[jhoelter]

From various reviews I’ve seen, the latency via Bluetooth is about 140ms, but then when you plug it in via the Lightning to 3.5mm cable, the latency drops to around 10-20ms

I have heard the same from reviewers, and that the 10-20ms is acceptable for audio/video editing

I’ve also heard the cable feels super cheap (at $35 too!) and is quite short for desktop use.

 

[tombrisbane]

I’ve also heard the cable feels super cheap (at $35 too!) and is quite short for desktop use.

Sure does, it’s extremely thin and only 1.2m.

 

[KeithPhantom]

You could do some EQ under Accessibility>Audio/Visual>Headphone accommodations. It even gives you the option to create custom EQ based on your preference or you could use Mimi hear test app to create an EQ based on your hearing. See if this makes it any better for you.

That, that was the final step to actually fix their sound, at least for me. A custom audiogram seems to create something completely custom and filled the holes regular custom settings left. Now, the sound’s better than any wireless headphones I’ve tried. It is pretty much a personalized custom EQ, that for me it happens to be something that resembles the HD 600 a lot.

 

[pnoble]

To whoever has their APM and do not feel satisfied with the sound, if you have an iOS or iPadOS device, go to Accessibility-Audio/Visual-Headphone Accommodation. Please turn on this option and you will have two options: you can use the stock presets to fix anything you want depending on what you don’t really like or you can do the custom settings route (highly recommended), pay attention to the short music sections and be honest with yourself so you can answer with whichever you like the most. After that, it will give you a custom setting that it’s not quite the presets. It completely changed my opinion of these headphones, they because from bassy and distant to more present and technically capable just by doing that. Holly Molly, what a change this single setting had made to my opinion of these headphones. Seriously, give it a try. (In the pic mine seems to be in a preset even though I set it up to custom, but the selected preset and my custom sound different).

Edit: After posting this response I saw you already did this, Keith. But I am keeping this post for others. This really is a benefit of being in the Apple ecosystem. I have to imagine that at least some of the remarkably varied opinion over the APM and other headphones in this and other forums is actually a function of different, typically age related, hearing characteristics.

As has been previously noted by myself and others you might want to go to the next step and create an Audiogram via the Health app which will result in an exact mapping of and compensation for your likely upper frequency hearing (loss) which occurs naturally as you age. Just follow the instructions after choosing Custom Audio SetUp.

On the Health app you are directed to download a hearing test app. The first (free) app option, which I used, is Mimi. Please note: you must use a headset/IEM they have calibrated to. I used the AP. Neither the APP or APM can be used with this app. (I initially tried calibrating with the APP and got a much worse and inaccurate (I'm assuming and hoping!) graphed measurement.

After you do this you will now find another option: 'Audiogram' listed above balance tone. For my 70 year old ears Audiogram and Balanced (slight) are not significantly different, but the audiogram setting does contour the sound for each ear independently for any difference (also normal). You can switch between Audiogram and Balanced Tone to compare.

PS: I'm speculating here, but the notation in the Settings app that this is only possible for Apple and Beats headphones and earphones suggests, perhaps, that the contouring information is passed to the headphone itself with the contouring done computationally in the H1 chips after AAC decoding, rather than in the source device which might require decode/re-encode.

 

[KeithPhantom]

After you do this you will now find another option: 'Audiogram' listed above balance tone. For my 70 year old ears Audiogram and Balanced (slight) are not significantly different, but the audiogram setting does contour the sound for each ear independently for any difference (also normal). You can switch between Audiogram and Balanced Tone to compare.

I already did this, and transformed my opinion from ‘not worth the price’ to ‘definitely staying’. The audiogram settings sounds better than balanced (slight) and much better than stock.

 

[Author]

First time posting. I’ve mostly enjoyed the discussion. A little more snark than I would like (at times), but it’s better here than a similar thread in ASR, so that’s something!

I’m wondering if others’ hearing tests came out as expected. Mimi is not yet calibrated for the APM, and my hearing fell into the “slight hearing loss category” for a couple tests and this alarmed me. Then I used the first gen APs, which are calibrated, and the results fell into the normal category for my age group (just turned 50). This means my hearing has deteriorated as expected!

I‘ve used that audiogram for my APM when sourcing from the iPhone. Unfortunately, Mimi does not have a hearing test calibrated for the APM - and I would prefer that.
It appears I would need to take a second test with the APs from the iPad to use an audiogram there, and I may do that. I prefer the presentation of Apple Music on the iPad. I also wonder if an APM audiogram would be slightly more accurate for me (when using the APM) than an AP audiogram.

As far as sound improvement, with the audiogram, it’s there - but as would be expected, it’s not as dramatic as were the changes in sound associated with the tests I “flunked” using the APM (due to the lack of calibration). Mids were augmented more than I would have preferred using the inaccurate audiograms. For the record, I’ve always enjoyed a more v shaped sound. In the past, I used the “rock” setting in the iTunes equalizer. Now I don’t use it at all.

I’ve always preferred a more exciting sound, so I might go back to balanced/slight.

As far as my overall impressions, these are significantly better than the XM3, to me. I don’t love the XM3 at all, but I needed their ANC. These (APM) are not as good as the 650s I also own. Clarity and staging suffer compared to the 650s. I also own and love Momentum True Wireless 2.

APM ANC is significantly better for me than the XM3 - generally. Higher frequency sounds might be a bit louder with the APM, but they aren’t much louder, and honestly I don’t mind. For my use case, this is the best ANC I’ve ever heard and it makes me very happy.

Transparent hearing is a revelation compared to the XM3.

Love the crown. I turn it accidentally sometimes, but that’s relatively rare.

Weight is a non factor for me. I‘ve had these cans since Sunday, and at first my neck felt a little sore after hours and hours of use (sitting in a chair, hunched over iPad or watching TV). But that has gone away for the most part (neck muscles adjusting?). I think the headband adds a huge overall comfort factor. The top of my head no longer grows sensitive. Amazing!

I‘m keeping these. I would have enjoyed even better SQ improvement over the XM3, which are just soooo veiled, but with all the tech that comes with the APM, I think these are a better value than others seem to think. I’ll be the first in line to buy an ATV that‘s compatible with spatial audio. I watched Blade Runner the other night on my iPad. Loved the spatial audio.

That is all. Jingle Bells.

 

[angelom]

There is a harder edge to the treble, with cymbals sounding slightly artificial (although not as bad as on the B&O H95 which have compression noise as well).

Where we're disagreeing is where I don't hearing the cymbals worse in the h95 than the APM like you hearing, and in the Tool track this is evident for me in several parts of the music. Yes, the cymbals aren't sounding like a good pair of wired headphone or even like my customs UERM (Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor), but for bt anc I think the timbre isn't so incorrect.

A very good track for hearing the mids, treble and the sound of cymbals reproduction differences between the APM and H95 is Reckoner by Radiohead. Maybe here you can hearing a more big difference that I mentioning in the quote above from my post yesterday.

 

[SilverEars]

I wonder what's the target age range for APM were expected? And was that in considersation when deciding on a hearing response. Keep in mind that it's quite normal to have a hump that rises to 3k based on studies done with head and torso dummies with microphone simulating the eardrums of the response of speakers angle to the HATS dummy. Which is why people overlay a target response with their measurements. APM isn't quite in that level for that hump and some people feel that mids seem a biy recessed.

I wonder if default tuning has anything to do with statistical age range of expected APM consumer?

 

[pnoble]

The more I listen the more the mids are bothering me, they’re quite recessed to my ears and vocals are too far back. Not sure if you can EQ on the iPhone anywhere?

Yes, you can! Under Settings > Accessibility > Audio/Visual. Please see my post and others on the subject. Before creating your own audiogram try adjusting Balanced Tone and Vocal Range. Start with default Slight.

 

[pnoble]

First time posting. I’ve mostly enjoyed the discussion. A little more snark than I would like (at times), but it’s better here than a similar thread in ASR, so that’s something!

I’m wondering if others’ hearing tests came out as expected. Mimi is not yet calibrated for the APM, and my hearing fell into the “slight hearing loss category” for a couple tests and this alarmed me. Then I used the first gen APs, which are calibrated, and the results fell into the normal category for my age group (just turned 50). This means my hearing has deteriorated as expected!

I‘ve used that audiogram for my APM when sourcing from the iPhone. Unfortunately, Mimi does not have a hearing test calibrated for the APM - and I would prefer that.
It appears I would need to take a second test with the APs from the iPad to use an audiogram there, and I may do that. I prefer the presentation of Apple Music on the iPad. I also wonder if an APM audiogram would be slightly more accurate for me (when using the APM) than an AP audiogram.

As far as sound improvement, with the audiogram, it’s there - but as would be expected, it’s not as dramatic as were the changes in sound associated with the tests I “flunked” using the APM (due to the lack of calibration). Mids were augmented more than I would have preferred using the inaccurate audiograms. For the record, I’ve always enjoyed a more v shaped sound. In the past, I used the “rock” setting in the iTunes equalizer. Now I don’t use it at all.

I’ve always preferred a more exciting sound, so I might go back to balanced/slight.

As far as my overall impressions, these are significantly better than the XM3, to me. I don’t love the XM3 at all, but I needed their ANC. These (APM) are not as good as the 650s I also own. Clarity and staging suffer compared to the 650s. I also own and love Momentum True Wireless 2.

APM ANC is significantly better for me than the XM3 - generally. Higher frequency sounds might be a bit louder with the APM, but they aren’t much louder, and honestly I don’t mind. For my use case, this is the best ANC I’ve ever heard and it makes me very happy.

Transparent hearing is a revelation compared to the XM3.

Love the crown. I turn it accidentally sometimes, but that’s relatively rare.

Weight is a non factor for me. I‘ve had these cans since Sunday, and at first my neck felt a little sore after hours and hours of use (sitting in a chair, hunched over iPad or watching TV). But that has gone away for the most part (neck muscles adjusting?). I think the headband adds a huge overall comfort factor. The top of my head no longer grows sensitive. Amazing!

I‘m keeping these. I would have enjoyed even better SQ improvement over the XM3, which are just soooo veiled, but with all the tech that comes with the APM, I think these are a better value than others seem to think. I’ll be the first in line to buy an ATV that‘s compatible with spatial audio. I watched Blade Runner the other night on my iPad. Loved the spatial audio.

That is all. Jingle Bells.

If you calibrated using the AP you should be OK for the APM.

The app needs to know what the sensitivity of the headphones/earphones you are using is, across the range of test frequencies, identify or set the output of your iPhone, and compensate accordingly, so that the amplitude of the sound you are hearing is objectively known and your hearing can be accurately measured and graphed against a 'normal' hearing curve.

That graph should be good for calibrating any listening device, or rather the signal driving it, in order to compensate for any hearing loss. What you then hear approximates what someone with perfect hearing would hear in any particular listening device with its particular sound profile. The only compensation is for your hearing not for the listening device. So what headphones/earphones you used for the test shouldn't actually matter.

However, being able to calibrate with an APP should be more accurate assuming an app is calibrated for it, since the earpiece has a more exact and closer position on/in the ear and ambient sound is better masked.

I haven't tried the other apps listed in the Health app. Has anyone? Using an AP surely isn't ideal and I don't have any of the other headphones the Mimi app has been calibrated for.

 

[KeithPhantom]

Using an AP surely isn't ideal and I don't have any of the other headphones the Mimi app has been calibrated for.

My brain seems to have been compensating for the lack of calibration since I used the Mimi app and disregarded that the APM wasn't calibrated, but even though the results are not what I would call accurate (tells me I have slight hearing loss, which my doctor just tell me my ears were pristine), it is useful to generate an EQ. I generated the custom EQ with the flawed audiogram and nothing sounds bad or wrong. There is no channel imbalance, the tonality and timber were fixed, and everything seems to be EQ to my taste. I like it better than the presets and the local custom settings.

 

[angelom]

I wonder what's the target age range for APM were expected? And was that in considersation when deciding on a hearing response. Keep in mind that it's quite normal to have a hump that rises to 3k based on studies done with head and torso dummies with microphone simulating the eardrums of the response of speakers angle to the HATS dummy. Which is why people overlay a target response with their measurements. APM isn't quite in that level for that hump and some people feel that mids seem a biy recessed.

I wonder if default tuning has anything to do with statistical age range of expected APM consumer?

I think we must accepting that v-shape signature is very appealing for many people, and if the v-shape isn't exaggerating like in APM, this sound is easily liking and maybe wowing too. Many people listening very loud too and a more neutral/reference mids and treble reproduction can be fatiguing. This is, in big part, I think the success of xm3 and xm4. You noticing now that some people, like me, preferring the Accessibility settings of Balance +slight or Vocal + slight (my case), and this two settings are so different than the APM factory sound, but maybe someone listening at high volumes for more time thinking 'this 2 options are fatiguing'.

This is similar with b&w p7 wireless (and momentum 3) but p7w having more mid-bass (more slam and moire thick mids) than sub- bass but having better reproduction of mid-mids up until treble. The tuning of the APM, like the p7w and momentum 3 and momentum true wireless v1 & 2 is very intelligent for a headphone that's main intention is for consumers wanting better sound than xm3, xm4, qc35 and nc700. If you adding in the APM the best anc in the market today and other features, the success of the APM isn't a surprise at all. For factory sound I preferring shure aonic 50, h9, p7w (only a little) and specially h95 but I can understanding people (average consumers) preferring the sound of the APM than the 4 others.

 

[pnoble]

My brain seems to have been compensating for the lack of calibration since I used the Mimi app and disregarded that the APM wasn't calibrated, but even though the results are not what I would call accurate (tells me I have slight hearing loss, which my doctor just tell me my ears were pristine), it is useful to generate an EQ. I generated the custom EQ with the flawed audiogram and nothing sounds bad or wrong. There is no channel imbalance, the tonality and timber were fixed, and everything seems to be EQ to my taste. I like it better than the presets and the local custom settings.

Might I suggest what your doctor was really saying was that you ears are pristine for your age. From what I understand age related high frequency hearing loss begins at around 25 and inexorably increases with age.

 

[KeithPhantom]

Might I suggest what your doctor was really saying was that you ears are pristine for your age. From what I understand age related high frequency hearing loss begins at around 25 and inexorably increases with age.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

 

[3Putter]

Explain how please because both are transmitting via AAC. Only possibility is that Tidal is using better source material but even still it's getting compressed into AAC. I'm not doubting you I just don't understand how it's possible.

I don't know how it's possible. I'm not an engineer but there for certain is a distinct difference in the same tracks being played from Tidal than from Apple Music. Apple Music doesn't sound bad it just 'warmer' and muddier. Some albums/tracks are more similar in their sound but some are further apart. I just assumed it was from the Tidal processing but others may have better technical justifications for it. Or, I could be just crazy. I'd love to give up my Tidal Account and save $20 a month and use my family Apple Music plan...