DefQon
Headphoneus Supremus
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Do those measurements indicate how K812 would perform on every type of music ?
People with the knowledge to interpret FR's and CSD plots can. But not 100%.
Do those measurements indicate how K812 would perform on every type of music ?
People with the knowledge to interpret FR's and CSD plots can. But not 100%.
Why do you think it's just short of 100%?
Several variables are 'at play', the graphs and plots can give indications but not proofs. Beyerdynamic T1 has somewhat worse technical measurements than Sennheiser HD800 yet it sounds better on most types of music than HD800.
Beyerdynamic T1 has somewhat worse technical measurements than Sennheiser HD800 yet it sounds better on most types of music than HD800.
Sennheiser HD800 are well known to have super-tizzy treble [witness the legion of those who complain and testify to this fact] but this did not prevent HD800 to be put on a pedestal and worshiped.
My native language is not english - can you tell me in other words, what you with tizzy treble or super-tizzy treble mean. The translation to german http://www.dict.cc/?s=tizzy did not really describes what you mean.
"tizzy:A "zz" or "ff" coloration of the sound of cymbals and vocal sibilants, caused by a rising frequency response above 10kHz. Similar to "wiry," but at a higher frequency."
"Tizzy describes too much upper treble (6kHz-10kHz), characterized as a whitening of the treble. Tizzy cymbals have an emphasis on the upper harmonics, the sizzle and air that rides over the main cymbal sound. Tizziness gives cymbals more of an ssssss than asssshhhh sound."
Now I understand what some mean ... tsssss or tszszszs (sharpen s)
With some records of my CD/SACDs I heard this in short passages - but if I counter-check this passages with my D7000, K501, K712 this tizzy was present too, but more reserved. My conclusion, this tizzy are on the CD/SACDs present, the K812 is more analytic as my other headphones.
At some other CDs with similar music passages, I cant hear this.
"tizzy:A "zz" or "ff" coloration of the sound of cymbals and vocal sibilants, caused by a rising frequency response above 10kHz. Similar to "wiry," but at a higher frequency."
"Tizzy describes too much upper treble (6kHz-10kHz), characterized as a whitening of the treble. Tizzy cymbals have an emphasis on the upper harmonics, the sizzle and air that rides over the main cymbal sound. Tizziness gives cymbals more of an ssssss than asssshhhh sound."
Originally Posted by FritzS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Now I understand what some mean ... tsssss or tszszszs (sharpen s)
With some records of my CD/SACDs I heard this in short passages - but if I counter-check this passages with my D7000, K501, K712 this tizzy was present too, but more reserved. My conclusion, this tizzy are on the CD/SACDs present, the K812 is more analytic as my other headphones.
At some other CDs with similar music passages, I cant hear this.
The frequencies of the musical tones or of the speech sounds have acoustic energies. The sounds of the consonants that are prone to 'sibilance', like s, z, ch, sh, zh, ts [German z ] have their main energies [loudness] at the frequencies above 6000 Hz and up to 10000 Hz. If particular headphones have either an uncontrolled treble peak or peaks, or an overemphasized treble part of the frequency spectrum, from about 6000 Hz to 10000 Hz, then the naturally sharp acoustic edges of the consonants mentioned above get boosted or magnified in volume. This increase in volume of the sibilant portions of the sounds is relative to and out of proportion to the non-sibilant portions of the same sounds in lower frequencies. The sounds / consonants thus become 'sibilant' when presented by headphones that have treble problems.
[A small digression follows] - However, the frequency spectrum graphs do not always tell the whole story when it comes to the problem of sibilance. Here are interesting examples :
Sennheiser HD800 - http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800.pdf
Beyerdynamic T1 - http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1SN3964.pdf [the serial number above about 3950 when the Beyerdynamic re-tuned the driver of T1]
According to the graphs the treble of T1 at 9000 Hz is louder by about 10 dB compared to the 9000 Hz part of HD800's treble. 10 dB difference is a lot, a lot, yet HD800 have, relative to the treble of T1, an over the top and sibilant treble. Exactly the opposite of what one, who is scientifically minded, would expect. (Other head-fi members commented on this, many find the treble part of the HD800 sound to be unpleasant / harsh.) Either there is, or there are, some aspect or aspects of sound that has not been, [or cannot be?] measured yet, to this day, or the measurements are wrong.
Edit / correction - it should be '10 dB difference' and not '10 Hz difference'.
The frequencies of the musical tones or of the speech sounds have acoustic energies. The sounds of the consonants that are prone to 'sibilance', like s, z, ch, sh, zh, ts [German z ] have their main energies [loudness] at the frequencies above 6000 Hz and up to 10000 Hz. If particular headphones have either an uncontrolled treble peak or peaks, or an overemphasized treble part of the frequency spectrum, from about 6000 Hz to 10000 Hz, then the naturally sharp acoustic edges of the consonants mentioned above get boosted or magnified in volume. This increase in volume of the sibilant portions of the sounds is relative to and out of proportion to the non-sibilant portions of the same sounds in lower frequencies. The sounds / consonants thus become 'sibilant' when presented by headphones that have treble problems.
[A small digression follows] - However, the frequency spectrum graphs [COLOR=800080]do not always[/COLOR] tell the whole story when it comes to the problem of sibilance. Here are interesting examples :
Sennheiser HD800 - http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800.pdf
Beyerdynamic T1 - http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1SN3964.pdf [the serial number above about 3950 when the Beyerdynamic re-tuned the driver of T1]
According to the graphs the treble of T1 at 9000 Hz is louder by about 10 dB compared to the 9000 Hz part of HD800's treble. 10 Hz difference is a lot, a lot, yet HD800 have, relative to the treble of T1, an over the top and sibilant treble. Exactly the opposite of what one, who is scientifically minded, would expect. (Other head-fi members commented on this, many find the treble part of the HD800 sound to be unpleasant.) Either there is, or there are, some aspect or aspects of sound that has not been, [or cannot be?] measured yet, to this day, or the measurements are wrong.
The frequencies of the musical tones or of the speech sounds have acoustic energies. The sounds of the consonants that are prone to 'sibilance', like s, z, ch, sh, zh, ts [German z ] have their main energies [loudness] at the frequencies above 6000 Hz and up to 10000 Hz. If particular headphones have either an uncontrolled treble peak or peaks, or an overemphasized treble part of the frequency spectrum, from about 6000 Hz to 10000 Hz, then the naturally sharp acoustic edges of the consonants mentioned above get boosted or magnified in volume. This increase in volume of the sibilant portions of the sounds is relative to and out of proportion to the non-sibilant portions of the same sounds in lower frequencies. The sounds / consonants thus become 'sibilant' when presented by headphones that have treble problems.
[A small digression follows] - However, the frequency spectrum graphs do not always tell the whole story when it comes to the problem of sibilance. Here are interesting examples :
Sennheiser HD800 - http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800.pdf
Beyerdynamic T1 - http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1SN3964.pdf [the serial number above about 3950 when the Beyerdynamic re-tuned the driver of T1]
According to the graphs the treble of T1 at 9000 Hz is louder by about 10 dB compared to the 9000 Hz part of HD800's treble. 10 Hz difference is a lot, a lot, yet HD800 have, relative to the treble of T1, an over the top and sibilant treble. Exactly the opposite of what one, who is scientifically minded, would expect. (Other head-fi members commented on this, many find the treble part of the HD800 sound to be unpleasant / harsh.) Either there is, or there are, some aspect or aspects of sound that has not been, [or cannot be?] measured yet, to this day, or the measurements are wrong.
In my case I presume the 'sibilance' is a part of the recording - I know some sound engineers use a 'refresher' (the exactly name I dont know yet) to make an stuffy, lifeless recording fascinating. We need live recordings with very good microphones, very good eqipment and without manipulations!
In my case I presume the 'sibilance' is a part of the recording - I know some sound engineers use a 'refresher' (the exactly name I dont know yet) to make an stuffy, lifeless recording fascinating. We need live recordings with very good microphones, very good eqipment and without manipulations!