Am I (sonically) blind

[gregorio]

Thank you very much. I tried to focus on bits as you suggested, using the songs recommended here. Interestingly, I did notice some differences. From a curiosity perspective - they were interesting. From a real world perspective - i.e. impacting my enjoyment of music and/or making me cringe because something is wrong - there remains no difference. I guess I have a long journey ahead of me to learn.

You’re welcome. As I mentioned, it’s a never ending journey and in some regards a two edged sword. Do you really want to learn something that will impact your enjoyment? It’s likely that some of the music you enjoy now you will appreciate less if you’re consciously aware of more fine details that may not have been handled very well (by the musicians, engineers or producer).

On the other hand you may gain an appreciation of other music where those fine details were handled particularly well. Unfortunately, you can’t really turn it off, you can’t unlearn what you’ve learned. However, when you get down to really tiny, fine details, you can effectively turn it off to a degree because it requires very focused concentration and of course you can just choose not to concentrate so hard.

I wonder if there is any chance of observing differences if I were to say try out other DACs - wired or not. My IEMs are sensitive enough that even with the Fiio I am running them at ~50% of the volume. So a higher volume is not going to be a draw, but if I do go down to try some other DACs, would it be (a) worth it and (b) what would I want to look for?

In general, there are no audible differences between DACs. Although there are a few exceptions, such as some NOS DACs for example. So, in general it would not be worth it.

Although this is effectively anecdotal information it may help illustrate the point: I’ve been a professional sound/music engineer for nearly 30 years and before that I was an orchestral musician. Compared to the average person, I have very highly trained listening skills, a very high quality listening environment (studio) and so do other long term professional/commercial sound engineers. When we test pro-audio ADCs/DACs we create loop-back recordings; we take test signals and/or certain recordings we find revealing, output them from the DAC, take that output, loop it back to the input of the ADC and record it. Then take that recording and do it again, and again, until we’ve done it 10 times. Only then are we reliably able to identify differences!

G

 

[Kammerat Rebekka]

Being able to slip into the music and stay there deeply entranced without a care in the world is what it’s all about.
Ignorance is bliss…unless you want to work professionally with this kind of stuff.
Just my personal opinion for whatever it’s worth

 

[IDrinkLava]

Just my personal opinion for whatever it’s worth

Would you mind listing all the gear you own, including any cables and interconnects?

 

[earmonger]

If you're happy with what you've got -- as I am at the moment, with my Audio-Technica ATH-R70X -- there's no need to "upgrade."

You can, if you want, start listening to test tracks: things like "Why so Serious" by Hans Zimmer, which has a pure sub-bass stretch around 3:25 that will be near-silent on 'phones that can't get down there, or things with a lot of instruments going on at the same time in the same pitch range, like David Bowie's "Blackstar," to see how well you can hear individual elements. You can listen to things like the Band's "Music from Big Pink," which was recorded without a lot of effects or electronics and should sound like the unadorned instruments (although of course everything had to go through microphones). You can listen to how drums and cymbals sound on your favorite, how bass and drums stay separate or get blurred, whether horns and guitars sound real, whether voices are prominent or hidden or blended correctly.

Producers want their productions to sound good on everything, cheap or insanely expensive. They work hard to do that. Phil Spector used to listen to his songs through a 1950s car radio, not hi-fi by today's standards. The point of all of this shouldn't be consumption. It should be the happiness music brings. Whatever works for you is fine.

 

[timechaser]

Thank you. I am perfectly happy with what I have, just trying to explore and learn more. Like I said - till now, the nuances which I have found are quirky or super technical at best, but nothing has changed the enjoyment. I have no intention of upgrading or changing my kit, just looking to maximize the benefit.

Thank you as well for the songs. Will try those out for sure.

 

[bigshot]

I don't know what equipment you've got, but better sound usually comes from an upgrade of the headphones or speakers, not the electronics. And random upgrades will yield random results. Before you upgrade, think about what your system now isn't giving you and set a goal. Define exactly what you want, then go looking for it. That way you will end up with an improvement, not just a change.

 

[timechaser]

That makes a LOT of sense. I will do precisely what you suggest. Right now - I am not even certain if there is an improvement I can or should seek...

 

[bigshot]

Then the course of action is to listen to music!

 

[gregorio]

Being able to slip into the music and stay there deeply entranced without a care in the world is what it’s all about.
Ignorance is bliss…unless you want to work professionally with this kind of stuff.

That's certainly one approach and there's nothing "wrong" with it at all. However, there are a lot of people that go a fair bit deeper. Obviously there are not so many who go as deeply as those of us who "work professionally with this stuff" but there are quite a few who either take a particular interest in the production/mix, once played an instrument themselves and/or are aficionados (in classical music for example), for whom listening more intently/critically is "what it's all about" for them, and that's fine too.

Would you mind listing all the gear you own, including any cables and interconnects?

Not sure why you would want the cables and interconnects listed, no audible difference there.

[1] You can listen to things like the Band's "Music from Big Pink," which was recorded without a lot of effects or electronics and should sound like the unadorned instruments (although of course everything had to go through microphones). [2] You can listen to how drums and cymbals sound on your favorite, how bass and drums stay separate or get blurred, whether horns and guitars sond real, whether voices are prominent or hidden or blended correctly.

1. Personally, I generally find old recordings of very limited use. They maybe "unadorned" with relatively few effects, as is the case with "Music from Big Pink" but typically they do not represent what the "unadorned instruments" should sound like. Firstly, they still do use some effects. Secondly, microphone placement during recording doesn't represent what the instruments would sound like, for example mic'ing the kick drum by putting the mic inside the kick drum or DI'ing or putting the mic right up against the guitar cab. And also, the analogue recording technology of the day and subsequent degradation over time typically results in so much mid-high and HF loss that the instruments really don't sound much like they should.

2. The difficulty here is that all this is an artistic decision, that varies from band to band and even from track to track by the same band on the same album. For example, guitars rarely sound real in popular music genres (unavoidably so in many cases), same with horns. Sometimes the bass guitar and kick drum are blurred/blended to effectively sound like one instrument, while other times they're deliberately separated and the same with vocals. For example if the voices are "not prominent or hidden or not blended correctly" is this because: 1. Some imbalance in the reproduction chain is causing this perception? 2. The voices were deliberately designed to be hidden or blended in that way and you personally don't appreciate and/or feel it's "incorrect"? or 3. Was it actually an error of judgement by the musicians, recording or mix engineers or producer?

I'm not saying you personally are ignorant of all these facts, just pointing out the potential issues because some/many audiophile myths are based on them.

[1] Producers want their productions to sound good on everything, cheap or insanely expensive. They work hard to do that. [2] Phil Spector used to listen to his songs through a 1950s car radio, not hi-fi by today's standards. The point of all of this shouldn't be consumption. It should be the happiness music brings. Whatever works for you is fine.

1. Indeed, that's why studios typically have some really terrible reference speakers and why the mastering process exists.

2. Not just Phil Spectre, it's actually pretty common for musicians and producers to check out mixes on their car stereos. However as with the previous point, they also listen critically on TOTL studio monitors a great deal of the time.

G

 

[Redcarmoose]

If you're happy with what you've got -- as I am at the moment, with my Audio-Technica ATH-R70X -- there's no need to "upgrade."

You can, if you want, start listening to test tracks: things like "Why so Serious" by Hans Zimmer, which has a pure sub-bass stretch around 3:25 that will be near-silent on 'phones that can't get down there, or things with a lot of instruments going on at the same time in the same pitch range, like David Bowie's "Blackstar," to see how well you can hear individual elements. You can listen to things like the Band's "Music from Big Pink," which was recorded without a lot of effects or electronics and should sound like the unadorned instruments (although of course everything had to go through microphones). You can listen to how drums and cymbals sound on your favorite, how bass and drums stay separate or get blurred, whether horns and guitars sound real, whether voices are prominent or hidden or blended correctly.

Producers want their productions to sound good on everything, cheap or insanely expensive. They work hard to do that. Phil Spector used to listen to his songs through a 1950s car radio, not hi-fi by today's standards. The point of all of this shouldn't be consumption. It should be the happiness music brings. Whatever works for you is fine.

Then the course of action is to listen to music!

I love that suggestion. Just simply get to listening to music. Before the internet age, all we had were friends and suggestions. In a sense almost everything you do is a learning process. So it doesn’t matter exactly where you start. Meaning where you are is the exact place your supposed to be at...at this place in time.

I have often found people who had different ideas about musical equipment and in many ways it’s personal. It’s an individual thing......the whole listening to headphones experience. And much of it.......(the experience) is not verifiable.......though many feel 100% of the experience is quantifiable and documentable? How is that?

Science has always wanted to have the last word on so many subjects, though at the same time those subjects need scientific answers. Also obviously there has been improvements which are unmeasurable in the benefit to humans, regarding electronic reproduction and recording of music.

Still there are so many variables to personal audio. This could be part of the reason why there are so many different opinions on a single headphone or IEM. But.......beyond that we now see a multitude of reviewers changing their personal end of year lists as to what exactly is better. Fourth place went down to sixth place then got put back into fourth place again before the end of the year.

Now imagine that is a single reviewer trying to place headphones and IEMs into a list of best to worst. Then imagine when two people try and decide (a list of best to worst) headphones in a group? Then try to imagine all of Head-Fi trying to figure out what may be a better purchase for the money. That’s what takes place around here. Thousands of listeners trying to decide what is best.

There is no such thing as best. But there may be some equipment which is better for you personally?


I just simply suggest to take it easy and take it slow. Because if stuff doesn’t sound better to you then the opposite takes place. It would mean that stuff doesn’t sound bad to you either? All I can say is I have been a practicing audiophile for 40 years and I learned to hear actually better in the last 10 years. I definitely have some age related hearing loss, no one escapes that. But in the last 10 years I have found I understood sound a little better?

So what that proves to me is you can learn to hear slightly better in time. That it’s totally experience and education. Studio engineers do a process where slight changes get done to a mix and they are tested on how they perceive those changes. Even if they are very slight changes of one frequency band altered then their test is to distinguish that band in a mix. They slowly learn to hear.

 

[bigshot]

Hearing can’t be improved. You can only listen more carefully. I’ve found it’s more rewarding to listen to music carefully than it is to listen to equipment carefully.

 

[Voxata]

I'd suggest expand your collection slightly and do more testing. What full sized headphones do you have?

 

[IDrinkLava]

Not sure why you would want the cables and interconnects listed, no audible difference there.

Spoiler

It was bait for the person who preferred "living in ignorance".

 

[Redcarmoose]

I have been an avid follower of this forum, and have been reading a lot of the debates. I am a relative noob to the scientific method - so (to my shame) I do own moderately pricey cables and all.

I thought I would try and do some listening tests on my equipment. Do bear in mind that I was merely trying to do A/B tests, not double blind - way too much work for me, and likely will not change what I have. Might learn, but...

I have the following equipment (becomes relevant shortly)

1. Astell and Kern T8ie Mk2 - with custom cables (mmcx / balanced 2.5mm)
2. IE 7 (yes the old ones), which have been modded to accomodate mmcx running another custom cable (single ended 3.5mm)
3. Samsung buds pro
4. A Fiio BTR5
5. A cheapo dongle (which claims to have a realtek dac)
6. Audio source is a Samsung galaxy S21 running spotify

Apart from a hiss I hear when I use the dongle (downside of running cheap stuff I guess - poor construction), I am NOT able to hear much (if any) difference between any combination of the equipment mentioned above.

Which leads me to the questions

1. Am I sonically blind?
2. Am I right, and there is no difference really : because - you know - there potentially might not be anything at all?

I thought - perhaps wrongly - that I might at least hear some difference between the IEMs as they might have been set up (tuned?) a bit differently from each other.

But the differential is zip, nada. The sole thing is that as I raise the volume (whether balanced or single ended), everything appears nicer, clearer and dare I say fuller? And then there comes a point where my ears start protesting.

At that high-ish volume sweet spot - everything sounds roughly the same (yes even the Samsung buds)...

How - IF - can I try and dig deeper and perhaps (maybe) see if there might be any differences in the various combinations I have?

Cheers!

P.S. This is now purely out of intellectual curiosity and learning. I used to believe that more expensive equipment potentially sounded better, but my ears have let me down!

So I re-read your post. There is many questions. Truly number one is......so your trying variations of just the equipment you own and not finding any changes?

Your experience is simply limited to trying to find variation in combinations of just a few pieces of gear. I have not heard your gear but I looked it up. My recommendation to you is try more gear.

It’s not totally a question of spending more money but in a sense it is. I hope you understand to post such a question here in sound science has both positive and negative connotations.

Namely this single place (SS) acts as a place to refute all marketing. Which in a sense is both good and bad. Namely you will find Head-Fi to be a absolute pool of marketing. Imagine one site in the world which posts hundreds of products a month which are newly created and have the destination of being introduced for sale.

So (SS) is going to tell you that amps, cables all sound the same and it’s marketing placebo if we hear a difference.

What I am saying is explore. There is no risk in finding out they are right or wrong. Only personal enlightenment is in question here.

Since your methodology is simply limited to what you have now, go out and try for yourself the avenues that are placed in front of you. You only live so long and only have so much time here on earth.

So explore. Explore and don’t look back. Don’t base you expectations on any one thing or anyone’s opinion. Why? Because they are not you and they are not experiencing the sound you are experiencing.

I would start with IEMs. I’m not going to suggest any single IEM as in a way it doesn’t matter! Simply get out of your comfort zone and experience new products, simply for the chance you will hear new things.

You are most likely like many of us and will hear a difference in IEMs. But you need to up your game. You need to have fun and find out what Head-Fi has to offer.

Try new DAPs, Cables and IEMs. Try a new amp. Truly you have nothing to lose except effort and time!

 

[bigshot]

Try new DAPs, Cables and IEMs. Try a new amp. Truly you have nothing to lose except effort and time!

And with bad advice like that, you'll lose money as well.