[scootermafia]

Knew that one would rile you all up!

There are some cheap balanced items that aren't worth owning. I don't think any $1200 single ended solid state amps can compete with the balanced output of the Phoenix. I think the gains in power and channel separation you get from balanced amps make it such that single ended (besides some of the nicer tube designs, WA5 etc) should be limited to low budget products, stuff <$1000. Apart from just blatantly bad designs, in general using separate copies of a certain configuration for left and right, keeping the two independent, helps keep left/right separate.

If you have a chain of expensive, well designed items of roughly the same budget, I think the setup that is balanced will have a competitive advantage. I'm not saying that all badly designed balanced items can instantly defeat a really nice piece of SE gear. But isn't most gear that is dual mono inside (or gear with dual power supplies) going to be inherently better at least in terms of channel separation than gear that mixes things up ? Balanced designs lend an advantage.

After hearing the gains I got from switching from Havana and M3 to DAC8/Ref1 and Phoenix, I have respect for the advantages of balanced designs.

 

[scootermafia]

I would like to praise the OP for getting HD800s rather than buying a $2k source and $2k amp for HD650s, or buying a mountain of crappy headphones, IEMs, and portable gear. Priority for everyone should be to build a HD800 (or whatever you consider the very best based on valid personal experience) system that is as nice as possible, so that you know what the pinnacle of sound that you can afford is. What's the point of head-fi but to strive for the best possible sound? Then, you can better decide what is a good portable system if you have need for it. A lot of people rant and rave about how great some puny amp is but have no perspective.

While there is seriously exotic SE gear, I don't think low priced (<$1500) SE designs can compete with well designed, but similarly affordable balanced gear. I think a Roc and a DAC9 is a better system than a Woo6 and a Paradisea for roughly the same money, it may be more liquidy with the tube system and pleasing to some - I know a fair handful of people that can't handle HD800s with SS gear, but I am not one of them. Anyway, try a Phoenix 1/4" jack vs. its 4-pin jack and get back to me on that one.

 

[Currawong]

I'd probably bet that many head-fiers consider "high end" to be the stage where you're spending an average of $1k or more on new components and headphones. Of course, DIY and vintage Stax throw all this out the window.

 

[Parafeed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scooterboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif However, in the Hi End audiophile world, the source is always important.

Of course, but analogue or digital source, it can still be high-end. I'm still not sure what you were alluding to with the comment? Why do we need to consider whether the source is analogue or digital? There are high-end examples of both. Please explain.

 

[Parafeed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you have a chain of expensive, well designed items of roughly the same budget, I think the setup that is balanced will have a competitive advantage.

At which point I bow out of this thread. That comment is more dumb than what you said earlier that only "balanced" is "high-end". Twattling on about left/right channels and dual mono power supplies - do you actually know anything about balanced signals, other than the crap you read on this forum?

 

[Parafeed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would like to praise the OP for getting HD800s rather than buying a $2k source and $2k amp for HD650

Oh sure, buy a high-end pair of phones and feed them with a low-end source via a low-end amp 'cause you blew the budget on the phones. Yes, that's great advice.

 

[scootermafia]

Do you honestly think HD650s with super nice gear sound better than HD800s with a lower priced, but still decent amp/dac? You get more listening enjoyment by getting the HD800s first.

 

[n3rdling]

I kinda agree with the "spend most on the best headphone you can afford" comment in most cases, but your balanced vs SE argument is a joke.

 

[Duggeh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you honestly think HD650s with super nice gear sound better than HD800s with a lower priced, but still decent amp/dac? You get more listening enjoyment by getting the HD800s first.

I could not possibly fail to disagree with you less with regard to your sentiment in this matter.

 

[The Monkey]

Funny how this is turning into an audio-gd thread.

 

[nikongod]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif Knew that one would rile you all up! There are some cheap balanced items that aren't worth owning. I don't think any $1200 single ended solid state amps can compete with the balanced output of the Phoenix. I think the gains in power and channel separation you get from balanced amps make it such that single ended (besides some of the nicer tube designs, WA5 etc) should be limited to low budget products, stuff <$1000. Apart from just blatantly bad designs, in general using separate copies of a certain configuration for left and right, keeping the two independent, helps keep left/right separate.

You do of course know that you made a broad and general statement on page one which does not agree with this.

Your arguments for channel separation go out the window once pseudo-dual mono (if not full dual mono) power supplies are considered several amplifiers can be had in the price range you put in this post which feature that. I cant comment on the amp you are plugging here as I have not heard it.

If you dont recall on page one you said this:
Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's good, but I don't consider any single-ended system to be high end.

You were kind enough to poke your argument in the eye by not including ANY criteria whatsoever. You simply said what you said there. Thats it. Backpedal much?

You have also not stated an opinion on any of the very real examples I gave, could you? come on! Not only are you backpedalling on your statement you are dodging someone challenging your statement! I predict some flip-flopping in the next post, its the next step after all.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif Funny how this is turning into an Scootermafia thread.

FTFY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccootermafia Do you honestly think HD650s with super nice gear sound better than HD800s with a lower priced, but still decent amp/dac? You get more listening enjoyment by getting the HD800s first.

Just because you believe this to be true, doesn't mean that everyone else should too.

 

[scootermafia]

I don't know much about tube amps, so there's not much I can say to your argument there. I simply think that designs with a mirror-image of parts for left and right are better, vs a board covered in random parts. I also believe in using 2 separately shielded 3-pin XLR cables for left/right going to the earcups of the HD800. Can't get any more separated than that.

Duggeh, I recall you sold your HD800s. What gear were you using with them? I guess it's hard to compete with your Stax.

I've tried HD650 with my Phoenix/DAC8/Diverter setup, balanced...versus my HD800s single ended with a mini amp/DAC. The HD800s don't sound as mind blowing as they do on the big setup, but they still sound like HD800s, and if I had to pick, I'd pick the under amped HD800s. HD650s sound like HD650s - pleasant but not especially detailed or transparent - regardless of what gear you use with them. So it's not prudent to overspend on them when you could be happy with HD800s and a cheaper amp as a stopgap. At least, that's what I would pick, having tried both.

 

[DarKu]

i'm sorry scootermafia but you are an fanboy
It's silly saing that your X 1200$ amp is better than an Y 1200$ amp, dont' start a flame war please. Also an WA6SE maxxed is 2000$. And as someone said some good SE amps sound as good or better than some balanced amps, i know some SE amps that are better than some Balanced amps for my ear, but that it is just me. Also some people will never give up on tubes and SS is not the only way to so called "high-end".
IMO high-end is when you don't want to upgrade anymore, not because of spending more money, but because for your ear, your system is marvelous sounding and you became ill of "one more song" sickness

 

[FrankCooter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't know much about tube amps.

Considering the statements you've been making throughout this thread, it looks like you don't know much about any type of amp. Or for that matter, even basic electronics. If you're going to going to make technical arguements, please back them up with engineering principles rather than subjectivist anecdotes.