[PurpleFury]

I must say I'm really into the Kennerton Gjallarhorn. Their design just speaks to me, even though I know it shouldn't matter but I'm only human.

What is the JM edition? Anyone know of a swedish retailer?

I have found the Kennerton Vali in a store.

I know they are open but I'm not sure I care anymore
There seem to be a lot more options.

 

[Strayngs]

JM edition is a bit more neutral. The regular edition has more bass.

 

[Strayngs]

Vali and M12 I haven't had the privilege to hear.

 

[JDFlood]

@Strayngs

I am not familiar with your equipment. But think about it. Both Sennheiser and Focal have made all out attempts at perfect reproduction of the input signal. So, if given the same input signal, shouldn’t they sound very similar? How could one sound more trebly? They did something wrong. Same with the bass. The imaging and sound staging is going to be a little different because of the difference in openness of the physical space. This reminds me of solid state versus tubed preamps over the last fifty years. They used to sound a lot different (at the high end), that difference has been reduced more and more over the years until it is minuscule. There is convergence on correctly reproducing the source.

 

[Strayngs]

@Strayngs

I am not familiar with your equipment. But think about it. Both Sennheiser and Focal have made all out attempts at perfect reproduction of the input signal. So, if given the same input signal, shouldn’t they sound very similar? How could one sound more trebly? They did something wrong. Same with the bass. The imaging and sound staging is going to be a little different because of the difference in openness of the physical space. This reminds me of solid state versus tubed preamps over the last fifty years. They used to sound a lot different (at the high end), that difference has been reduced more and more over the years until it is minuscule. There is convergence on correctly reproducing the source.

We will have to agree to disagree. These 2 headphones have completely different technology. By nature, their characteristics are not going to sound the same. Just like a ribbon tweeter sounds a lot different then dome tweeter on a speaker. I believe you that on your $10-15K system they sound the same.... you have ears...however, to generalize that any high end system with a lot of quality power will make these different headphones sound similar doesnt make sense to me. On my carefully selected $22K system....they sound significantly different. Quite frankly, if a high end system made all high end headphones sound the same, collectors would have no reason to have more than one pair of headphones. I am glad that my 4 high end headphones sound different enough from each other!

 

[PurpleFury]

So lets have a little update with the information I have been given in this thread.

I'm looking for new high end (at least for me) headphones to go with my flac collection.

I play my music from my phone with the dragonfly cobalt. Today I have sennheiser momentum wireless m2 in passive mode.

I mostly listen to soul/funk and classic rock.
Prince, Frank Zappa etc

I also sometimes listen to live bootlegs.

I first wanted closed headphones but I'm not sure about that anymore. Many seems to think open back is absolutely vital.

I have read reviews and information about a couple of headphones and this is my list of choices for now:

Kennerton Gjallarhorn/Vali/M12s

Beyerdynamic - DT 1990 pro

HarmonicdyneZeus

I want them to play well with the equipment I currently own.

Any thoughts of experience on this?

Thank U

 

[gimmeheadroom]

DT1990 need a real amp. I don't know anything about the other two.

 

[PurpleFury]

DT1990 need a real amp. I don't know anything about the other two.

Ok , I think the Kennertons are easy driven....

 

[Strayngs]

Ok , I think the Kennertons are easy driven....

the Gjallarhorn are. My amps were way too powerful for it. It sounded best out of my LG V60 phone. I loved it. I only sold it to help fund the new closed back Kennerton Rognir!

 

[JDFlood]

@Strayngs
”THe sum of the story is they both sound amazing fed with high end stuff....I just find it fascinating that your system makes them them sound so similar And in mine they are so different.”

Yes, both headphones do sound amazing. When I swapped the headphones around all the different amps I have (about 6) they all brought out the differences in sound that are typically documented in reviews. This similarity between headphones only happened when moving to the WA5 on my headphone system (a similar effect occurred when I switched to an Audio Reseach 160s on my main system). Since both headphones use relatively similar technology (as opposed to ribbon, for instance) i think high divergence is less likely. The midrange bloom and high current of the Woo amp may cover up the “fast slam” of the Focals. I have long thought that the lack of rich midrange in many solid state amps causes an artificially high contrast between the midrange content and bass... showing up as overemphasis on the fast rise in bass or “slam”. My current thinking is this is actually somewhat unnatural... in real venues arrival times of kick drums or heavy bass lines have a wider frequency distribution. This is open to alternative interpretations of course... but this is what I hear in the real world as well, and really good tube amplification has a rich midrange bloom... more so than abrupt slam with thin midrange. My Audio Research Reference 160s does this with my main system in exactly the same way. So, to me this is telling me what I am feeding the headphones is pretty close to what is ideal to reproduce realistic sound reproduction and makes the Focal sound more real that they might with alternative amplification. This midrange bloom also balances out the ”treblyness“ of the 800s. I have found thin / highly detailed sounding electronics tend to accentuate differences in transducers, frequently artificially. After decades with electrostatic and ribbon speakers I realized that keeping the signal elevated in the high frequency and lean in the midrange creates some really magical effects but at the expense of the musical whole. The systems I have now are much more natural sounding... the details are al there, but not lite up as if by a spotlight. I have attended the symphony religiously for ten years and listened very carefully to the arrival times of various reflections and the frequency distributions of oncoming waves of bass. Also, in small jazz groups etc. When I really listen to many systems I hear a lot of this thin midrange and accentualted high end, it‘s sound is interesting but is really getting in the way of the music. This isn’t intended to be a case for only tubes... but I think it is really easier to get there with them... still.

Hmm, perhaps I should quit now before I get too deep into this.

I will have to listen to my LCD2 and BeyerdynamicT1’s but these aren’t really in the same class of fidelity. Unfortunately, I lent out my Aurender.. so I will have to wait a couple of weeks to do the comparison.

 

[PurpleFury]

@Strayngs
”THe sum of the story is they both sound amazing fed with high end stuff....I just find it fascinating that your system makes them them sound so similar And in mine they are so different.”

Yes, both headphones do sound amazing. When I swapped the headphones around all the different amps I have (about 6) they all brought out the differences in sound that are typically documented in reviews. This similarity between headphones only happened when moving to the WA5 on my headphone system (a similar effect occurred when I switched to an Audio Reseach 160s on my main system). Since both headphones use relatively similar technology (as opposed to ribbon, for instance) i think high divergence is less likely. The midrange bloom and high current of the Woo amp may cover up the “fast slam” of the Focals. I have long thought that the lack of rich midrange in many solid state amps causes an artificially high contrast between the midrange content and bass... showing up as overemphasis on the fast rise in bass or “slam”. My current thinking is this is actually somewhat unnatural... in real venues arrival times of kick drums or heavy bass lines have a wider frequency distribution. This is open to alternative interpretations of course... but this is what I hear in the real world as well, and really good tube amplification has a rich midrange bloom... more so than abrupt slam with thin midrange. My Audio Research Reference 160s does this with my main system in exactly the same way. So, to me this is telling me what I am feeding the headphones is pretty close to what is ideal to reproduce realistic sound reproduction and makes the Focal sound more real that they might with alternative amplification. This midrange bloom also balances out the ”treblyness“ of the 800s. I have found thin / highly detailed sounding electronics tend to accentuate differences in transducers, frequently artificially. After decades with electrostatic and ribbon speakers I realized that keeping the signal elevated in the high frequency and lean in the midrange creates some really magical effects but at the expense of the musical whole. The systems I have now are much more natural sounding... the details are al there, but not light Up by spotlight. I have attended the symphony religiously for ten years and listened very carefully to the arrival times of various reflections and the frequency distributions of oncoming waves of bass. Also, in small jazz groups etc. when I really listen a lot of this thin midrange and accentualted high end is interesting but is really getting in the way of the music. This isn’t intended to be a case for only tubes... but I think it is really easier to get there with them... still.

Hmm, perhaps I should quit now before I get too deep into this.

I will have to listen to my LCD2 and BeyerdynamicT1’s but these aren’t really in the same class of fidelity. Unfortunately, I lent out my Aurender.. so I will have to wait a couple of weeks to do the comparison.

I think your equipment is worth more than my house.... and as much as I would like I can't compete. I really just want a good upgrade on my Sennheisers.

 

[PurpleFury]

I get that this is a forum for enthusiasts and maybe my question isn't "nerdy" enough

I got the AQ cobalt second hand and was pretty happy about it. It made my music sound better but my sennheisers are wireless with flexibility.
I want new headphones that are specialist in music.

I get the feeling that most of the headphones I'm looking at need more amping and maybe in the future I can get me a special place in my house for listening to music, but not at the moment. (Think my wife would kill me)

Maybe my sennheisers are good enough for me with my cobalt until I can get at another amp?
Any thoughts?

Thank U

 

[539465]

I get that this is a forum for enthusiasts and maybe my question isn't "nerdy" enough

I got the AQ cobalt second hand and was pretty happy about it. It made my music sound better but my sennheisers are wireless with flexibility.
I want new headphones that are specialist in music.

I get the feeling that most of the headphones I'm looking at need more amping and maybe in the future I can get me a special place in my house for listening to music, but not at the moment. (Think my wife would kill me)

Maybe my sennheisers are good enough for me with my cobalt until I can get at another amp?
Any thoughts?

Thank U

Hey PurpleFury I have basically quit this forum I am pretty intoxicated as I am celebrating something for business and have already typed this and had it destroyed so I will be brief as I think there needs to be some clarification of what people really mean when they relay the "it needs a good AMP" sentiment to you. Look into my signature and see I own the Bas X A-100 which is a 50W speaker amp (most headphone sensitivity are rated as mW or 1/1000watts per X(or n for number)db... if a headphone has a 100+ db sensitivity it means it will be "loud" possibly loud enough to damage your hearing at 1 mW my amp depending on the resistance or ohms rating of headphone can do up to 50,000 mW or as low as 600mW) it is designed to push 7 inch+ drivers so a 100mm(about normal for headphone) driver is a piece of cake! it's ~$250ish shipped and is HUUUUUGE but what people are referring to IS NOT power... My $170 Launch Edition iFi Zen(please note Zen part of lineup means bottom tier; this is important later for comparing to the Bas X which has more power) CAN sounds BETTER! because it has more detail and more resolution hands down in addition to being quite small.... SO why do I own both... So my first headphone was the DT990, this is a great example because they come in different ohm measurements (not to convolute this too much but for this headphone the higher ohm rating sounds better, this is the exception not the rule because MOST headphone do not have different ohm ratings you can purchase them for and most WILL NOT go up to 600 ohm) from 80 to 250 to 600.... So while my Zen CAN needs FULL POWER to drive or sufficiently power the lesser DT990 headphone loud enough (they mean the same thing; drive = properly power) my insane speaker AMP can do it with EASE!...

So let's chill out this is a lot of info I suggest you re-read but let's get to the main point.... What people are MOSTLY telling you is that because one amp, despite having less power has more detail and resolution(to TL: DR different amps can affect sound but usually for the price the headphone is 90-95% of the sound and the amp affects the rest 5-10%) if I were to use my DT1990 (different from the older and cheaper DT990 just to point that out) which is only 250ohm and both amps can drive properly with the more POWERFUL Bas X A-100 I would gain NOTHING vs using it with my Zen CAN and infact paying MORE I would receive less or not the full benefit of the DT1990...

This is were my previous statements on getting a purpose build portable amp vs a used desktop amp that happens to have a portable option comes in....
1. for the price I paid for my Bas X A-100 there will NOT be a more POWERFUL amp you can purchase for SPECIAL headphones like the 600ohm(more ohm just = harder to drive/ needs more power, you will NOT need this much power)
2. The purpose build portable amp I own the Fiio A5 which had a MSRP of $170 and cost around $100 used/open box WILL NOT be as good for your purpose as a $100 desktop amp which WILL have more detail/resolution and allow you to access more % of a headphone like the DT1990 which doesn't need so much power but has more detail/resolution if the amp can provide it(basically using a lesser amp like Fiio A5 vs many $100 cheaper desktop amp's you lose some of the potential of the headphone you bought)
3. The iFi Zen CAN at $170 MSRP and being a high quality desktop amp will outperform the other two I own even if the price is the same or more

So let's loop back around to why I am recommending you to buy a USED iFi AMP for around $200(preferably one with a MSRP of $300-500).... These amps are more similar to the Zen CAN then to the Bas X A-100 or the Fiio A5. They are Desktop AMPS that happen to have a portable feature! That is important because they have ENOUGH power and ENOUGH portability to do the job that any other amp have for your specific needs and more importantly they will allow you to access much more detail/resolution and other features of a headphone than either other option will allow if you are spending $300+ for a headphone which you deserve, everyone deserved good audio quality....

None of the headphone you want to buy need more power -> you will likely pay at least $100 anyway for even a lesser and more portable AMP -> the used higher cost iFi's are a good balance between quality/portability/power for at most around a $100+ premium vs a Fiio E12/A5 which has close to the same power if you are a bit patient and buy used....

I can also promise you for AMP's like a used iFi while you cannot make smaller you can "upgrade" for under $50 with an external power supply and adapters to add additional battery life to the AMP, if you need any more help I will be here and I hope this was all understandable and concise enough to help (in reality there are a few things that don't really matter but I would love to have elaborated on; yeah it's kind of complicated lol)

If you have any questions you prefer to ask me go ahead and I will respond ASAP

 

[PurpleFury]

Hey PurpleFury I have basically quit this forum I am pretty intoxicated as I am celebrating something for business and have already typed this and had it destroyed so I will be brief as I think there needs to be some clarification of what people really mean when they relay the "it needs a good AMP" sentiment to you. Look into my signature and see I own the Bas X A-100 which is a 50W speaker amp (most headphone sensitivity are rated as mW or 1/1000watts per X(or n for number)db... if a headphone has a 100+ db sensitivity it means it will be "loud" possibly loud enough to damage your hearing at 1 mW my amp depending on the resistance or ohms rating of headphone can do up to 50,000 mW or as low as 600mW) it is designed to push 7 inch+ drivers so a 100mm(about normal for headphone) driver is a piece of cake! it's ~$250ish shipped and is HUUUUUGE but what people are referring to IS NOT power... My $170 Launch Edition iFi Zen(please note Zen part of lineup means bottom tier; this is important later for comparing to the Bas X which has more power) CAN sounds BETTER! because it has more detail and more resolution hands down in addition to being quite small.... SO why do I own both... So my first headphone was the DT990, this is a great example because they come in different ohm measurements (not to convolute this too much but for this headphone the higher ohm rating sounds better, this is the exception not the rule because MOST headphone do not have different ohm ratings you can purchase them for and most WILL NOT go up to 600 ohm) from 80 to 250 to 600.... So while my Zen CAN needs FULL POWER to drive or sufficiently power the lesser DT990 headphone loud enough (they mean the same thing; drive = properly power) my insane speaker AMP can do it with EASE!...

So let's chill out this is a lot of info I suggest you re-read but let's get to the main point.... What people are MOSTLY telling you is that because one amp, despite having less power has more detail and resolution(to TL: DR different amps can affect sound but usually for the price the headphone is 90-95% of the sound and the amp affects the rest 5-10%) if I were to use my DT1990 (different from the older and cheaper DT990 just to point that out) which is only 250ohm and both amps can drive properly with the more POWERFUL Bas X A-100 I would gain NOTHING vs using it with my Zen CAN and infact paying MORE I would receive less or not the full benefit of the DT1990...

This is were my previous statements on getting a purpose build portable amp vs a used desktop amp that happens to have a portable option comes in....
1. for the price I paid for my Bas X A-100 there will NOT be a more POWERFUL amp you can purchase for SPECIAL headphones like the 600ohm(more ohm just = harder to drive/ needs more power, you will NOT need this much power)
2. The purpose build portable amp I own the Fiio A5 which had a MSRP of $170 and cost around $100 used/open box WILL NOT be as good for your purpose as a $100 desktop amp which WILL have more detail/resolution and allow you to access more % of a headphone like the DT1990 which doesn't need so much power but has more detail/resolution if the amp can provide it(basically using a lesser amp like Fiio A5 vs many $100 cheaper desktop amp's you lose some of the potential of the headphone you bought)
3. The iFi Zen CAN at $170 MSRP and being a high quality desktop amp will outperform the other two I own even if the price is the same or more

So let's loop back around to why I am recommending you to buy a USED iFi AMP for around $200(preferably one with a MSRP of $300-500).... These amps are more similar to the Zen CAN then to the Bas X A-100 or the Fiio A5. They are Desktop AMPS that happen to have a portable feature! That is important because they have ENOUGH power and ENOUGH portability to do the job that any other amp have for your specific needs and more importantly they will allow you to access much more detail/resolution and other features of a headphone than either other option will allow if you are spending $300+ for a headphone which you deserve, everyone deserved good audio quality....

None of the headphone you want to buy need more power -> you will likely pay at least $100 anyway for even a lesser and more portable AMP -> the used higher cost iFi's are a good balance between quality/portability/power for at most around a $100+ premium vs a Fiio E12/A5 which has close to the same power if you are a bit patient and buy used....

I can also promise you for AMP's like a used iFi while you cannot make smaller you can "upgrade" for under $50 with an external power supply and adapters to add additional battery life to the AMP, if you need any more help I will be here and I hope this was all understandable and concise enough to help (in reality there are a few things that don't really matter but I would love to have elaborated on; yeah it's kind of complicated lol)

If you have any questions you prefer to ask me go ahead and I will respond ASAP

Hello

So my "problem" is I read alot of reviews on the AQ dragonfly cobalt with stunning reviews and all the reviews said it can easily drive heavier headphones.

Then I came by a used one and asked around about if my sennheisers would benefit from it, and I got the answer probably not.

I still think there is a improvement an I love listening but I get curious about what an upgrade on my sennheisers (that wouldnt benefit much) do for me.

Then most people here say I need another AMP.
What is the purpose of the Cobalt?
Do I need a amp to work with the cobalt or can I just throw it?

I have little AMP called a Topping NX3 but I thought the Cobalt would do the job?

Feels like I'm stuck in a limbo.

I love listening to music but I'm on a familyman budget

Its like when you get into the picture quality circus, you miss the movie but you see the picture and all you can consecrate on is the dead pixel that disturbing you.

I wanna enjoy the music I fell in love with. Listen tom my favourite records in remastered 24-bit resolution.

Do you get my point of view?

My perspective has changed i went in looking at hd800s but now I'm looking at the Kennerton Gjallarhorn as my favourite, and thats without listening to either of them.

Really thank you for taking time to explain.

//Fabbe

 

[539465]

Hello

So my "problem" is I read alot of reviews on the AQ dragonfly cobalt with stunning reviews and all the reviews said it can easily drive heavier headphones.

Then I came by a used one and asked around about if my sennheisers would benefit from it, and I got the answer probably not.

I still think there is a improvement an I love listening but I get curious about what an upgrade on my sennheisers (that wouldnt benefit much) do for me.

Then most people here say I need another AMP.
What is the purpose of the Cobalt?
Do I need a amp to work with the cobalt or can I just throw it?

I have little AMP called a Topping NX3 but I thought the Cobalt would do the job?

Feels like I'm stuck in a limbo.

I love listening to music but I'm on a familyman budget

Its like when you get into the picture quality circus, you miss the movie but you see the picture and all you can consecrate on is the dead pixel that disturbing you.

I wanna enjoy the music I fell in love with. Listen tom my favourite records in remastered 24-bit resolution.

Do you get my point of view?

My perspective has changed i went in looking at hd800s but now I'm looking at the Kennerton Gjallarhorn as my favourite, and thats without listening to either of them.

Really thank you for taking time to explain.

//Fabbe

The cobalt is a DAC mainly not an AMP my Emotive Little ego is mainly a DAC with a bit of an AMP but it is NOT an amp..... even my dedicated Fiio A5 cannot drive the 6XX to full volume you will need around 100-200mW @ whatever ohm your headphone is.... for 58X this is 150ohm for 6XX this is 300 ohm and this is a big difference.