[grokit]

 
Quote:

Playing the Devils Advocate here.
 
So what is better?
 
A Capitalistic society were people go off to their 9 to 5's everyday.
 
-or-
 
A society were people farmed had trades etc. and bartered or traded for what they needed.

 
If you trade your Valab NOS DAC for some cabbages I'm growing in my garden I'll go with the barter society. I'm planning a bumper crop this year 

 

[TheDreamthinker]

Your life will be filled with even more empty and unfulfilling without a job.
Say have an infinite sum of money, with what will you fill your time?
 
things most people would do:
 
-shopping
-drinking
-watching TV....becoming fat
-sleeping
-lurking around Head-Fi.org
and
-SEX (a great deal of it....every night = One-Night-Stand)
 
....I personally can't stay 2 weeks without work (or something meaningful to do), i become depressed, miserable, etc. 

 

[logwed]

Quote:

Wow you seem pretty smart!
 
What type of degree do you have??
 
I'm going to have to look up this Malthus....hope I can understand it.
 
You sure about the colonizing planet thing....which planets do you think??
 

I'm just a student, aerospace engineering major. So far as the planets are concerned, I think that we could figure out how to colonize Venus and Mars, being that they're the most Earth-like in terms of size and distance from the sun. However, I do think that the solar system is the limit to the area that our species can thrive in. A colony around another star could never stay in contact with solar humans, thinking that the nearest star is more than a light year away, even colonizing around that star (which has not yet been observed to have planets) would take hundreds if not thousands of years to reach by some sort of ship, and then communication would take years for each exchange, even at the speed of light (though the idea of the Ansible from Ender's Game is really cool, idk if it is possible/practical. We don't know that much about paired particles yet). Any extrasolar humans would be entirely separated from solar human beings, for all practical purposes an entirely different race or species.
 
I don't think that it's all that crazy to think that we'll put a colony on Venus/Mars in 100-150 years. Just think that not even 600 years ago, Western civilization (arguably the most advanced at the time) did not even know that the Americas existed! The ocean might as well have been their equivalent for what outer space is to us. Exploration led to exploitation led to colonization led to trade led to nationhood. I definitely think the process is analogous to what will happen with our solar system, given technological advancements and the inevitable need for more space.

 

[appophylite]

Quote:

Playing the Devils Advocate here.
 
So what is better?
 
A Capitalistic society were people go off to their 9 to 5's everyday.
 
-or-
 
A society were people farmed had trades etc. and bartered or traded for what they needed.

As someone who has tried to help his parents and sister grow a vegetable garden every year in the backyard, and has failed at achieving anything better than a 30% yield, I'd say I'm glad we are no longer an agrarian society. I'd have starved a long time ago. And even though I could easily perform another trade and barter services for food, I'm dependent on someone else to satisfy my needs for food.
 
It's funny though, in my experience, the people who seem to tout a return to the agrarian/barter/trading society tend to be the same people who are completely unprepared to realize what that truly means. I have a friend who is as much the modern consumer as anyone else, and he is always saying we need to return to village life - get back to nature, enjoy the simplicity of life and get away from the modern hustle-and-bustle. He is also the same member of our group who refuses to go camping with the rest of us on principle of its dirty and unpleasant, refuses to go boating because its too much work, has never tried to grow a garden before (they currently live in a community that has a community groundskeeper), has no idea how to do woodwork, metalwork or plumbing of any sort etc. Personally, I'm of the belief that if we returned to an agrarian society, most of my group of friends (including myself) would be in dire trouble, but the first to succumb would definitely be that one.
 
In any case, speaking for myself alone, I love what we have in our society today and all the benefits it has to offer. If working an 8-5 job every day is the price to pay for it, so be it.
 

 

[logwed]

Appophylite, do you ever think what you'd do if there were ever some sort of an event that wiped out 99% of the population? It's something that I rather enjoy doing, and it's always weird to realize that while I may be relatively smart in this society, it is only because I am able to utilize all the tools and luxuries developed by those who lived before us. If I had to fend for myself, I don't know how to hunt, I would not be able to make effective tools, I do not know how to farm, etc. While I would be able to figure out how to use what was left by humanity, I think that once all the tools broke, once all the gas ran out, when a blight hit, humanity would simply die. I don't know that any people have the ability to survive without modern conveniences, and I don't know that we'd be able to create or fix any of the tools that we need.

 

[Dynobot]

Interesting....I respect your opinion.
 
However I do not totally agree.
 
Quote:

I'm just a student, aerospace engineering major. So far as the planets are concerned, I think that we could figure out how to colonize Venus and Mars, being that they're the most Earth-like in terms of size and distance from the sun. However, I do think that the solar system is the limit to the area that our species can thrive in. A colony around another star could never stay in contact with solar humans, thinking that the nearest star is more than a light year away, even colonizing around that star (which has not yet been observed to have planets) would take hundreds if not thousands of years to reach by some sort of ship, and then communication would take years for each exchange, even at the speed of light (though the idea of the Ansible from Ender's Game is really cool, idk if it is possible/practical. We don't know that much about paired particles yet). Any extrasolar humans would be entirely separated from solar human beings, for all practical purposes an entirely different race or species.
 
I don't think that it's all that crazy to think that we'll put a colony on Venus/Mars in 100-150 years. Just think that not even 600 years ago, Western civilization (arguably the most advanced at the time) did not even know that the Americas existed! The ocean might as well have been their equivalent for what outer space is to us. Exploration led to exploitation led to colonization led to trade led to nationhood. I definitely think the process is analogous to what will happen with our solar system, given technological advancements and the inevitable need for more space.

 

 

[logwed]

Quote:

Interesting....I respect your opinion.
 
However I do not totally agree.
 

What parts do you disagree with?
 

 

[Dynobot]

Quote:

As someone who has tried to help his parents and sister grow a vegetable garden every year in the backyard, and has failed at achieving anything better than a 30% yield, I'd say I'm glad we are no longer an agrarian society. I'd have starved a long time ago. And even though I could easily perform another trade and barter services for food, I'm dependent on someone else to satisfy my needs for food.
 
It's funny though, in my experience, the people who seem to tout a return to the agrarian/barter/trading society tend to be the same people who are completely unprepared to realize what that truly means. I have a friend who is as much the modern consumer as anyone else, and he is always saying we need to return to village life - get back to nature, enjoy the simplicity of life and get away from the modern hustle-and-bustle. He is also the same member of our group who refuses to go camping with the rest of us on principle of its dirty and unpleasant, refuses to go boating because its too much work, has never tried to grow a garden before (they currently live in a community that has a community groundskeeper), has no idea how to do woodwork, metalwork or plumbing of any sort etc. Personally, I'm of the belief that if we returned to an agrarian society, most of my group of friends (including myself) would be in dire trouble, but the first to succumb would definitely be that one.
 
In any case, speaking for myself alone, I love what we have in our society today and all the benefits it has to offer. If working an 8-5 job every day is the price to pay for it, so be it.
 

LOL...yes boating is a lot of work.  I owned a boat for over 10 years, its a lot of work and money.
 
I also grew/grow fruits and vegetables, lets say for that past 38 years or so.  Its not easy either.
 
I am an Automotive / Mechanical designer by trade so maybe that gives me an edge in all things mechanical in nature.  I built cars from the frame up at the age of 16, changed my first full car exhaust system at age 11 and designed the engine mounts for the 88 T'Bird at age 20...it was my first job at Ford Motor Company.
 
You are right, if an agrarian society did appear due to some circumstance much of America would die away pretty quickly.  If not from starvation then from violence.
 
Thanks for your input.

 

[Dynobot]

 

Quote:

 
If you trade your Valab NOS DAC for some cabbages I'm growing in my garden I'll go with the barter society. I'm planning a bumper crop this year 

No thanks...I am growing some Korean cabbages myself this year.  Hope to make some Kimchi out of them.
 
Growing in Georgia is a lot worse than growing in Michigan, the soil here sucks...and the climate is really hard on crops.
 
Hope to be growing some crops in Japan in a few years.  They have great soil and a good climate.
 

 

[logwed]

Quote:

Hope to be growing some crops in Japan in a few years.  They have great soil and a good climate.
 

But alas, they have no geographic area
 

 

[Dynobot]

Quote:

But alas, they have no geographic area
 

Oh really??
 
Have you been to Japan too??
 
Wow, smart and well traveled.
 
I have only been about 15 times myself my wife being Japanese.  We go back a lot to see the family and sight see around the country.  Here is one of the many farm lands in the country side close to Fukuoka. Perhaps when you visit you stay in the city.
 

 

 

[logwed]

I went to Japan once to visit my uncle in the navy, admittedly did not really get out of the city areas. I just remember how crowded it was! Do they grow a lot of their own food there? I can't imagine that they'd be able to support their population based entirely on food from the country. Fresh produce perhaps, but I doubt that they can grow enough staple crops.
 
And 15 times to Japan! Very cool stuff, man.

 

[appophylite]

Logwed: Personally, I believe that there are people who would be better off towards surviving such an occurence. Like you, it is something I've thought about often and often times, and I agree that we have many people in today's society who can be labeled smart, but then if one digs a little deeper, one could see that many of these people would be ill equipped to survive in a post-apocalyptic environment or a return-to-the-past type society. Look at myself for example:
 
I'm terrible at gardening = likely be unable to develop enough land to sustain enough growth of food crops to sustain my little old self.
I have no real skills at metal working, woodworking, etc - exactly the kind of skills that would be beneficial to building shelter/tools, etc
I can handle guns, knives quite well, though I only own knives. That said, I have no real ability to make bullets so when I run out of bullets, any guns I have are useless, and in any case, I've never been a good hunter/fisher so that would likely be another failed attempt at cultivating food.
 
I could go on and on with a list of my shortcomings, but as you said, if any and every person who lives in modern society made such a list, I'm sure most will realize how truly ill-equipped they are to deal with a post-apocalyptic society. No doubt, there are people who would say that given time, you could learn and improve yourself, but in the majority of cases, unless you have the sheer luck to find yourself as part of a group where everybody's strength are compatible with everybody else's shortcomings, your'e not going to have enough time to learn what you need to. And you can't expect to survive long enough to get yourself initiated into such a group if you weren't already part of one. That's why I don't dream about returning to a simpler agrarian based society, but rather, use the fact that I can lead a comfortable, modern lifestyle to better learn the kinds of skills that would be useful in that kind of society. Every opportunity I get to learn from someone else how better to grow food, work with wood, hunt, etc, I take because I know that it would benefit me if I ever found myself in need of said skills.
 
To put it shortly, I'm in total agreement logwed!

 

[Dynobot]

Quote:

Logwed: Personally, I believe that there are people who would be better off towards surviving such an occurence. Like you, it is something I've thought about often and often times, and I agree that we have many people in today's society who can be labeled smart, but then if one digs a little deeper, one could see that many of these people would be ill equipped to survive in a post-apocalyptic environment or a return-to-the-past type society. Look at myself for example:
 
I'm terrible at gardening = likely be unable to develop enough land to sustain enough growth of food crops to sustain my little old self.
I have no real skills at metal working, woodworking, etc - exactly the kind of skills that would be beneficial to building shelter/tools, etc
I can handle guns, knives quite well, though I only own knives. That said, I have no real ability to make bullets so when I run out of bullets, any guns I have are useless, and in any case, I've never been a good hunter/fisher so that would likely be another failed attempt at cultivating food.
 
I could go on and on with a list of my shortcomings, but as you said, if any and every person who lives in modern society made such a list, I'm sure most will realize how truly ill-equipped they are to deal with a post-apocalyptic society. No doubt, there are people who would say that given time, you could learn and improve yourself, but in the majority of cases, unless you have the sheer luck to find yourself as part of a group where everybody's strength are compatible with everybody else's shortcomings, your'e not going to have enough time to learn what you need to. And you can't expect to survive long enough to get yourself initiated into such a group if you weren't already part of one. That's why I don't dream about returning to a simpler agrarian based society, but rather, use the fact that I can lead a comfortable, modern lifestyle to better learn the kinds of skills that would be useful in that kind of society. Every opportunity I get to learn from someone else how better to grow food, work with wood, hunt, etc, I take because I know that it would benefit me if I ever found myself in need of said skills.
 
To put it shortly, I'm in total agreement logwed!

Taking a look at your resume, you actually have no choice but to agree with logwed.
 
If it were not for the modern society you would be in pretty bad shape....I suggest you keep your job and go to work everyday!!!
 
Not a bad thing, even in today's society you trade your skills [for what ever you do at work] for other things err money.
 
Only problem is the end-game of capitalism is not sustainable.  Not enough checks and balances in place to stop greed from turning every last tree into furniture.
 
I'm sure logwed has done his homework concerning the technology behind genetically engineered food and the Monsanto Corporation.  I won't claim to be smart, but I did a couple of research papers on genetically engineered food....I found it interesting to say the least.  Let's see where technology will take us....
 
 
 

 

[Dynobot]

Quote:

I went to Japan once to visit my uncle in the navy, admittedly did not really get out of the city areas. I just remember how crowded it was! Do they grow a lot of their own food there? I can't imagine that they'd be able to support their population based entirely on food from the country. Fresh produce perhaps, but I doubt that they can grow enough staple crops.
 
And 15 times to Japan! Very cool stuff, man.

In todays global economy there are very few countries that are still geared towards total self sufficiency.  Lets just say they can grow more than you are imagining....