[HBen]

Hi there! I'm brand new on Head-Fi, and I'd very much enjoy your expert insight into the lands beyond/outside of the HD 800 S. I've had them for about a year, and they instantly became my new daily drivers since I got them. I love them, but lately I've had the itch to get something different. I want something that can not necessarily outclass the 800s - I realize I'm in the land of diminishing returns here - but I do know I want something that can do bass better. Something that's a bit of a more effective all-rounder, I suppose.

Lately, I've been doing a bunch of research, and I've almost pulled the trigger on the HE 1000 V2, given that the general consensus is that it's a slightly warmer, richer Arya. In fact, the Arya was the very first alternative I considered, but I found myself saying, "Well, if I'm gonna get the Arya, why not explore the higher peaks of TOTL cans?". I also have an LCD-X and, while I love the sound - especially the bass, it's just too heavy to be worn for an extended period of time. Basically, I want a good compromise between an LCD-X and an HD800 S: the slam of the LCD-X with the stage and detail of the 800 S. I know that those things can cancel each other out, but that's why I'm good to settle for something that can do a bit of both. Hence, a good all-rounder.

I was about to pull the trigger on the HE1000 V2s when I also found an Empyrean at a very good price used. I know these catch flak for their supposed muddiness, but I've also seen people be awed by the stage and general wow factor of these. Both the Hifiman and Meze are apparently very comfortable as well. I listen to almost all genres of music, and I love watching movies and I game quite a bit. Which of these two are "it" for me? Or is there something else that you would recommend as well? Perhaps a ZMF Verite or something like that?

Edit: I was also looking at the OG Clears, given there great price, and their apparent bass-handling ability. I am put off by their apparent clipping issues, though. Anything up to around the $2,000 range is what I'm in for, specifically.

- Among those mentioned the HE1000V2 or Arya or any of those Hifiman variants is probably closest to what you are looking for
- Empyrean is not playing in the same league as the HD800, HE1000V2 or Arya if you ask me. It's a fun headphone to listen to for sure and absolutely beautifully made. Soundstage is average at best. I'd recommend it to everyone ... if it was sold for below 1000$.
- ZMF Verité is a great headphone but also on the heavier side and does not have the soundstage you are looking for. The OC Clear has even less soundstage, smaller than any of the headphones mentioned.

 

[Monsterzero]

Then again, why are they always up for sale?

As was mentioned before, the Caldera is coming out late next month. Also, ZMF rotates the limited edition wood types and many owners sell their stock wood for the ltd. wood of their preference.

Man, that makes perfect sense now. I'm assuming the Caldera is going to be in the $4k+ range like other Summit-Fi cans (LCD-5, Utopia, etc.)? I might need to start looking into ZMF some more then.

$3500.00. I have a pair of Caldera here with me now. It's an excellent sounding headphone. Very different than any other planar i've heard previously.

ZMF Verité is a great headphone but also on the heavier side and does not have the soundstage you are looking for.

The VO in my system has a pretty substantial stage. Perhaps not quite as expansive as the HD800, but the VO has bass too...

 

[djentlemetal]

As was mentioned before, the Caldera is coming out late next month. Also, ZMF rotates the limited edition wood types and many owners sell their stock wood for the ltd. wood of their preference.

$3500.00. I have a pair of Caldera here with me now. It's an excellent sounding headphone. Very different than any other planar i've heard previously.

The VO in my system has a pretty substantial stage. Perhaps not quite as expansive as the HD800, but the VO has bass too...

You know what's funny? I don't hear the "massive" soundstage with my 800s unless I hook them up to my Darkvoice. They're so alive and full with a tube amp it's pretty insane. Maybe I'm just used to them on my Jotunheim/BF2 that I just don't hear what many people talk about with the soundstage. They're obviously larger sounding than all of my other headphones (e.g. 650s, 58Xs, LCD-X) but not by some insane margin. With the tube amp, I'm instantly transported to the stage (more like right in front of the stage, actually) of whatever I'm listening to live-music wise.

I'm going to definitely need to dip my toes into ZMF Land because as much as I see people sometimes complain about their weight, no one actually says anything bad about them as a whole. They're easily the most beautiful cans (heh) on the market (Empys are also up there), and I can go on every forum and see many people say, "They're so good; you gotta try them!" when they're brought up.

Needless to say, and I know some of you recommended NOT to do this, but I found a great price for some well-kept, used Empyreans and pulled the trigger. Hell, if they're not to my liking, and if they don't serve as a great compliment to my 800s, then I'll just sell them and get something else. I'm not opposed to having an HE1K V2 and a ZMF in my collection at the same time. I'd love to try a Utopia at some point as well. They seem to be fairly divisive, but that tells me there's something there to consider.

 

[djentlemetal]

- Among those mentioned the HE1000V2 or Arya or any of those Hifiman variants is probably closest to what you are looking for
- Empyrean is not playing in the same league as the HD800, HE1000V2 or Arya if you ask me. It's a fun headphone to listen to for sure and absolutely beautifully made. Soundstage is average at best. I'd recommend it to everyone ... if it was sold for below 1000$.
- ZMF Verité is a great headphone but also on the heavier side and does not have the soundstage you are looking for. The OC Clear has even less soundstage, smaller than any of the headphones mentioned.

You're probably going to roll your eyes and say, "What, why?!", but I just pulled the trigger on some used Empyreans. Curiosity absolutely consumed me when it came to the divisiveness of these headphones. I have to see what people are raving about as well as going 'meh' about. If they don't stick, they don't stick and I'll go the Hifiman route. Actually, I'm probably going to get the HE1000 V2 route anyway down the line. I'd love to be able to hear what Hifiman does above $1k, since my only experience with them are the Sundaras (gathering dust on my headphone rack).

 

[Monsterzero]

You know what's funny? I don't hear the "massive" soundstage with my 800s unless I hook them up to my Darkvoice. They're so alive and full with a tube amp it's pretty insane. Maybe I'm just used to them on my Jotunheim/BF2 that I just don't hear what many people talk about with the soundstage.

Not funny at all. High impedance headphones like the HD800 and ZMFs ( except for the Caldera) sound their best IMO out of a great tube amp. In my experience, Ive yet to hear a SS amp that can do what an OTL amp can do for soundstage.

 

[bagwell359]

I'll see what everyone says when after it comes out. That's quite a price.

Ummm... Forget what they say? What do you like?

 

[bagwell359]

Not funny at all. High impedance headphones like the HD800 and ZMFs ( except for the Caldera) sound their best IMO out of a great tube amp. In my experience, Ive yet to hear a SS amp that can do what an OTL amp can do for soundstage.

A used stock Bottlehead Crack does things for the HD-600 and 800 and 800 S which my Rag 1, Violectric v281, and Bryston BHA-1 can't. Bet dimes to doughnuts that they were designed mostly/all on tubes - probably OTL.

 

[djentlemetal]

Not funny at all. High impedance headphones like the HD800 and ZMFs ( except for the Caldera) sound their best IMO out of a great tube amp. In my experience, Ive yet to hear a SS amp that can do what an OTL amp can do for soundstage.

Okay, so I'm definitely not hearing things or experiencing any type of "placebo" (the boys on r/headphones love claiming anything besides what a FR graph says is placebo). I also read a post somewhere where someone said, "You may not like what you hear if you use the 800s with a tube amp". After what I've experienced, and with a relatively affordable tube amp, I'm in the opposite camp. The 800s sound like an entirely different headphone with that amp. I might just pull the trigger on a Fireflies in the next few months, given their somewhat smaller, desk-oriented footprint.

 

[Monsterzero]

Okay, so I'm definitely not hearing things or experiencing any type of "placebo" (the boys on r/headphones love claiming anything besides what a FR graph says is placebo). I also read a post somewhere where someone said, "You may not like what you hear if you use the 800s with a tube amp". After what I've experienced, and with a relatively affordable tube amp, I'm in the opposite camp. The 800s sound like an entirely different headphone with that amp. I might just pull the trigger on a Fireflies in the next few months, given their somewhat smaller, desk-oriented footprint.

You might appreciate a thread I just started.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-un-official-amp-thread-for-zmf-headphones.965309/

Notice a trend?!?

 

[djentlemetal]

A used stock Bottlehead Crack does things for the HD-600 and 800 and 800 S which my Rag 1, Violectric v281, and Bryston BHA-1 can't. Bet dimes to doughnuts that they were designed mostly/all on tubes - probably OTL.

Yes, exactly. Whenever I put the Darkvoice back on its shelf and go back to the Jot, I'm like, "Oh. Bleh". The Jot does sound great with the 800s, but back-to-back listening shows the glaring differences. I'd keep the Darkvoice right next to my Jot/BF2 at all times, but the footprint/height is too much for my current desk setup.

 

[djentlemetal]

You might appreciate a thread I just started.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-un-official-amp-thread-for-zmf-headphones.965309/

Notice a trend?!?

Damnit, I just spent $2k on Empyreans, and now I'm going to go down the tube amp rabbit hole. Everything is so beautiful. I think ZMFs are easily the best looking headphones in existence. I thought they were a bit gaudy at first, but I play and own very expensive guitars and very much understand and appreciate good-looking wood.

Edit: Oh, and speaking of guitars, the best sounding amps ever are tube amps. This technology that has existed for many decades has not come very close to being outdone by anything solid state. There are SS amps that do sound excellent, but there's nothing like the natural, living sound of a tube guitar amp. When it comes to bass guitar, that's a different animal and those amps are SS, though. Anyway, it's not at all surprising that headphone/speaker tube amps do the same thing as guitar tube amps.

 

[DenverW]

Okay, so I'm definitely not hearing things or experiencing any type of "placebo" (the boys on r/headphones love claiming anything besides what a FR graph says is placebo). I also read a post somewhere where someone said, "You may not like what you hear if you use the 800s with a tube amp". After what I've experienced, and with a relatively affordable tube amp, I'm in the opposite camp. The 800s sound like an entirely different headphone with that amp. I might just pull the trigger on a Fireflies in the next few months, given their somewhat smaller, desk-oriented footprint.

What? Who is saying the 800 isn’t good on tubes? Use the ignore function on them immediately because they clearly are speaking without hearing.

 

[djentlemetal]

What? Who is saying the 800 isn’t good on tubes? Use the ignore function on them immediately because they clearly are speaking without hearing.

Yeah, I found that comment a bit odd. Unless you're a machine who wants nothing but details, then all the tubes do is warm it up a bit and expaaaand it outward. Alive. That's what I felt.

 

[esmse]

i've replaced my hd800s with a he1000 v2.
the hekv2 is more balanced, natural sounding with some decent weight in the bass. Its not as fast or dynamic as the HD800s, bass is rich and full but I miss some slam on fast electronic music. Soundstage doesn't wow like the HD800s does but its more natural with decent separation.
all in all I find the hekv2 more musical and suited across all genres while the HD800s was more variable.

 

[bagwell359]

Recording techniques and delivery to our ears is not perfect.

Trying to reproduce what's coming out of a transducer seems in one way to be the only goal.

But, if you listen to the BSO live in its Hall and draw in the sounds of the strings and the harmonics fading away - then listen to the same piece on a given system in an average room is to know frustration.

I was a tube head for about 10 years but the discontinuity of glorious living sound into the mallet on a rotten tomato bass, and the smudging of some details ended that.

The closest I came to amps that would produce a top to bottom sound consonant with reality are the amps over the past 40 years from Mr. Pass (tuned by ear and having measurable HD). Toss in custom rooms and killer speakers and moving coil cartridges/multi-bit DAC's/15 ips tape is the closest I've come - but, it's not perfect, but a closer approximation vs other attempts I've experienced.

For headphones, tubes are more practical than for 83 db speakers in very large rooms, since SET amps and low watt designs usually get past the bass discontinuity. Still it was 20 years after I walked away from tubes when I heard a stock BHC driving my 600's. I got two more very fine SS amps in too, and all 3 SS amps in - thumbs down on the sound with the 600 (thumbs up for planars). Not even a good battle. The 600's sound accurate but not really alive on SS. No perfection on either BHC I've used, but more bass under 60 Hz, much better sounstage, and music with harmonics and warmth. Too much? Maybe, but the terms ascetic and ascorbic no longer fit. Recently got a 800 loaner (nee S, no mods). Again not only more pleasing but more musical than my Rag 1 which drives planars wonderfully.

Objectivity/Engineering are neccessary. But the listeners who laughed at the pronouncements of the objectives of perfect equipment in the 1970's spawned a 50+ year effort to arrive at more realistic sound (and fraud and exageration on the dark side).

I'd like to say let your ears decide. But that's for people with experience of live unamplified music, or if your electrified, live and not just through playback equipment. Many pitfalls await. Sales people, writers, bloggers, people like me - many with agendas, all with opinions. Objectives cut most of that stuff away, but the whole of them fight over every point to keep their ism in ascendancy (to them). In some cases quite right, in others the overreach of Arny K., Nouisane, Aczel, etc. underlines how being doctrianire cuts off any and all other methods - but since recording and playback ARE not perfect their approach always aims at a target that can be bettered by an informed user using experience (call it heuristic) methods to arrive closer to the target of convincing musical playback - but not perfect, perhaps never to be perfect.