AirPods Max
Jan 5, 2021 at 11:13 PM Post #2,191 of 5,629
I had the Pro's. Gave them to my daughter. She can't tell the difference between any of them and thinks I'm insane.

The average consumer just wants to be able to hear music, and equates sound quality to the level of bass. Most people don’t know any better and would look at an audiophile as crazy if they brought up frequency response.

I know I was looked at as crazy when I returned my first pair of AirPods back when they couldn’t keep them in stock citing sound quality as the reason. I do own a pair now that I enjoyed for a while that I may sell. In fact, I’m kind of bored of my current headphone collection and will look into AirPods Max.
 
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Jan 6, 2021 at 12:03 AM Post #2,192 of 5,629
I said that it blurred lines, and I stand by that. Nice gear collection. I'm only moderately surprised that you don't have a more developed ear by now. That's how it goes in this hobby, starting wrong mental models and continuing to build from there is common and why so many forum acolytes are bass-shy or think that the APP is more "neutral" than the APM.

In your E4000 example, I assume you're using a wire. Are you comparing to the APM with a wire on ANC=off? If not, that's not a true comparison and just noisy bad data.

I think most of the readers here would do well to learn more about Computational Photography and then consider how Apple is deploying its Computational Audio tech in these headphones as well as their Homepods. Here's a good primer:




What's not mentioned in the above video is Apple's uniquely skilled Mechanical Engineers. There are not many companies with the kind of Mechanical Product Design culture which Apple has. My company has it. Tesla has it. Pixel, not so much. But the Pixel EE & Comput-photo teams are very legit. One of the unique aspects of the iPhone camera is that it has a mechanical optical image stabilization system on top of computational photography. Those teams over there really sweat the details on their product design. I imagine that the custom driver hits some very exacting targets, which is part of why we see the measurements from Jude performing in such an "most interesting" manner. I don't think many other manufacturers have the kind of acoustic chamber built into their earpads which these have. Just look at the horn-like shape of the structure. Nor do other players have the same kind of end to end control on the signal processing chain for a computational audio product.

Here are some things which we know about these: We know that everything was designed from the bottom up by the largest team of some of best engineers on the planet. Bar none. I can back that up due to my day to day work in the valley where I assemble teams of similar scope/nature. I know the teams at the various headphone firms, their structure and their makeup. Nobody but Bose, Sennheiser, Harman, B&W, B&O are anywhere near as accomplished and it's usually less density of talent with a few gems at the top. Bose actually has some of the best of the bunch, which would come as a surprise to this forum but I digress.

We know that they are actually analyzing all incoming audio to classify the best way to represent the sound on the other side. My guess is that this an Acoustic Modeling system that classifies certain acoustic "events" like drums, cymbals, voices etc and determines how to best represent the sound on the output side. From there, they could apply techniques similar to compu-photo which might include denoise, remixing, resolution enhancement and beyond. We also know that each H1 chip contains 10 Apple-designed audio cores for real-time processing and I'd put money on that team having spent some late nights discussing real-time vs near-real-time for various performance characteristics of these puppies.

When it comes to speaker drivers and materials, I'm obviously a fan of the breakthroughs happening at ORA and would love to see that tech incorporated into products like this but if they can master their materials there in the same way that SpaceX & Tesla have special steel or Apple has a way to make Aluminium achieve certain performance properties which other Aluminium drivers couldn't achieve, does it matter which material they use? All that matters is the performance. And that's where this next-generation of computationally driven products really begin to stand out and blur lines in a way which the previous generations of phones, point and shoots and wireless headphones did not or could not.

Again, look at how these techniques allow phones to significantly outperform their spec sheet and look at the way these puppies measure.

Apple is retaining exceptionally tight control of an end to end performance here that allows mobile audio to blur the lines between mobile audio and TOTL rigs in the same way that the iPhone cameras are disrupting camera technologies. It's computational. And it's the future.

The other aspect about these is that beyond their incredible performance within their class, these are exceptionally useful products for day to day life. Each of us have only so much time and money to allocate to various passions. As mentioned, there's really no contest between these and other ANC headsets. These are a push, at the least, with Panda/Mobious/ORA and thus are decidedly tackling mid-fi and wireless markets concurrently with product design far beyond what's available in either.

I'm selling just about every other headphone these compete with in my collection. I'll be keeping my iSine, ORA, JBL Club One (For DJing), and AKG K371. I have a $6k speaker setup and no reason to invest in an Open-Back/Brick-Stack rig at this time. I tend to prefer headphones that are multi-use and are tools for my life. These things knocked me off my feet.

One last note on tuning: If we consider the deviations from Harman, we actually have something similar to what the ORA team did with their tuning, but with slightly less pronounced deviations in presence and bass. Here are the notes behind the tuning which the Apple design here seems to echo: https://www.kickstarter.com/project...rst-graphene-headphones/posts/2481284?lang=fr

So yes, these are wizardry.


I am definitely on the tech side. Yes right now computational photography is not as good as camera with big sensors, but one day the software will be so good, that we won't be able to tell the difference between real life image and one that is computer generated, same with sound, when will that day come? I don't know, probably not in my lifetime, but it will.
 
Jan 6, 2021 at 1:35 AM Post #2,193 of 5,629
I’ve been reading your posts and I wonder how you can find everything Apple so marvelously perfect! I own many Apple devices and I love Apple, but they are far from perfect especially when quality control is concerned. Please let me know; did AirPods Pro pass also this notion of rigorous Apple testing??
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/airpods-pro-rattlegate.2233658/page-23

I have changed them both twice as well as millions of other consumers worldwide for the well known rattling problem with anc on. I mean ok, they are able to offer big things in tech and certainly computational audio and photography are some of them. But please first let’s make the AirPods Pro to not rattle for a while when I use the microphone with anc!! I guess it should be simple for the Big Apple Inc!!
I have had several iPhones, have two iPads, Macbook Pro, Apple Watches, Apple TV 4K, Airpods pro,wife and daughter have iPhones and AP. There has not been a single issue with any of our Apple products. Never. I think that is pretty good achievement?
 
Jan 6, 2021 at 4:26 AM Post #2,194 of 5,629
I have had several iPhones, have two iPads, Macbook Pro, Apple Watches, Apple TV 4K, Airpods pro,wife and daughter have iPhones and AP. There has not been a single issue with any of our Apple products. Never. I think that is pretty good achievement?
and what does that mean? Since you didn’t have, no one had issues? i also have not faced issues with iPhones and iPads but I faced with AirPods Pro. Apple has accepted the problem and issued a recall program under which I have returned them twice. What I mean is that nothing is perfect as that poster suggests, and thus when there is water inside earcups it may (or may not) be a serious quality control issue as with the AirPods Pro. In any case it does not seem as a ”rigorous quality testing” as that poster implies. It didn’t happen to you but it happened to many many others, so there you go.
 
Jan 6, 2021 at 4:32 AM Post #2,195 of 5,629
Apple actually issued a recall with the AirPods Pro rattle, static, whatever you want to call it. I had my left get the issue then my right a week later (after my left got replaced). My current pair hasn’t succumb to the issue yet, but they will since they’re in the date range (produced before October 2020).
exactly the same with me, but happened twice on both buds. I am hoping that the current ones will not present the problem again! Just hoping though...
 
Jan 6, 2021 at 4:49 AM Post #2,196 of 5,629
and what does that mean? Since you didn’t have, no one had issues? i also have not faced issues with iPhones and iPads but I faced with AirPods Pro. Apple has accepted the problem and issued a recall program under which I have returned them twice. What I mean is that nothing is perfect as that poster suggests, and thus when there is water inside earcups it may (or may not) be a serious quality control issue as with the AirPods Pro. In any case it does not seem as a ”rigorous quality testing” as that poster implies. It didn’t happen to you but it happened to many many others, so there you go.

Yes, this is true.

-- In many years I buying 5 MacBook Pro, and having problems with the model of 2011. And is many reports too of problems with the keyboard after 2015 models until 2019 (and Apple going back with old type of keyboard after many, many bad reports). And many people complaining (like me) about not good idea replacing the physical keys in the top with 'smart' (digital) bar in recent years. Apple even changing the digital "esc" key with physical key again in 2019.

-- I having same problems 2 times with the first model of AirPods (the sound very low in the left earphone).

-- One problem with one iPod (I think is 2008 or 2009) and needing replacing.

-- The famous antenna problem of iPhone 4 (but I never owning this model)

-- Of the 7 iPhones I owning, my iPhone 5 needing replacing for because Is dying one day completely.

I never having problems with the 3 iPads I buying or the Apple watch or Apple TV.
 
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Jan 6, 2021 at 4:54 AM Post #2,197 of 5,629
exactly the same with me, but happened twice on both buds. I am hoping that the current ones will not present the problem again! Just hoping though...

If you have an assembly date later than mid October, it won’t have the issue. If you do not, you will have said issue. I’ll have the issue again for sure, it’s not a question of if but when.
 
Jan 6, 2021 at 5:04 AM Post #2,198 of 5,629
Yes, this is true.

-- In many years I buying 5 MacBook Pro, and having problems with the model of 2011. And is many reports too of problems with the keyboard after 2015 models until 2019 (and Apple going back with old type of keyboard after many, many bad reports). And many people complaining (like me) about not good idea replacing the physical keys in the top with 'smart' (digital) bar in recent years. Apple even changing the digital "esc" key with physical key again in 2019.


-- I having same problems 2 times with the first model of AirPods (the sound very low in the left earphone).

-- One problem with one iPod (I think is 2008 or 2009) and needing replacing.

-- The famous antenna problem of iPhone 4 (but I never owning this model)

-- Of the 7 iPhones I owning, my iPhone 5 needing replacing for because Is dying one day completely.

I never having problems with the 3 iPads I buying or the Apple watch or Apple TV.
yes, correct! You reminded me of this famous huge issue with the MacBook Pro butterfly keyboard and stuck keys! They went on selling the same keyboard even though they were aware of the issues, for something like 4 years, on a 4000 euro machine!! They just replaced this keyboard recently with the scissor one. That’s what I would call Rigorous Quality Testing, the Apple way!! :xf_cool:
 
Jan 6, 2021 at 5:13 AM Post #2,199 of 5,629

I have a pair of Homepods for my bedroom TV connected as the output source for an Apple TV 4K and the Homepod virtual surround works ok, but it isn't mind-blowing and still some way off a proper surround setup. But I think is another good reflection of the discussions which have been going on over the last few pages.

The computational advances Apple are doing in a number of fields are great and will lead to products which are great for the average consumer. Hence why I agree with your assessment that it "blurs the lines". Apple are actively killing off some product categories (think affordable point and shoot cameras).
I don’t think computational will be able to completely overcome the limitations of physics, but they are clearly pushing those boundaries as far as they can. So for people who care about it, a pair of Airpods Max are never going to compete with a pair of headphones which have been built and tuned to produce the best sound possible, fed from a decent source, amplifications etc. But they will sound great to the average listener and better than a lot of the competition.

And a pair of Homepods do a good job of giving an entertaining sound when watching a film, with some virtualised surround, which will be amazing to the average person, but not a replacement for anyone who cares about their surround sound, and have invested money and time in getting it set-up to their preference.

And finally, cameras, my iPhone 12 Pro takes fantastic everyday pictures, and manages to handle really challenging situations to produce pictures I can enjoy years from now. But it can’t replace my Nikon mirrorless with professional optics, and the type of photography I can achieve with that. That is a combination of sensor, optics, glass-filters and manual control which a phone with a tiny lens and sensor will not be able to achieve; no matter the digital trickery.

Their sometimes-misleading marketing notwithstanding, Apple aren’t aiming to replace the hobbyist’s cameras, home theatre setups or amped wired headphones. They are looking to convince the average consumer that they don’t need to get into the weeds to have a great experience, and to buy everything Apple of course. And they are doing a very good job of all of it.
 
Jan 6, 2021 at 5:21 AM Post #2,200 of 5,629
and what does that mean? Since you didn’t have, no one had issues? i also have not faced issues with iPhones and iPads but I faced with AirPods Pro. Apple has accepted the problem and issued a recall program under which I have returned them twice. What I mean is that nothing is perfect as that poster suggests, and thus when there is water inside earcups it may (or may not) be a serious quality control issue as with the AirPods Pro. In any case it does not seem as a ”rigorous quality testing” as that poster implies. It didn’t happen to you but it happened to many many others, so there you go.
Every product have issues. Every.
But why it is Apple who gets all the attention because of issues? :wink:
 
Jan 6, 2021 at 6:27 AM Post #2,201 of 5,629
So, same walk, same temperature, same dog, same cap, different headphones (B&O H95). The H95 shows although some condensation, but less than the APM.

237C05A7-EDA7-4EF1-89EE-49A2F38C0B50.jpeg
 
Jan 6, 2021 at 6:41 AM Post #2,202 of 5,629
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Further elaborating on our computational future, let's look at the LightL16. This is a great example of how next gen ISP design along with enough of the -right- sensors can really chomp at the bits of traditional DSLR tech: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/4/10/17218758/light-l16-review-camera-photos

While that camera was objectively a product failure that could be measured on a Juicero magnitude scale, the computational imaging team behind it has just released a next-gen ISP for Autonomy that's really quite stunning: https://light.co/

As you can see, they've pivoted from phones to autonomy yet their core technology that allows basic sensors to perform extraordinarily well is what remains core to the team at Light.

In this example, we can see what computational signal process techniques can do with dedicated hardware. I wouldn't be surprised if the APM was actually closer to the L16 vs DSLR in performance once Jude continues to share more thoughts. I expect these custom drivers and the custom acoustic housing were meeting some very wild performance specs in the R&D days.

Wizards. Headphones by wizards.
And then you put an old Walkman with a modern ‘old school’ headphone against an iPhone + APM, and it all falls apart.

It’s all about convenience. Same goes for smartphones versus DSLR’s/system camera’s. Smartphone camera’s don’t come anywhere near the quality of dedicated camera’s. And 95+% of the time they don’t need to. And they are more convenient, and cost less.

73939810-D7FA-4CAB-AAC3-CD29568B99AA.jpeg
 
Jan 6, 2021 at 7:00 AM Post #2,203 of 5,629
So, same walk, same temperature, same dog, same cap, different headphones (B&O H95). The H95 shows although some condensation, but less than the APM.

237C05A7-EDA7-4EF1-89EE-49A2F38C0B50.jpeg

Maybe is good mentioning for people that don't knowing the h95, that the dark part in the top isn't water but is one component of the h95.h95condensation.png
 
Jan 6, 2021 at 7:14 AM Post #2,205 of 5,629
exactly the same with me, but happened twice on both buds. I am hoping that the current ones will not present the problem again! Just hoping though...
I was a day one purchaser of the APP and I had the problem before it was ever identified. I think I may have been one of the first to report it on Twitter and to Apple. They replaced them quickly and I haven’t had a problem since. I use them multiple hours/day with my zoom meetings and have since I received them in August.
 
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