[Barry]

I have a similar take. I listen in real life conditions, with real life rooms, real life perceptions and real life subjective impressions. Just like most people can't tell the difference between coke and pepsi in a blind taste test (has been tested) but just about everybody I know has a distinct preference and will swear by their preference, people also experience audio in real life differently than they do in blind test conditions. I believe that choice in taste, like listening, is a function of many variables. Some are easily tested, others not.

As far as I am concerned, if A/B/X tests convince you that there is no difference and you are therefore happy with whatever stereo you have then more power to you. If you listen independently of an A/B/X testing or choose to care little about the results of such a test, then more power to you too. Like in the old days, "power to the people."

As I said earlier, sometimes I have heard differences in components, other times not. I don't worry about it.

Scientific measurement is valuable, but I don't think that it always capture the human experience.

 

[Oedipus Rex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif We want gear that sounds better to us in our home listening rooms. If I bring "A" home and I listen to it and I say it sounds better than "B", then it sounds better than "B" (tautology). So I buy "A" and replace "B" and indeed I now believe I have better sound, so in fact I do have better sound since what I think when I listen is all that matters. I do not care if I would have failed an A/B/X test. That has no bearing on this issue whatsoever. I do not care if you sneak in to my house, re-install "B" but make it look like "A" by faking the chassis, and I never realize it (maybe there is absolutely no difference in reality) -- I remain happy. I have better sound, in the sense that I think I have better sound -- my music sounds better to me. That is all that matters. It really does sound better. Had I not switched "A" for "B" the sound would not have improved -- for me. If I need to spend a lot of money to make myself think it sounds better, so be it. I am happier when the music "sounds better". Placebo treatments cure people.

Yes, but that is just one side of the coin. I'm pretty sure that if I knew with 100% certainty that the rig I now own is the best there is, I would enjoy it more, because now when I start to critically listen, I wonder whenever there is some "perceived impurity of whatever sort" that is that just in the CD or could that perhaps be fixed with the Odin power cord.

Also, I'm pretty sure I would get another kind of placebo effect: I mean if I really believed that what I am hearing is the best there is, I would probably "hear" it as grand indeed. This was the whole point of my original question, I was kind of seeking for some good placebo injection.

 

[Berlioz]

Placebo treatments do cure people. But how much are you willing to pay for a placebo?

Yeah, you could see a homeopathic doctor and get tons of meds, even though homeopathy has never been found to be more effective than a placebo in any scientific study.

That might set you back thousands of dollars over the course of a year.

Or, you could see your family doctor and get a whole bunch of sugar pills for 10 bucks. The choice is yours.

There's nothing wrong with the placebo effect. It does indeed cure people. But at what cost? If I could pay $10 for happiness, or $1000 for the same amount of happiness, I'd go with the former.

Now, it is also proven that people taking a more expensive placebo will actually get better results than people using a cheaper one. However, once someone crosses the line into $10,000 cables, then it's just too much, IMO. They could be spending that money on other things.

This debate will rage on forever. Some people are curious and skeptical. Others have faith in their own decisions. As long as both groups are happy, I don't see any reason to constantly debate this. The more we fight, the more miserable everyone gets.

The skeptics are frustrated by the believers apparent inability to accept theory and scientific data.

The believers are passionate about their high-end equipment, and don't understand why skeptics need to pick everything apart.

Myself, I'm a skeptic. But I also understand that sometimes you just need to let things go. As long as we don't rub shoulders too often, that's cool with me.

 

[wavoman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berlioz /img/forum/go_quote.gif once someone crosses the line into $10,000 cables, then it's just too much, IMO. They could be spending that money on other things....Myself, I'm a skeptic. But I also understand that sometimes you just need to let things go. As long as we don't rub shoulders too often, that's cool with me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus Rex /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...I wonder whenever there is some "perceived impurity of whatever sort" that is that just in the CD or could that perhaps be fixed with the Odin power cord...mean if I really believed that what I am hearing is the best there is, I would probably "hear" it as grand indeed.

Great post, Berlioz! Agreed on all fronts ... although for some people, $10,000 to them is what $100 is to me. Still I would say to them: giving to charity would be better than buying that cable. But could this also be said to me re my $100 cable if the cable is in fact no better than a $10 one??

I think the way out of this bind is to set a family budget: include charity, buying music, spending on audio tweaks, etc. etc. Then spend you annual amount as your ears tell you and be happy!

This would help you too, Oedipus. If something about your music seems off, go ahead and try to fix it with a tweak! Why the heck not! Just set a hard budget for the year and don't overspend it. If you do your research, and purchase well (especially used) you will always be satisfied -- you have done the best you can. Now enjoy!

 

[Oedipus Rex]

Ok, now that we have pretty much concluded that special cables, extra prizy amps and dacs have no audible effect on the sound, lets push the envelope one last time, my gentle reader, and assail the unassailable, deny the undeniable, and question the phones themselves! I don't mean to say that there would be no difference between 20 $ headphones vs 200 $ ones, but what about the higher end. This to me is very important question, because I have been considering a lot should I upgrade my stax 303 to the Omega, and the HD650 to HD800, but after being disillusioned by the amp/dac heist, I have begun to wonder. Have there been any ABX test between highend phones (are they even possible?) and what have been the results. And do any of you have experience between say the low and high end stax producs. And what about the 650 VS 800 ? I know there are thousands of raving posts about the HD800 in the headphone forum, but there are also thousands of raving posts about just any product to be found..

 

[Pio2001]

ABX is not possible because of the differences in shape and weight, but measurments show that differences between headphones are big. Compare for example the Beyer DT880 to the Denon AHD7000 :

This is clearly audible and matches the subjective impressions. Differences are bigger between high end headphones than between high end speakers.

 

[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pio2001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif ABX is not possible because of the differences in shape and weight, but measurments show that differences between headphones are big. Compare for example the Beyer DT880 to the Denon AHD7000 : This is clearly audible and matches the subjective impressions. Differences are bigger between high end headphones than between high end speakers.

That information is incomplete. You should check isolation too, as it is also a factor when measuring headphones. (Adding these because there is more in understanding those graphs)

Anyways it is very difficult (if not impossible) to do an ABX comparison between different headphones.

There is another thing to take in account. If you are going to compare two headphones from the same manufacturer it is more possible that the more costly has a different sound, not very far away from the previous mid-fi (cheaper) model. Bare in mind that headphones that already sound good can be only changed in some little aspects. You cannot deviate too much from the desired "sound signature" if you want to have a sound that is listenable.

There is indeed a difference between higher end models and cheaper ones, but when does the price sky rocket from the performance in relation to a lesser model? (when for an increase in price the price increase gets away from the increase in performance) Hope you understand. Really tired and hard for me to express myself good...

 

[Oedipus Rex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pio2001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif ABX is not possible because of the differences in shape and weight, but measurments show that differences between headphones are big. Compare for example the Beyer DT880 to the Denon AHD7000 : This is clearly audible and matches the subjective impressions. Differences are bigger between high end headphones than between high end speakers.

Yes, that was between 2 different manufacturers, but if you take same manufacturer, like stax for example :

6moons audio reviews: STAX*3030 vs 4040 systems

"Back on my head, the SR-303 proved a virtual clone of the SR-404 not just in the looks, size and constructional details department. The only useful aural differentiator I thought I could eventually pin down? A very fine softening of leading edges. It made the Classic sound a smidgen warmer than the Signature - not quite as precise. Perhaps. "

The difference in prize : 163 euros

 

[Yikes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus Rex /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have never believed in cables and the other "total snakeoil" products, but lately I've been starting to wonder are there really any differences even between things like amps (other than their output strength) and dacs. Currently I'm using HD-650 with questionable amp (Tandberg preamp) and poor dac/source(sb audigy), and I would like to hear a honest truth from the skeptics, would there be ANY Difference on the sound if I bought 2000 euro DAC and some mega amp like B22 (My current amp has more than enough raw power to drive the HD650) Or is my set now finished and I can feel happy to know that I get the best sound there is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus Rex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks all for the great advice! Just woke up and was delighted with the amount of replies. Really appreciate it. To contribute to the discussion a little. First of all, my Shanling cd-player has a nice option of enabling and disabling upsampling on the fly, and even when listening to it with my Stax (Which as far as I know, are about as revealing as headphones get) I am hard pressed to hear any difference. I have not tried it with any "difficult" passages, like some weird recording of domino figures with 200 hundred cymbal players but on normal recordings the difference, if there is one, is so small as to be safely ignored. Also, I have read, that in order to have a real AB test, you must make sure that the output level is balanced with an actual meter, if the difference is say 0.5 desibels, the ear might hear them as having the same volume, but different, and then give fancy names to these differences. Just my 2 cents. EDIT: One question I forgot to ask in my original post: what about these balanced cables/balanced amps. Are there a real benefits for doing that?

First: The OP is a major Troll. First claiming a 650/Tandberg/Soundcard system, and the the next day it's magically a Stax/Shanling system. Which is it? Reading further all the OP is doing is being a MAJOR TROLL.

Second: There's to be NO DBX discussions. This thread should be closed.

so many replies to this thread are total BS that to reply to them all would take all day.

The Headphone out of a Tandberg Preamp is surprisingly good (If the preamp is still operating 100%, by this time most need at least some work on the Volume and Balance Pots). Remember that there were no consumer Headphone Amps when Tandberg was making very high quality preamps. Tandberg Preamps had excellent Phono stages and decent headphone jacks.

There are a few soundcards that have decent quality DAC's and even half passable headphone outputs. Unfortunately they are stuck inside the Noisiest RF environment in the entire house. This is why going external with even very modest equipment yields audible improvements.

No one forces high end cables down anyones throats. Everyone saying that they are total snake oil are saying that IN Their Opinion they are. If a person had any sense at all once they get together a decent system they should borrow a few different High End Cables and give them a listen. If you hear a difference, and the difference is worth the price to you (Personal value judgment) then buy them, if not don't.

There are entirely too many militant anti-high-end activists loitering around every audio forum. People who believe that cables and some other tweaks make worthwhile improvements in their systems tend to share the info and encourage others to try it. Whereas people who think everything high-end is snake oil continuously belittle and refer to people who believe differently than them as lunatics, and insist that your crazy or imagining things if you even mention that such things matter.

DBX testing, I don't listen to my music under DBX conditions so I don't really care what the results of DBX tests are. As far as the people who make nonsensical claims that all amps sound the same or all CD players/DAC's sound the same I would like to ask you What are you frequenting an Audio related forum for? The only possible answer is to be a bunch of TROLLS.

 

[Yikes]

The other thing is if you can't hear the difference between various equipment (Usually with ascending prices) you should count yourself as lucky (Because you can get off cheaper) and stop pestering people who can hear the difference.

 

[ph0rk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif Second: There's to be NO DBX discussions. This thread should be closed.

The thread is currently in the sound science subforum, where DBT is free and legal!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif DBX testing, I don't listen to my music under DBX conditions so I don't really care what the results of DBX tests are. As far as the people who make nonsensical claims that all amps sound the same or all CD players/DAC's sound the same I would like to ask you What are you frequenting an Audio related forum for? The only possible answer is to be a bunch of TROLLS.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.

 

[royalcrown]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif First: The OP is a major Troll. First claiming a 650/Tandberg/Soundcard system, and the the next day it's magically a Stax/Shanling system. Which is it?

Uh... read his signature? Some people have more than one rig, you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif Second: There's to be NO DBX discussions. This thread should be closed.

Re-check what section of the forum you are in. ABX/DBT is allowed in this subsection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are a few soundcards that have decent quality DAC's and even half passable headphone outputs. Unfortunately they are stuck inside the Noisiest RF environment in the entire house. This is why going external with even very modest equipment yields audible improvements.

Any proof to that claim? All of the evidence points otherwise. Noise levels are exactly the same in my PCI version of the EMU 0404, if not ever so slightly better than its USB counterpart. See:

RightMark Audio Analyzer test : [MME] E-DSP Wave [EC00] PCI version

vs

RightMark Audio Analyzer test : E-MU 0404 USB loopback bal 16b 44k

Note the lower noise level in the PCI version, most likely due just to testing differences. For all practical purposes they're the same. The whole "internal=noise=worse" speculation has been proved wrong time and time again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif No one forces high end cables down anyones throats. Everyone saying that they are total snake oil are saying that IN Their Opinion they are. If a person had any sense at all once they get together a decent system they should borrow a few different High End Cables and give them a listen. If you hear a difference, and the difference is worth the price to you (Personal value judgment) then buy them, if not don't. There are entirely too many militant anti-high-end activists loitering around every audio forum. People who believe that cables and some other tweaks make worthwhile improvements in their systems tend to share the info and encourage others to try it. Whereas people who think everything high-end is snake oil continuously belittle and refer to people who believe differently than them as lunatics, and insist that your crazy or imagining things if you even mention that such things matter.

Perhaps skeptics call people crazy or schizophrenic, but cable believers have called me as well as many other people deaf, closed minded, stupid, lacking in common sense, tin eared, jealous, petty, and of having a POS rig. Insults come from both sides, and more importantly from rude people, not exclusively from one camp vs. another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif DBX testing, I don't listen to my music under DBX conditions so I don't really care what the results of DBX tests are. As far as the people who make nonsensical claims that all amps sound the same or all CD players/DAC's sound the same I would like to ask you What are you frequenting an Audio related forum for? The only possible answer is to be a bunch of TROLLS.

I can't speak for everyone, but I frequent an audio-related forum because it's fun. Not only have I learned about all sorts of new music, but I've also learned A LOT about how my rigs work. It's been a very educational experience for me, and I assume it's been so for many others as well. Plus, I'm a practical person: I only believe in allocating money where I can get a major return. Discovering that there are no audible differences between DACs has saved me a ton of money and has made finding the most neutral system a much easier process.

You really need to stop generalizing and lay off the accusations before fully reading both sides of the issue and thinking critically about the points each person made. Calling people trolls wantonly without even realizing that the OP might have had two headphone setups (especially when one is dynamic and one is electrostatic) comes off as a bit rude and careless.

 

[royalcrown]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yikes /img/forum/go_quote.gif The other thing is if you can't hear the difference between various equipment (Usually with ascending prices) you should count yourself as lucky (Because you can get off cheaper) and stop pestering people who can hear the difference.

My argument is a bit stronger. I don't think that anyone can actually hear the difference between certain equipment. I say this because we have instruments that are far more sensitive to differences in sound than ears, that can measure far more precisely and accurately, and they say that there are no differences between said equipment. It then seems to be that, when in a test format, nobody can actually pass a test of hearing ability. I'm just as skeptical of that as I am of a self-proclaimed genius that can't score beyond a 50% on a spelling test. There's a big difference between thinking you can hear a difference, proclaiming that you can hear a difference, and putting your money where your mouth is and actually taking a test to prove you can hear a difference (I'm using the generic you, and am not implicating anything about specific people). Of course, believers have nothing to prove to me, but by that same token I don't see how they can justify getting mad at me for demanding reasonable proof for an otherwise outlandish claim.

 

[haloxt]

Yikes, it's good to see someone in the sound science forum not bent on turning this place into the sound stupid forum. Can you please describe in more detail this anti-high-end phenomena? I'm not a Christian, but after reading some of these threads saying dac and amps (and soon headphones) are identical I can't help but recall what Christians say about strange things that would happen in the end of days. I find all this pseudointellectualism to be pretty unparalleled on my personal scale of weirdness. If Thomas Jefferson was alive today he would simply die, not because of private banks but because of the kind of logic people possess today.

 

[Yikes]

It's the old Subjectivist vs Objectivist debate. The inherent issue is that a Subjectivist is entirely about their own opinions about what they listen to. Whereas a Objectivist insists on having quantifiable proof, doesn't matter if they hear a difference, without quantifiable proof it had to be placebo effect.

To me demanding measurements to prove something is happening is silly. I don't listen to measurements, I listen to music. If I hear something I hear it. If what I hear is biased by the fact that I find the equipment attractive so be it, it's what I hear. The only issue here is that sometimes I like cheaper equipment, and sometime I like ugly equipment, so if my hearing is being influenced by external factors there is absolutely no consistency in how it's being influenced.

Objectivists also lack consistency. They demand measurements proving that there is a difference, but when actually given measurements that show that there is a difference they declare that those measurements don't count, humans can't possibly hear that well. They want to have it both ways.

You also seldom find subjectivists pushing their beliefs to the same extent as objectivists push theirs. It's because a subjectivist is discussing their opinions whereas an objectivist argues that they are pushing facts. When facts don't really come into play when discussing peoples opinions about what they hear.

Arguing that all DAC's sound the same is absurd. I own three different DAC's and they all sound different, and even non-audiophile friends can hear the difference. They can't understand why one is worth 10X the other but they do hear the difference. As I often tell people; you'll hear the difference, but I can't predict whether you'll think the difference is worth the price or not.

Oh... and I'm sorry. I don't know how I got to this thread. I remember when the creation of the Sound Science forum was discussed. I never had any interest in even glancing in it's direction. I somehow thought that all of this objectivist nonsense was in a general equipment forum, which is why I responded to the thread. So I'm sorry, please get back to your DBX or ABX or ABC or whatever you guys enjoy.