[Currawong]

Another factor to consider (other than just the actual question) is the kind of "sound" you like. One thing that struck me was, for example, how much fun it was to listen to music through Elekit gear with my HD-800s. The rig I tried consisted of their CD player and HP amp, joined by "Radio Shack" grade cables. Sure it was lacking lots of detail and wasn't balanced (which, at least in my rig, throws a much greater soundstage and headstage) but I could listen with either rig all day.

I value micro detail, pin-point accuracy, flat frequency response (a lot of the time anyway) and all that in a rig, but I know that not everyone does, quite a bit of that having to do with music preferences. At least one manufacturer I know has two lines of solid state gear, one dead-neutral, and the other tuned via the circuit design to sound "tube-like", as the owner found two distinct preferences when it came to gear sound. I've noticed a similar thing here, along with divisions between acoustic and electronic music preferences, mids forward vs. recessed mids and possibly a few other interesting divisions that may explain much.

 

[scootermafia]

It's good, but I don't consider any single-ended system to be high end. The HD800 behave much differently through a good balanced amp with good balanced cables (read: not silver plated copper).

 

[Parafeed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif ....but I don't consider any single-ended system to be high end.

Really? That's one hell of a sweeping generalization!

 

[nikongod]

To the OP, I should clarify that if you like the sound, cool deal! I think its a little too easy to hear the flaws though. On that note, Id bet it still sounds quite nice

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's good, but I don't consider any single-ended system to be high end.

Does a differential amplifier running into a transformer with one end of the secondary grounded for safety & outputing on 1/4" pass? The output is obviously single ended as there is no way to get a balanced stereo signal through a single TRS plug.

That naturally brings us to the amplifier topology with 1 output triode and the secondary of the transformer center-tapped or perhaps just floated? inherently superior?

How about a "balanced" amplifier with no cross coupling between the 2 phases? Can you guarantee similar gain for the 2 phases? no? I see your argument crumbling!

Maybe the assertion that balanced is inherently superior, or that SE cant perform at a very high level is just inherently flawed. I like this guess the most.

 

[Parafeed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe the assertion that balanced is inherently superior, or that SE cant perform at a very high level is just inherently flawed.

Exactly! I'll take a "good" single ended setup over a "poor" balanced one any day of the week. The idea that only a balanced rig is a high-end one....... Well, that's funny!

PS. I'm not going to get into the "what constitutes balanced" argument. I do find it amusing that what would be considered "balanced" high-end tube amps use a transformer at the input to convert a balanced signal to a SE driver stage which is coupled to a SE output stage, with an output transformer secondary that is tied to earth, not via a CT, but one leg is grounded. Yep, that's balanced!

Ah, but it uses transformers.... It must be balanced....

 

[Scooterboy]

You will get a lot of opinions as to what constitutes a Hi End system. One reality that will have to be factored in is the the depth of your pockets.

Another thing to always consider is the source, whether its analog or digital.

 

[xiaobao0707]

hey as you've said, you like it. that's therefore high end

 

[Parafeed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scooterboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Another thing to always consider is the source, whether its analog or digital.

Eh? That makes about as much sense as the idea that "balanced" == "high-end".

 

[Clarkmc2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's good, but I don't consider any single-ended system to be high end.

Except when reading balanced HP threads on this very site, in fifty years of listening I have never seen any topology but Single Ended Class A to be considered having the best possible sound. From Nelson Pass, who's amps are recognized to be the best sounding solid state amps available:

Quote:

What Drives First Watt? The first watt from an audio amplifier is the most important watt, and amplifiers whose distortion declines with lower power tend to sound better. All other things being equal, a simpler circuit sounds better. So does an amplifier with little or no feedback. Class A operation results in higher quality than the other classes, and is well suited to simple low power amplifiers, partly because it has lower overall distortion and partly because the distortion is "monotonic" where the distortion decreases with level. It's easier to build high quality into a small amplifier than a big one, and people with sensitive speakers do not require or even want high power.

Dynamic headphones qualify as sensitive - very sensitive. Push-pull can be detailed all right, but it does have a third order harmonic character, which most find dissonant as compared to the SE second order character.

I am leaving out a lot in the way of explanation, but you get the idea.

Clark

 

[Orcin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiaobao0707 /img/forum/go_quote.gif hey as you've said, you like it. that's therefore high end

I understand your point and you are right from a personal perspective, but that's not really where I am going with this. I am only one opinion, and a somewhat inexperienced one at that. I am trying to get the opinions of people who have heard lots of good systems and have a basis for calling one "high-end" over another.

I appreciate comments like scootermafia's. His comment is drawing some flack, but he takes a position and draws his own dividing line. Basically, he says "no" because it's not balanced. So I know that he, and probably others, would say my system is not high-end and why. It might be a more narrow view than I would take, but certainly a valid and interesting opinion.

It is a discussion with no right answer. My own opinion is that my system is on the border of high-end. If I was pushed to decide one way or the other, I say it is high-end because the headphones push it over and the rest of the system supports them adequately.

I base this opinion on what I have heard at meets. I have heard systems that sound better. I have heard systems that sound a lot worse. But again, my experience is very limited so I am just curious about other points of view.

In the end, it doesn't matter to me at all. I have spent what I think is appropriate and feel that I received good value for it. If everyone here said it was not high-end, I would not run out and upgrade it for that reason. However, if a number of people said it was not high-end because of the DAC, then I might investigate alternate DACs because an upgrade might increase my enjoyment.

I probably wouldn't run out and re-purchase everything except the phones to go balanced simply because the investment is too big. But I might consider balanced in upgrading a DAC for example, because I could use it either way and perhaps eventually get to balanced without overspending all at once.

 

[Parafeed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I appreciate comments like scootermafia's. His comment is drawing some flack, but he takes a position and draws his own dividing line. Basically, he says "no" because it's not balanced.

By many peoples definition, (but not mine), any tube amp which has a transformer coupled output would qualify as having a balanced output. Let's say I take a $300 Chinese tube amp with crap output "iron" and add a pair of input transformers so I can feed it balanced. Fully balanced is it? High end, is it? Give me a break!

To say that an amp is not high-end unless it has a balanced input and balanced output, is stupid. Really stupid!

 

[thisbenjamin]

.

 

[Orcin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thisbenjamin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would add that I don't consider what you have high-end, sure you put a lot of money into your hardware I just don't personally like the sound of most of your choices.

Ahh, but I don't agree with this either. It's not about money or about whether you like it. I may not enjoy driving a Ferrari because I don't like sitting close to the ground. However, no one will argue that it is not a high-end automobile.

 

[thisbenjamin]

.

 

[Scooterboy]

Original Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooterboy
Another thing to always consider is the source, whether its analog or digital.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parafeed /img/forum/go_quote.gif Eh? That makes about as much sense as the idea that "balanced" == "high-end".

Yep I agree with you. If you are in the ipod world where you are coming from makes a lot of sense. However, in the Hi End audiophile world, the source is always important.