[SilentFrequency]

SilentFrequency. I have yet to here a high end amp. I can highly recommend the O2. I don't know if there is better out there but it's good enough for me with my 600's. You should be able to get a home trial so nothing to lose.

Thank you for your kind recommendation, I really appreciate it!

 

[krismusic]

If you do get round to hearing it let me know what you reckon.
I had the privilege of listening to Orpheus at a meet. I heard the 800's with the matching DAC/Amp and preferred it. I guess things have moved on. If I could justify the cost I would have bought the 800 combo. Lovely.

 

[SilentFrequency]

If you do get round to hearing it let me know what you reckon.
I had the privilege of listening to Orpheus at a meet. I heard the 800's with the matching DAC/Amp and preferred it. I guess things have moved on. If I could justify the cost I would have bought the 800 combo. Lovely.

Absolutely!

And now I know more about the Orpheus since we last spoke as I did some extra research into them I totally get why you say it was a privilege to listen to them

You probably already know, but there's talk of a new Sennheiser top line headphone upcoming rumoured to cost around $40-50k!!!

I honestly think that if that price is true then Sennheiser must have reinvented sound or something to justify that kind of price tag, but nontheless intriguing I guess?

 

[krismusic]

Ha ha. Reinvented sound. Sorry, I forgot I had mentioned it before. The Orpheus was 20k nearly 20 years ago. I applaud the idea of producing something that is at the pinnacle of what is possible. Only those with very deep pockets will become owners. For the rest of us just to get a listen will suffice. Happily I don't think that you need to spend megabucks to have superlative sound.

 

[Arttt]

sorry I stand corrected.
well there probably will be some laptops with a soundcard that can output enough for a hd800. it's really not the hardest headphone to drive. it might be a little extreme example, but I actually don't know much about soundcards specs. so I won't make any claim ^_^. 



Quote:
for both of you: it's all a matter of where you're looking at the sound. in your head, we have to take your own ears ability, your brain, and your own interpretations of some stimuli as space or tempo cues. it's at least right now impossible to measure and why you think sound is more than just pure objective values.

now if you want to measure the sound coming in the air at 1point, it's pretty simple, that's all about recording the air pressure changing across time at that one point. nothing else, there are no magical particles in the air, just vibration changing the pressure and making our eardrum to move a certain way.  the sound can bounce in all directions, it can come from 10speakers, the resulting sound at that one point will be the accumulated changes in air pressure, and so can be expressed with 1 unique pressure value.
you want it in stereo, just measure the pressure changes in 2 chosen points.  there really is nothing else, 1value for each ear changing in time.

and if you go back inside the audio gear itself, then in the analog part before the headphone, it is all about voltage changing with time. 1per ear. and really nothing more. voltage will translate in the amplitude of movement in the driver.
the need for the amp is to make sure left and right voltages don't mix too much, to keep a nice noise to signal ratio, and to be sure to provide enough current with the voltage to make the mechanical driver to behave as it should.
so making the headphone is a tremendously hard thing to do well. but providing the right voltage and current is actually not that hard for 1 particular headphone. and it's certainly not hard to estimate the needs for a headphone.

now if you go back to the digital parts (before the DAC up to the CD) what is sent is 1numerical value per side, changing in time. those are the samples in PCM streaming.

so you see, at any point except in your brain, music can be and is expressed with 1value changing in time. if there was more to it, then no record would be good enough. even DSD only records a voltage swing. same for a vinyl. so the sound becoming more complicated than that is really just distortion and noise.

that's what I believe, what many people believe and to put it simply, how any modern audio system is built. to deal with 1value changing with time for each channel. only 1! hard to lose science with that I tell you.

Thank you for information.
I Do not focus on the specifications of audio gear. Briefly, so...
My attention is on sound character, atmosphere it provides.

In my experience hd800 sounds different with each headphone amp I tryed it with, for good and worst. When it comes to driving hd800 I notice most comment on volume level, " had to max out volume on my laptop with hd800" or saying " on my iMac 60-70% of volume is enough"
I am not refering to loudness. It's details, background noise, soundstage, separation between instruments, refiment of the sound I refer to when I say " driving " hd800 properly, to its full potential.

Straight out of laptop headphone output hd800 sound thin, grainy, muddy, no dynamic to the sound, sound lacks body. ( I had tryed on laptops like MacBook Pro retina, Lenovo think pad , also on iMac and few other computers)
When proper amped, with a decent source, hd800 is a great headphone.
I am surprised anyone would dissagree, to me it's obvious.

I don't need measurements to hear that.
My ears will be the judge of the sound.

 

[bfreedma]

Thank you for information.
I Do not focus on the specifications of audio gear. Briefly, so...
My attention is on sound character, atmosphere it provides.

In my experience hd800 sounds different with each headphone amp I tryed it with, for good and worst. When it comes to driving hd800 I notice most comment on volume level, " had to max out volume on my laptop with hd800" or saying " on my iMac 60-70% of volume is enough"
I am not refering to loudness. It's details, background noise, soundstage, separation between instruments, refiment of the sound I refer to when I say " driving " hd800 properly, to its full potential.

Straight out of laptop headphone output hd800 sound thin, grainy, muddy, no dynamic to the sound, sound lacks body. ( I had tryed on laptops like MacBook Pro retina, Lenovo think pad , also on iMac and few other computers)
When proper amped, with a decent source, hd800 is a great headphone.
I am surprised anyone would dissagree, to me it's obvious.

I don't need measurements to hear that.
My ears will be the judge of the sound.

 
You still seem to be missing the purpose the Sound Science forums.....
 
At this point, what are you looking to achieve here?

 

[Arttt]

You still seem to be missing the purpose the Sound Science forums.....

At this point, what are you looking to achieve here?

I came to this forum because I believe sound science compliments this hobby of mine( listening to music), with useful information that would helpe me understand sound and the gear I use better.
in my first hand listening experience is evident that such claims as " any amp with enough voltage could drive hd800 to its full potential " or " amps make no difference in sound as long as they match voltage, current criteria of a headphone" are simply not true.

Post like " no difference between headphone output of laptop and amp like Auralic taurus for driving hd800" realy made me doubt how adequate people are here, is this forum for real, or there's mostly posers who done some reading and theoretical thinking, but never done any real science.
Real science always goes from theory to practice.

From now on I will ignore inexperienced people with low standards, who's focus on measurments only without actualy listening to the gear.
I hope to find information in this forum that got both first hand listening experience and science to compliment it.

 

[bfreedma]

You still seem to be missing the purpose the Sound Science forums.....

At this point, what are you looking to achieve here?

I came to this forum because I believe sound science compliments this hobby of mine( listening to music), with useful information that would helpe me understand sound and the gear I use better.
in my first hand listening experience is evident that such claims as " any amp with enough voltage could drive hd800 to its full potential " or " amps make no difference in sound as long as they match voltage, current criteria of a headphone" are simply not true.

Post like " no difference between headphone output of laptop and amp like Auralic taurus for driving hd800" realy made me doubt how adequate people are here, is this forum for real, or there's mostly posers who done some reading and theoretical thinking, but never done any real science.
Real science always goes from theory to practice.

From now on I will ignore inexperienced people with low standards, who's focus on measurments only without actualy listening to the gear.
I hope to find information in this forum that got both first hand listening experience and science to compliment it.

Have you considered that some/most of the members posting here know more about how amp technology actually works than the people you've spoken with to date?

Perhaps insulting then Sound Science community (again) isn't the best way get started here. I'm not a big fan of using the "Ignore" feature, but given the lack of value in reading insults....

 

[castleofargh]

From now on I will ignore inexperienced people with low standards, who's focus on measurments only without actualy listening to the gear.

 
you've shown all you're greatness in that one sentence. congrats.

 

[nick_charles]

I came to this forum because I believe sound science compliments this hobby of mine( listening to music), with useful information that would helpe me understand sound and the gear I use better.
in my first hand listening experience is evident that such claims as " any amp with enough voltage could drive hd800 to its full potential " or " amps make no difference in sound as long as they match voltage, current criteria of a headphone" are simply not true.

Post like " no difference between headphone output of laptop and amp like Auralic taurus for driving hd800" realy made me doubt how adequate people are here, is this forum for real, or there's mostly posers who done some reading and theoretical thinking, but never done any real science.
Real science always goes from theory to practice.

From now on I will ignore inexperienced people with low standards, who's focus on measurments only without actualy listening to the gear.
I hope to find information in this forum that got both first hand listening experience and science to compliment it.

 
If it is science you want I'll give you some useful info. First what you have here looks an awful lot like an Idée fixe - this is a term from Psychology. If you really had any true interest in anything like a scientific approach you would not be giving us gems like "no difference between headphone output of laptop and amp like Auralic taurus for driving hd800" realy made me doubt how adequate people are here" , instead you would ask "how has this hypothesis been tested" i.e has someone evaluated this statement, not dismissing it of hand because it does not fit in with your belief system that expensive/exotic must be better and hang the laws of physics. For your information this forum is full of people who have tested many of the (often outrageous) claims such as your implied claim in rigorous ways. For my own small part I have tested multiple cables both with measurements and with blind tests, I've tested my ability to detect differences between sources using blind tests and between different codecs. But your implied premise that you don't even need to listen to a laptop output and a high end amp because it is obvious that the high end amp will make the headphones sound better is solid head in the sand subjectivism. Why not get a pal to help with at least a level matched single blind test. There have been many proctored DBT that have suggested that amps once they manage a low level of distortion and noise and are not driven beyond their rated output are almost if not wholly indistinguishable even if A costs $200 and B costs $12000 as in the legendary Masters and Clark 1980s article.

 

[Greenears]

   
If it is science you want I'll give you some useful info. First what you have here looks an awful lot like an Idée fixe - this is a term from Psychology. If you really had any true interest in anything like a scientific approach you would not be giving us gems like "no difference between headphone output of laptop and amp like Auralic taurus for driving hd800" realy made me doubt how adequate people are here" , instead you would ask "how has this hypothesis been tested" i.e has someone evaluated this statement, not dismissing it of hand because it does not fit in with your belief system that expensive/exotic must be better and hang the laws of physics. For your information this forum is full of people who have tested many of the (often outrageous) claims such as your implied claim in rigorous ways. For my own small part I have tested multiple cables both with measurements and with blind tests, I've tested my ability to detect differences between sources using blind tests and between different codecs. But your implied premise that you don't even need to listen to a laptop output and a high end amp because it is obvious that the high end amp will make the headphones sound better is solid head in the sand subjectivism. Why not get a pal to help with at least a level matched single blind test. There have been many proctored DBT that have suggested that amps once they manage a low level of distortion and noise and are not driven beyond their rated output are almost if not wholly indistinguishable even if A costs $200 and B costs $12000 as in the legendary Masters and Clark 1980s article.

Thanks for your eloquent and well written explanation of the psychology of high-end audio.  I want to second everything you have said.
 
I would like to share for the OP my recent experience.  I consider myself savvy to the psychology of suggestion as it applies to audio and the value of ABX double blind testing.  I recently embarked on some ABX testing to see if I could detect 24bit vs 16bit.  The most interesting part was my reaction to one of the test tracks.  I downloaded the HDtracks sampler of about 10 tracks.  They were all good, but one immediately stood out, track2 which is the first 3 minutes of Vivaldi's Spring.  Immediately the first 5 bars of the 24 bit struck me as awesome, dynamic, live with presence that I thought was something else beyond the ordinary.  Despite coming in skeptical about 24 bit, I admit I was captivated.  There was a "certain something" I was sure.  
 
Needless to say in the actual ABX tests it is very hard to reliably separate the 24 from 16.  It is not over, I might be able to do it slightly, but it is very close thing.  Nothing like 8 or 9 out of 10, maybe 6 out of 10 where 5 out of 10 is coin flipping.   Things I heard at first I was "sure" were so much better in 24 are actually there in the 16, like bass, echo etc.  
 
I have learned more about the psychology of listening than 24 bit quite frankly, and it's an eye opener.  You're talking to someone with 18+ years history with this stuff and a strong technical background.  If you're honest with yourself and keep an open mind, you can learn some very interesting things.  I strongly recommend everyone to do some ABX testing if you spend any amount of time and money on this hobby, just for the fun of it.  I find it fascinating. 

 

[SilentFrequency]

From now on I will ignore inexperienced people with low standards, who's focus on measurments only without actualy listening to the gear.
I hope to find information in this forum that got both first hand listening experience and science to compliment it.

I find that totally unnecessary and unhelpful

Have you considered what you state could actually be suggested to you for making such comment firstly?

 

[MIKELAP]

Ha ha. Reinvented sound.

Sorry, I forgot I had mentioned it before. The Orpheus was 20k nearly 20 years ago. I applaud the idea of producing something that is at the pinnacle of what is possible. Only those with very deep pockets will become owners. For the rest of us just to get a listen will suffice. Happily I don't think that you need to spend megabucks to have superlative sound.

To start with i think i have decent gear ,which i like alot and sounds great to me, last year for the first time i had the oppertunity to go to an audio meet in Montreal since i like Woo amps i went in there room sat down and took a listen to a WA5 with a pair of Abyss headphones i was saying to myself OMG this is going to be great i start listening and thats when i realized  that upgraditist was over for me i was expecting something extra ,well  actually more than extra  for that price  what i got is more of the same ,great sound mind you but were talking $4000.00 or $5000.00 headphones your probably thinking that it wasnt upgraded tubes in there ,meet conditions and all of that , after i had that revelation i tried Stax HP and a few other big expensive rigs same thing .You know, i dont like being taken for a ride and bottom line is finally i dont need that 5% that i cant hear anyways .But that's me