy reaching your ears could be higher (due to a more powerful amp), it might just be a certain frequency range that is higher, if the amp in the new dongle has a different impedance than the amp in the previous dongle and your particular IEMs are sensitive to it. And, unless we devise tests specifically to eliminate them, we can never be sure that it isn’t some form of bias or other perceptual effect. For example, maybe you are concentrating on listening more intently with this new dongle and obviously, more focused concentration is more fatiguing or maybe it’s just pure placebo.

Sound quality is subjective.

No it’s not. Assuming that “sound quality” means high-fidelity, a more than fair assumption as that’s in the definition of an audiophile, then it’s entirely objective, not subjective!

So as far as great goes most would agree it’s an even and correct frequency response. Yet with-in that there are choices. So do you want slightly more bass? So do you want slightly more treble, what about a boosted midrange?

No, within that there are not choices. It’s either “an even and correct frequency response” OR it isn’t. More bass, more treble or a boosted midrange are by definition a different frequency response and therefore NOT “an even and correct frequency response”! How many times have you stated this falsehood, been corrected and yet pop up in another thread and repeat that same falsehood all over again?

However, how we arrive at an even and correct frequency response can be quite convoluted. HPs and IEMs typically do not have an “even and correct frequency response” they commonly have an uneven (not linear/flat) response. This is to compensate for their presentation, for having the drivers right next to or inside the ear.

G