[macinsomniac]

Hi Guys,

I don't post on head-fi much (at all until now), but I've been piecing together a rig over the past year and need advice on the best way to proceed with my vinyl setup.

Basically, I need advice on an inexpensive phono stage...

Previously, I preferred the sound of my vinyl setup: running my turntable through an old Kenwood integrated (drove my headphones better than my ipod and has phono stage) to my AKG K701s. It sounded great. That was until I got my Little Dot MkIII. Now my iPod through the MkIII to the 701s sounds better. Since the iPod didn't sound anywhere near as good as vinyl through the Kenwood, I'm pretty sure I could get better sound by cutting the old Kenwood out entirely (I don't need an integrated amp since I don't have speakers), and running the turntable to the Little Dot. Trouble is I can't decide on a phone stage.

The guys at the local stereo shop (seemingly by default) recommend the NAD PP-2. But, reviews of the Rolls Bellari VP130 make it seem like the only way to go at it's pricepoint... still, the Bellari doesn't get much love, for example on the Steve Hoffman forum, because some believe it's a starved plate design... so I thought I would put it to a vote.

Has anyone heard either or both of these and care to weight in? Other stages to consider?


I know others have asked (very) similar questions, but the threads never seem to come to a consensus, so any advice would be greatly appreciated,
Thanks,
James




If it helps, here's a list of the gear I'm listening with:

Headphones:
AKG K701
AKG K271
Sennheiser HD555
Grado SR60 + Bowl Pads

Amplifiers:
Little Dot MkIII
Kenwood KA-5700

Sources:
Technics SL - 5200 -> Shure v15 type III / Shure M97xe
iPod Classic - 160gb

 

[Uncle Erik]

I voted for the NAD PP2. I used one for awhile and thought it sounded pretty good. If I recall, it found a new home with nmaher when I picked up a Conrad-Johnson PV2 preamp. I liked the PV2 better - I think tubes are a natural fit for vinyl. I still have the PV2 around, but stumbled across a used Yph from Fi earlier this year. It was a spur of the moment purchase, but I love the Yph.

But you might want to look at a good, used preamp with a phono stage in addition to dedicated phono preamps. I paid about $300 for the Conrad-Johnson. In addition to the tubed phono stage, it gave me a source selector and two tape loops out. The tape loops are perfect for hooking up a couple of headphone amps.

 

[memepool]

The phonostage in the old Kenwood should be ok as it's a pretty nice amp but maybe it just needs servicing as it is getting on a bit. Somewhere like this place Oak Tree which specialises in vintage electronics would be ideal but any competent local electrical repair shop should be able to clean it and replace the odd capacitor so long as you have the manual.

Have you tried running the tape outs from the Kenwood to the line in on the Little Dot? then you'll be listening to the phono pre-amp on the Kenwood as opposed to the headphone amp which is probably not as good as your dedicated one anyway.

If you are happy with this set-up I would spend the money instead on a new cartidge. The Shure ones you have probably arn't an idea mechanical match for the Technics tonearm.

I'm not too familar with that particular model but I'd bet it's a medium high mass tonearm like on the SL1200MkII which is probably not suited to the V15 and stretches the M97, although playing with the stabiliser brush down will help. You could get a magnesium headshell which will reduce the arms effective mass and improve the sound quality. Look out for an ADC LMG-1 on ebay or else Stanton make one called the HS-4 which you'll find for about 10 dollars in any DJ shop.

You could also sell the Shure V15 on ebay for a very good price (100+USD) though and get a high output moving coil like the Denon DL110 or 160 which would be a much better match for the Technics arm and work fine with the MM input on the Kenwood.

If you do opt for a new phonostage I would 2nd the NAD and also look into the Cambridge Audio 540p or 640p ( which adds MC capabilities).

 

[vo_obgyn]

Hi There,

I was wondering, what is your turntable, tonearm, and cartridge? The NAD Phono Amp sounds good, but it would be good to know more about your current vinyl rig. Also, don't forget to align your cartridge and set up your tonearm well to get the most out of your rig.

EDIT: I missed your source list. My vote is the NAD

 

[timb5881]

I love my VP129/ It sounds great, and you can change the sound to suit you by tube swapping. Another nice feature is the rumble filter. The other bonus is that the headphone out section is very good.

Tim

 

[tubes]

Don't forget about the Cambridge 640P, the folks at Audioasylum feel this phono stage is the one to beat under $500.00 - $600.00. They can be had used for around $120.00 and I believe $169.00 new. A freind of mine uses one with a $3500.00 table and loves it. Good luck.

Phill

 

[paulllaser]

I would suggest you look into the Clearaudio Micro Basic. New $350 but they are on AgoN often for $150 - 175. It is an astoundingly good phono pre for the money. Has MM & MC switch. Acoustic Sounds has them new for $275. I believe they are at the end of production, replaced by the Basic for $900.

 

[jsaliga]

There are a million threads on this very topic. A search will yield all the advice you could ever hope for. Besides, you are not going to find consenus on a forum this large as there will always be divergent opinion.

--Jerome

 

[macinsomniac]

Thanks for the quick relies. It looks like I'll have to read up on the Azur 640P and the Micro Basic.

On paper at least (if I'm reading the specs right) the 640P blows the PP-2 and the Bellari out of the water: 5db better SNR over both and an order of magnitude less THD (maybe that's over stated: .03%(PP-2) and .02%(Bellari) v .007% for the Azur).
The Micro Basic has even better THD ratings (.004%), but a lower SNR 82dB for the Azur v. 65 for the micro basic (both for MC).

Based on those numbers I'm thinking the Cambridge. I figure I'd be more sensitive to SNR than THD. The wide range of THD values in stages people say "sound good" makes me think the .003% difference in THD between the Azur and the basic isn't as significant as the 17 db difference in SNR. Does that sound reasonable? All that of course depends on the tests being done the same way. Unfortunately, I can't audition either.

About Turntable and the Kenwood: The table, it is set up as best I know how. I settled on Baerwald alignment, and adjusted the downforce with a Shure stylus pressure gauge as per the instructions included with the m97. You're probably right about the tonearm, though. I'll look into different carts, the Denons looks interesting. I haven't really tried to run the turntable through the Kenwood's phono. It's getting to the point where it needs a major service or to be replaced and I was leaning towards replacing it, since it has a few too many features for my needs.

If I go with the Azur 640p I could almost add the Denon DL110 for not too much more than the price of the bellari + shipping. Hum...

Anything else to consider?

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by macinsomniac /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I go with the Azur 640p I could almost add the Denon DL110 for not too much more than the price of the bellari + shipping. Hum... Anything else to consider?

Since you are using a tube/valve headphone amp I think the Cambridge makes the most sense as it is very very quiet as you noticed and is also much more flexible than the Kenwood in terms of the carts it can work with, allowing variable loading to match pretty much everything feasible.

The Bellari is well regarded but you already have valves in the signal path so it's main selling point doesn't really add much in your set up.

I just thought that you may as well try using the Kenwood as a pre amp by feeding the tape outs to your Microdot to see whether it's the sound of the headphone stage rather than the phonostage which is the weak point in the chain.

Kenwood vintage amps are often quite pricey 2nd hand and sought after, but obviously they made so many at all levels of the market that it's hard to generalise about the quality of them. I'd definitely make enquiries about it with a place that knows their onions though as if you decide to sell it you may as well get as much for it as possible.

 

[tubes]

The DL-110 is a great choice, good dynamics, large soundstage with good clarity.

 

[juzmister]

The TEC 760lc is pretty good...

 

[papomaster]

What's better between a Cambridge 640p, and TCC TC-760, a Nad pp-2 and a bellari? I'd use it with a thorens 160, so it needs a groud to work.

 

[tubes]

Hard to tell, I haven't listened to any of them but the popularity of the 640p and the Bellari make it possible to purchase used from Audiogon and try them out, keep the one you like and sell the other and you won't lose much if any money on the deal. I will say that the NAD doesn't seem to get as much love as the 640 ro Bellari, have no idea about the TCC.


Phill

 

[ssportclay]

The Hagerman Bugle will be the quietest of the bunch because of it's battery power supply but some people don't like to fool with batteries. For it to support moving coil it can be reconfigured or step-up transformers can be added. The Azur 640P is a good alternative for those who demand a good plug-in unit.