[Bompah]

You've got to go with what works for you. I'll keep both the APP and APM since they serve slightly different purposes for me, although, commuting which is the main purpose for the APM, is minimal at the moment. The APP are my "go anywhere, have just in case" headphones, they are always in the coin-pocket of my jeans so are always availabel if I need them. I used to wear the APP for my morning walks as well, but now that it is fairly cold it is nice to wear over-ears as ear-muffs with sound.

But this is why I'm getting rid of the H95, the sound isn't to my preference as much as the APM, and the APM is far more convenient being an Apple product. Just like you, I don't see a point in keeping extra Bluetooth ANC headphones (although I have one over-ear and one in-ear) because let's be honest, you only need one pair, and none of them are good enought to keep around for a "different flavour of sound". I'd rather spend that money (and storage space) on modded HD600s or some other wired and actually interesting headphones.

Enjoy you APPs, they are an fantastic set of on the go headphones, with suprisingly enjoyable sound.

PS. If you metal has comprehendable male vocals, it isn't heavy enough!

Returning the APM and why the $550 price still makes sense to me
So I decided, for now, to return my APM. As much as they soundly beat my AirPods Pros in many genres, the APM was giving me issues with some of my favorite music - particularly hard rock and metal that have prominent male vocals. They still performed very strong for my taste otherwise though. In live performances of jazz, of female vocalists and acoustics, of classical, and hard/rock metal with female vocals, the APM was superb for me. But...I need my wireless headphone to answer all my questions at least decently enough for my taste. I need to feel all my music, and instead of feeling my male vocal rock/metal, I was straining to hear what I wanted there.

If I was at home with my DAC/AMP, I could try to justify the headphones better as a complement to my HD 800's - filling in the missing range of sub bass and give me another flavor to try when it's convenient to switch headphones.

However...when it comes to wireless portables, I don't want to have multiple options to choose from when exiting the house. I find myself wanting to be picky for the use case of traveling. And, because the APP are already decent across all genres (though not really excelling where the APM do in a few), I decided to return the APM for now. Just for now.

Throughout all the listening and comparing I've done and shared on the forums here, I still support them in every way that I've expressed. I still think they are well worth $550. It's the same for most every headphone. Many in this community have multiple headphones, each worth the same price or more, so they can satisfy different sonic desires. I'm simply too picky to let myself have multiple portable headphones at this time, if any one of those extra portable options fails to connect me to some of my music.

In any case, it's sad indeed because I will actually miss what the APM do very well. Maybe if Apple pushes a tuning update or tuning options for the user, I can find myself having them again. Or maybe I'll buy them again after missing them enough on my next travel! Or...maybe the APP 2 coming soon will have sound quality changes that I will like, and with the convenient in-ear form factor.

 

[tkddans]

PS. If you metal has comprehendable male vocals, it isn't heavy enough!

Hah!

 

[SparkOnShore]

Returning the APM and why the $550 price still makes sense to me
So I decided, for now, to return my APM. As much as they soundly beat my AirPods Pros in many genres, the APM was giving me issues with some of my favorite music - particularly hard rock and metal that have prominent male vocals. They still performed very strong for my taste otherwise though. In live performances of jazz, of female vocalists and acoustics, of classical, and hard/rock metal with female vocals, the APM was superb for me. But...I need my wireless headphone to answer all my questions at least decently enough for my taste. I need to feel all my music, and instead of feeling my male vocal rock/metal, I was straining to hear what I wanted there.

If I was at home with my DAC/AMP, I could try to justify the headphones better as a complement to my HD 800's - filling in the missing range of sub bass and give me another flavor to try when it's convenient to switch headphones.

However...when it comes to wireless portables, I don't want to have multiple options to choose from when exiting the house. I find myself wanting to be picky for the use case of traveling. And, because the APP are already decent across all genres (though not really excelling where the APM do in a few), I decided to return the APM for now. Just for now.

Throughout all the listening and comparing I've done and shared on the forums here, I still support them in every way that I've expressed. I still think they are well worth $550. It's the same for most every headphone. Many in this community have multiple headphones, each worth the same price or more, so they can satisfy different sonic desires. I'm simply too picky to let myself have multiple portable headphones at this time, if any one of those extra portable options fails to connect me to some of my music.

In any case, it's sad indeed because I will actually miss what the APM do very well. Maybe if Apple pushes a tuning update or tuning options for the user, I can find myself having them again. Or maybe I'll buy them again after missing them enough on my next travel! Or...maybe the APP 2 coming soon will have sound quality changes that I will like, and with the convenient in-ear form factor.

I really feel the need to congratulate you for your courage to criticize and be as objective as possible with your choices. I haven’t heard the APM but i own and love the APP. What I need to add is that we should never forget the form factor on which APP succeed having this sound. Just 2 tiny earbuds, practically invisible, with zero weight, with zero connection between each other! No cables, no headbands, no weight, no fuss and water resistant!! And being able to sound close to bulkier, heavier over ears! That is the miracle of technology to me. I can not get rid of the thought that the real technological advancement of our times is this very shrinkage of all items, for which in part we need to thank the great Jony Ive. I cannot consider as tech progress the years old design of 2 huge plaques covering your head and half of your face! The same goes for a tower computer for example. Getting this quality of audio by 2 tiny drivers is the definition of the tech miracle. Being light, portable, ready to move and have all your tech with no bulk, that’s the best idea in the most minimal sense.

 

[yticolev]

real technological advancement of our times is this very shrinkage of all items, for which in part we need to thank the great Jony Ive.

This is way off topic as Jony Ive was not involved in the development of any Airpods. He is a designer, nothing to do with any tech advancements. He has a particular aesthetic, which unfortunately meant considerable loss in user friendliness when he somehow became a user interface designer. Glad he is gone.

 

[jhoelter]

This is way off topic as Jony Ive was not involved in the development of any Airpods. He is a designer, nothing to do with any tech advancements. He has a particular aesthetic, which unfortunately meant considerable loss in user friendliness when he somehow became a user interface designer. Glad he is gone.

Don’t feed the trolls, folks. This thread already has enough tangents...though many have been good and informative.

 

[jude]

Thanks a lot Jude. I've tried to find other measurements done in Head-fi's lab on the same setup for other over-ears but I couldn't find them, only the ones you made for IEMs in the original thread about B&K's latest HATS. Any link I should follow where I could get my hands on a few of them ?

Let's start with two popular, very well known Sennheiser models, the Sennheiser HD650 and the Sennheiser HD800S. First, let's look at those individually as measured on the Brüel & Kjær 5128:

---

Fig.1 (above): Sennheiser HD650 frequency response, average of four seatings.

---

Fig.2 (above): Sennheiser HD800S frequency response, average of four seatings.

---

NOTE: For both the Sennheiser HD650 and Sennheiser HD800S measurements above, neither has been used for personal listening -- they've only been worn by measurement fixtures. As a result, the earpads on both are like new.

---

Comparing such very different headphones can be tricky, so I'm showing at least two normalization points for each of these Sennheiser headphones in comparison to the Apple AirPods Max. Following are comparisons of the Apple AirPods Max's frequency response to the Sennheiser HD650 and HD800S:

---

Fig.3 (above): Apple AirPods Max and Sennheiser HD650 frequency responses compared, normalized at 500 Hz, 1/12 octave smoothing.

Fig.4 (above): Apple AirPods Max and Sennheiser HD650 frequency responses compared, normalized at 1 kHz, 1/12 octave smoothing.

Fig.5 (above): Apple AirPods Max and Sennheiser HD650 frequency responses compared, normalized at 2 kHz, 1/12 octave smoothing.

---

Fig.6 (above): Apple AirPods Max and Sennheiser HD800S frequency responses compared, normalized at 500 Hz, 1/12 octave smoothing.

Fig.7 (above): Apple AirPods Max and Sennheiser HD800S frequency responses compared, normalized at 1 kHz, 1/12 octave smoothing.

---

NOTE: I almost chose not to include the comparison in Fig.4 because the HD650 notch at 1 kHz pushes its curve down in the comparison. Without the notch at 1 kHz, it would look rather like the overlay in Fig.3. I included Fig.4 just to help avoid confusion as to its absence. Also, while I don't usually normalize at 2 kHz, I did that for Fig.5, just in case you were curious about a comparison that lines up the treble response more.

---

The measurements in this post were made using:

• Brüel & Kjær High-frequency Head and Torso Simulator (HATS) Type 5128
• Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer (with Bluetooth Duo Module)
• Audio Precision APx1701 Transducer Test Interface
• Herzan custom-designed acoustic & vibration isolation enclosurez

---

 

[SparkOnShore]

This is way off topic as Jony Ive was not involved in the development of any Airpods. He is a designer, nothing to do with any tech advancements. He has a particular aesthetic, which unfortunately meant considerable loss in user friendliness when he somehow became a user interface designer. Glad he is gone.

This is your own opinion which hopefully has nothing to do with Apple’s cultural and technological decisions. Whatever Apple is today it is partly due to him and whatever Apple product you buy has his ideal mark stamped on it. And to give you more info, the original EarPods is his design. He left but Apple walks and will walk always on this path, either you like it or not.

 

[tinyman392]

Let's start with two popular, very well known Sennheiser models, the Sennheiser HD650 and the Sennheiser HD800S. First, let's look at those individually as measured on the Brüel & Kjær 5128:

---

Fig.1 (above): Sennheiser HD650 frequency response, average of four seatings.

---

Fig.2 (above): Sennheiser HD800S frequency response, average of four seatings.

---

NOTE: For both the Sennheiser HD650 and Sennheiser HD800S measurements above, neither has been used for personal listening -- they've only been worn by measurement fixtures. As a result, the earpads on both are like new.

---

Comparing such very different headphones can be tricky, so I'm showing at least two normalization points for each of these Sennheiser headphones in comparison to the Apple AirPods Max. Following are comparisons of the Apple AirPods Max's frequency response to the Sennheiser HD650 and HD800S:

---

Fig.3 (above): Apple AirPods Max and Sennheiser HD650 frequency responses compared, normalized at 500 Hz, 1/12 octave smoothing.


Fig.4 (above): Apple AirPods Max and Sennheiser HD650 frequency responses compared, normalized at 1 kHz, 1/12 octave smoothing.


Fig.5 (above): Apple AirPods Max and Sennheiser HD650 frequency responses compared, normalized at 2 kHz, 1/12 octave smoothing.

---

Fig.6 (above): Apple AirPods Max and Sennheiser HD800S frequency responses compared, normalized at 500 Hz, 1/12 octave smoothing.


Fig.7 (above): Apple AirPods Max and Sennheiser HD800S frequency responses compared, normalized at 1 kHz, 1/12 octave smoothing.

---

NOTE: I almost chose not to include the comparison in Fig.4 because the HD650 notch at 1 kHz pushes its curve down in the comparison. Without the notch at 1 kHz, it would look rather like the overlay in Fig.3. I included Fig.4 just to help avoid confusion as to its absence. Also, while I don't usually normalize at 2 kHz, I did that for Fig.5, just in case you were curious about a comparison that lines up the treble response more.

---

The measurements in this post were made using:

• Brüel & Kjær High-frequency Head and Torso Simulator (HATS) Type 5128
• Audio Precision APx555 Audio Analyzer (with Bluetooth Duo Module)
• Audio Precision APx1701 Transducer Test Interface
• Herzan custom-designed acoustic & vibration isolation enclosurez

---

The treble similarity to the 800S is pretty uncanny and quite interesting.

 

[tinyman392]

This is way off topic as Jony Ive was not involved in the development of any Airpods. He is a designer, nothing to do with any tech advancements. He has a particular aesthetic, which unfortunately meant considerable loss in user friendliness when he somehow became a user interface designer. Glad he is gone.

Jonny Ive is still influencing Apple products they're one of his clients for his consulting company. I wouldn't quite say he's gone.

 

[jude]

The treble similarity to the 800S is pretty uncanny and quite interesting.

Yeah, if we extract select chunks of the frequency responses out to isolate them and compare 'em that way, it might seem that way. However (as I'm sure you well know, having been around headphones and Head-Fi for as long as you have), these two headphones' sound signatures would never be mistaken for one another.

The only way to compare headphone frequency responses is (in my opinion) in their entireties.

You're right, though, that comparing select bits and pieces of these things is still an interesting (and unavoidable) thing to do.

Next week I'll start posting comparisons to headphones that are more in line with the segment of headphonedom that the AirPods Max occupies (by the likes of Bose, Sony, Shure, Bowers & Wilkins).

 

[yticolev]

And to give you more info, the original EarPods is his design.

Externals only.

 

[erich6]

Not sure why they would...it's not like he's trying to leave Scientology or something. Everyone makes their choices based on their needs and wants. Who are we to judge that?

Well, I don't have a problem with it and I'm certainly not judging either; but there were plenty of people that got bent out of shape because he compared the APMs to the HD 800 and I thought they would scorn him for now preferring the APPs. Nothing of the sort so all good!

 

[Heyyoudvd]

This is way off topic as Jony Ive was not involved in the development of any Airpods. He is a designer, nothing to do with any tech advancements. He has a particular aesthetic, which unfortunately meant considerable loss in user friendliness when he somehow became a user interface designer. Glad he is gone.

This is a big criticism I have of the tech world. I come from both the tech enthusiast world (ie. the audiophile community, PC building, etc...) as well as the design world (ie. Apple products) and I find so often that these two worlds simply don’t understand each other.

For example, your comment makes it seem as though Jony Ive’s contribution is merely to slap a coat of paint on things and make them look pretty. That’s not what design is. The outward aesthetics are only one tiny facet of what design encompasses.

Jony Ive designed the EarPods and then the resulting AirPods, and his contribution wasn’t merely some cosmetic thing. They’re not a museum piece. It’s all about functionality. The AirPods were the first in-ear headphones to ever really take off. Were they the best sounding? Nope. Were they the first true wireless? No again. And they weren’t the cheapest either. And yet they gained enormous traction in a way that no others ever did. Why? Some people who don’t understand design and don’t understand Apple think it’s just some aesthetic thing. “They look nice, therefore pop culture likes them, therefore people buy them.” That’s the logic many people use and it’s completely wrong. It’s not about the aesthetics. I mean, the original AirPods don’t even have good aesthetics, with that goofy looking stem. And yet they gained extreme popularity. Why? It’s because of their usability.

The case is tiny and smooth, meaning it‘s easy to slip in and out of pockets. The lid pops open and closed with a very satisfying magnetic feel. The AirPods themselves pop in and out very easily, also with a nice magnetic feel. The stems are easy to grab when putting them in and out of your ears. The pairing process with your phone is dead simple. They automatically pause if you pull one out of your ear and unpause when you put it back in. They seamlessly switch between mono and stereo depending on whether you’re using one or both. The entire case is small, light, and durable. The battery life is very good and nothing else compared at the time. The way they were so light, small, and flat meant you could carry the case in your pocket at all times, which resulted in AirPods becoming a permanent fixture in many people’s pockets, like their wallet and keys, meaning you had headphones that were always available to you. That alone is a monumental accomplishment that no other headphone had ever achieved.

That’s what Jony Ive designed.

It’s not about the looks. It’s about how the thing functions. Of course Apple couldn’t do any of that without the world class silicon team, the audio engineers, the battery team, the antenna engineers and so on, but it’s the designers that grab all those technologies and arrange them in a way so as to create a product for human beings. That‘s what design is. It’s about usability, not a coat of paint.

Now, I agree with you regarding some of Jony Ive’s interface decisions. I’ve had more than a few criticisms of some of the UI decisions since iOS 7, and I think Jony Ive wasn’t nearly as good a designer when it came to pixels on a screen as when it came to a physical object in your hands, but that’s a whole separate discussion.


My broader point here is that just like how the average person walking around with a pair of Skullcandys doesn’t understand the audiophile world and what makes it special, much of the audiophile world doesn’t understand design and what makes it so important, and so they brush it off as just some pretty aesthetic or Apple cult or fashion statement. But that’s missing the point entirely and it’s missing what made Apple so successful and why Jony Ive is so highly respected.

This is why I care about both sides of the coin. I love reading all about and listening to great headphones. But I also love Apple and what they’ve been able to accomplish. In the end, both the technical world and the design world matter. They’re the yin and the yang in the world of technology.

 

[descloud]

The treble similarity to the 800S is pretty uncanny and quite interesting.

Maybe my eyes are deceiving me, but in what way are the treble of the APM uncannily similar to the HD800S based on Jude's graphs? Their peaks and dips are in different places, starting at the 3.5kHz region. Maybe I'm not seeing something you're seeing?

 

[MayaTlab]

NOTE: I almost chose not to include the comparison in Fig.4 because the HD650 notch at 1 kHz pushes its curve down in the comparison. Without the notch at 1 kHz, it would look rather like the overlay in Fig.3. I included Fig.4 just to help avoid confusion as to its absence. Also, while I don't usually normalize at 2 kHz, I did that for Fig.5, just in case you were curious about a comparison that lines up the treble response more.

Thanks for the work, Jude. I really welcome another set of measurements done with another methodology / test fixture than the ones we commonly see.
It's always a little difficult to know which frequency would be quite the most representative for matching FR curves and how that intersect with how loud we'd set the HP levels when subjectively trying to "match" them.
I don't know if there are studies revolving around these concerns, but it seems to me that, as far as I'm concerned, more often than not it's the 3000hz peak and / or other high Q peaks above that determine how "loud" I'll subjectively set the headphones when trying to match them, and that conversely I seem to adapt fairly well to differences in the lower regions.

Next week I'll start posting comparisons to headphones that are more in line with the segment of headphonedom that the AirPods Max occupies (by the likes of Bose, Sony, Shure, Bowers & Wilkins).

I've spent quite a bit of time and money in 2020 trying a lot of the ANC BT usual suspects and some of them sounded to me in a way that some measurements didn't quite represent well, so while it's entirely possible that it's just how they interacted with my anatomy that caused these divergences I'm still quite curious how they'll measure on a 5128.