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Apr 10, 2018 at 12:03 PM Post #175,861 of 177,744
If it's a good laptop, I might still buy one just as a backup. Again, still don't know the model, but if they were last year's 1050ti laptops, I'll buy one.

I wonder if it's the inspiron gaming or a lenovo E series. (I don't think institutions buy ASUS or anything like that, it's usually HP Dell Lenovo)

No Re:Zero for me, I already sent off the orders and I can't be bothered cancelling and starting again (grr one of the items got double charged by PayPal, have to sort that out...)

ryzen 1200 - 135 (msy)
poopy a320m - 75 (ebay 20%)
8gb ram - 101 (ebay 20%)
1060 6gb colorful - 420 (ebay w/5% code)
sandisk 240gb - 95 (ebay 20%)
seasonic focus 450w - 100 (amazon 2 week shipping to AU)
corsair 100r - 73 (ebay 20%, could also get a craptastic early 2000's tacky design coolermaster $49 case and put the $24 into a mobo with actual VRM heatsinks + overclock to 3.7ghz)

total $999
 
Apr 10, 2018 at 12:55 PM Post #175,862 of 177,744
I wonder if it's the inspiron gaming or a lenovo E series. (I don't think institutions buy ASUS or anything like that, it's usually HP Dell Lenovo)

It's an Asus ROG. It's a laptop my school orders in bulk for students in a specific program. I see people use it all the time (well, more like I hear people complain their laptop broke for the 3rd time on FB. XD) but just never looked into it.

Here's a picture of it from FB:

30443131_10157844814727228_3552173583193722495_n.jpg


Any idea what model it might be based on the chassis?
 
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Apr 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM Post #175,863 of 177,744
I guess so. Or should I say, hopefully. :p
But yeah. As I've mentioned I don't know **** about LCDs and might be overreacting. Would help if I had an option to compare, but I actually went to a few stores and all the monitors were either unplugged or running one Samsung phone ad that I presume is rather compressed - leave alone the terrible settings. Shame, because I found at least the Zowie and the LG U-3C mentioned. Not in the same store, tho.


Yeah, that's what I was talking about. Surprising that it happened to this line of monitors and no one else I've looked up yet.


Huh, didn't know. Thought it had to do with FreeSync. Although from what I understand, FreeSync is actually some rebadged existing standard or something like that?

Honestly it's quite hard to be able to go see monitors in person. Maybe B&H Photo Video or Adorama but I don't think those 2 stores exist outside of the US. B&H's flagship store is actually fantastic though; it's like a really compact Yodabashi in the US. Probably my favorite brick and mortar store.

I don't think it's so much a Dell problem rather than it is a problem with how NVIDIA and AMD GPUs handle HDMI. You don't have to apply this fix if you use DisplayPort or DVI.

FreeSync isn't a rebadge of anything like Vsync. It's a new open (i.e. not proprietary like NVIDIA G-Sync) adaptive synchronization standard developed by AMD that is part of the VESA standard now (and by that token it's been part of the Displayport standard since DP 1.2a since DP is a VESA standard). Fundamentally all 3 (Vsync, Freesync, and Gsync) have the goal of eliminating screen tearing, but adaptive sync technologies (freesync and gsync) are better because they only allow the panel to refresh the image it's displaying when the full frame has been drawn to the frame buffer (instead of having part of a new frame and part of an old frame).

Gah I decided to go for the 3GB 1060 and swapped the Corsair VS450 for a Seasonic Focus 450W (7 year warranty yay). The build isn't for me, and I can't have a 1k system blow up in 3-4 years or I'll feel responsible. =P

That wasn't an easy call to make but budgets have to be adhered to or else it's anarchy.

That is actually a really really bad decision. If you wanted something with more testing around it, the Seasonic M12II EVO would have been the better choice. I checked eBay AU and the only model (the 620W) is still cheaper than the Focus 450W. It's also fully modular unlike the Focus 450W. I'm using the CX430 from after they did the OEM change from SeaSonic to some C tier OEM and it's been 5 years and it's still going strong.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story6&reid=356

The warranties really don't matter. If you really do care, the M12II EVO has a 5 year. 80 PLUS ratings past bronze really don't matter. They don't save you much money and they aren't a good indicator of performance (e.g. ripple control, voltage regulation, etc.). A good PSU lasts a lifetime anyways. You should be able to use that same PSU in every build down the road and still have no problems.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/7474/analyzing-power-use-80-plus-bronze-vs-platinum

I don't know how electricity prices are in AU but unless the gold PSU is that close to the price of a bronze PSU, it's going to take a very long time for the gold rating to pay itself back.

Going for the 3GB 1060 vs the 6GB 1060 is the worst decision you could have made. First off:

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/products/10series/geforce-gtx-1060/#specs

The 3GB has an entire SM disabled so it shouldn't even be called a 1060. 3GB VRAM reduces the lifespan of the card. For now it works well with 1080p high/ultra but as textures get more and more complicated, it'll soon be rendered only suitable for 1080p medium. There's a few articles out there looking at the penalties of the 3GB version v. the 6GB version. Since most builds usually last around 4-5 years, it'll probably see some of the effects within 2-3.

There's a couple buy now's for $399 AUD and free postage.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ASUS-Ge...260690?hash=item1ca7521cd2:g:lUkAAOSwcuRaygYB

That one seems good. There's a Zotac one where the seller provides no usage info. This one seems better because it doesn't seem likely it was used for mining. Even if it was used for mining, 99% of miners won't OC the card.

The Zotac one: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ZOTAC-n...523147?hash=item3d5eebe5cb:g:oUQAAOSwqHdayCF3

https://www.howtogeek.com/342079/is-it-safe-to-buy-used-gpus-from-cryptocurrency-miners/

It's way faster for them to just get them up and running ASAP.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MSI-nVi...650477?hash=item2856a9a5ed:g:5IYAAOSwA1paxFRg

That one looks okay too.

I don't know how much storage he uses but I don't feel like a lot of people can live off of a 256GB SSD. You were probably better off getting a 1TB HDD like the WD Blue WD10EZEX, a 1TB Seagate Barracuda, or a 1TB Toshiba P300. That gives you more wiggle room for the PSU and GPU.
 
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Apr 10, 2018 at 1:10 PM Post #175,864 of 177,744
I don't think it's so much a Dell problem rather than it is a problem with how NVIDIA and AMD GPUs handle HDMI. You don't have to apply this fix if you use DisplayPort or DVI.

No, actually the PCmonitors you linked says it happens via DisplayPort, too.
We are quite used to seeing this with Nvidia GPUs connected via HDMI as that is their default behaviour – treat the connected device as an HDTV. But we aren’t used to seeing this over DisplayPort which is currently a PC-only output
Even more, they say Durante's full RGB utility doesn't change anything if it's connected via DisplayPort.

developed by AMD that is part of the VESA standard now (and by that token it's been part of the Displayport standard since DP 1.2a since DP is a VESA standard)
Ah, right. This is where I misremembered.
 
Apr 10, 2018 at 1:31 PM Post #175,865 of 177,744
No, actually the PCmonitors you linked says it happens via DisplayPort, too.

Even more, they say Durante's full RGB utility doesn't change anything if it's connected via DisplayPort.


Ah, right. This is where I misremembered.

OhISee. Well, whatever. Not a big deal.

Edit:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2414h.htm#colour

https://pcmonitors.info/reviews/dell-u2414h/#Calibration

Looks like for NVIDIA it's HDMI + DP that have problems. AMD has no problems with either.
 
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Apr 10, 2018 at 3:14 PM Post #175,866 of 177,744
It's an Asus ROG. It's a laptop my school orders in bulk for students in a specific program. I see people use it all the time (well, more like I hear people complain their laptop broke for the 3rd time on FB. XD) but just never looked into it.

Here's a picture of it from FB:



Any idea what model it might be based on the chassis?
G551 and whatever extra nomenclature for screen resolution and stuff.
it's easy to identify it with the big space above the keyboard. I eyed this model for a while at the time when I started thinking about replacing my old G53.
 
Apr 11, 2018 at 12:17 AM Post #175,870 of 177,744
That is actually a really really bad decision. If you wanted something with more testing around it, the Seasonic M12II EVO would have been the better choice. I checked eBay AU and the only model (the 620W) is still cheaper than the Focus 450W. It's also fully modular unlike the Focus 450W. I'm using the CX430 from after they did the OEM change from SeaSonic to some C tier OEM and it's been 5 years and it's still going strong.

I don't know how much storage he uses but I don't feel like a lot of people can live off of a 256GB SSD. You were probably better off getting a 1TB HDD like the WD Blue WD10EZEX, a 1TB Seagate Barracuda, or a 1TB Toshiba P300. That gives you more wiggle room for the PSU and GPU.

I REALLY wanted to squeeze the 6GB card in there, but that's just the way she goes. Sometimes she goes, sometimes she doesn't. (I don't know what that is from but I've been saying that a lot lately much to the annoyance of my buddies)

Used parts aren't allowed unfortunately, if I had it my way it'd be a 1070 + old workstation rig ahahhaha.

If I went for the 6GB, the motherboard, PSU and SSD would have to be downgraded for an 8% improvement in minimum framerates. Yes, there are some games where the 0.1% lows tank a lot because of the VRAM but you can just turn textures down a little and it's fine (especially at 1080p, textures don't do much for you in terms of visual fidelity). In 5 years time what's the difference between a 30FPS plus stutter and 33 FPS without stutter from having more VRAM, we're going to be playing on medium anyway to keep the framerate up, hell by that time the $120 saved can probably buy a 1060 6GB. =P

The bottom of the barrel A320M boards don't have heatsinks on the VRMs so their lifespan is questionable, going for B350 also opens up overclocking in the future as old used Ryzen chips will be cheap in 3-5 years, it's not like we have to get K series unlocked parts with inflated second hand prices (they are still pricey here). I think the $20 here is well spent.

The SSD I chose was the Intel 535 360GB, 5 year warranty for $120. $20 more for 50% increase in capacity here is also money well spent. They will put one old HDD in as storage so the space isn't too much of an issue, but 256GB gets really annoying with how big games are becoming now. Not having an SSD is out of the question for a 1K computer in 2018, the experience of using a HDD with Windows 10 is frustrating as hell with all the housekeeping and updates going on in the background.

The Seasonic 450W was ~$115, that's about as cheap as you can find a tier 1 or even tier 2 power supply in Australia, I know warranty isn't indicative of build quality but instead of rolling the dice we will know the PSU will provide 7+ years of service. The upgrade from 5 to 7 years warranty is another potential upgrade cycle and since it's a top tier PSU I think the chances of it taking other parts with it is as low as can be. It'll also be quiet! too, cheap PSUs tend to have their fans run non-stop. (heh)

This person is upgrading from the Radeon 5000 era so reliability is just as important as futureproofing. That's nearly ten years ago and I'm pretty sure I built that PC and it's gone through two family members, ready for the third to some kid playing minecraft with a texture pack or whatever kids play now. Chances are, the PC will never be cleaned, will be left on for eternity and let's be honest, I'm almost positive it'll just go through another 5000 hours of Dota 2 or LoL anyway.

If the difference was just $50-60 as it should be, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but right here and now it's $120 and I think the "intangible" sacrifices are too great to ensure a decent experience in 3-5 years time.

A $200 card three generations from now will obliterate the 1060 6GB, this is the wrong time to over-invest in the GPU, ESPECIALLY if the short term gain is only 8% in addition to there being crypto madness with wacky pricing AND the next generation is around the corner as well. The 360GB SSD is a great deal, SSD prices aren't going down that much, the Seasonic will keep on trucking for a decade I'm sure.

In the grand scheme of things turning textures down is a minor annoyance compared to a mobo failure, PSU failure, or worse, living with a HDD for the next 3+ years and then calling me back to help move from an HDD to SSD. So we'll have to turn textures down a click, big deal, apart from some poorly optimised turds it's hard to imagine AAA devs alienating 70% of systems with 3GB VRAM or less.
 
Apr 11, 2018 at 1:10 AM Post #175,871 of 177,744
Honestly the argument you've made kind of works in the reverse. It's like having a 120 fps average but with some really bad stuttering versus a card that can do 90 fps all the time; you will take the 90fps card. It's a very big user experience thing. Right now the difference is already looking like what you think it's going to look like in 5 years, and it's not minimums, it's averages. It's only going to get worse.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-nvidia-geforce-gtx-1060-3gb-vs-6gb-review_13

Motherboard VRMs don't need heatsinks though. At this price bracket as well, most of the B350 board won't have VRM heatsinks either or have ones that may as well not be there. Regardless they can still handle a slight overclock. If he's not going to accept a used GPU as is right now what's the chance he'll be willing to buy a used Ryzen, swap it in, and then spend the time overclocking? You'll only need those beefy VRM heatsinks if you're going to be doing heavier overclocks or using an XFR supporting chip.

Ah didn't know about the old HDD. I do agree that not having an SSD in 2018 is basically suicide but without prior knowledge of you already having a salvaged one on hand and that most people probably can't survive on 360GB for their main machine, the 1TB 7200rpm recommendation made more sense.

I still think you're putting too much weight on the warranty. If you got it for $115 AUD, that's a great deal (in Australia at least) since I could only find it for like $160 AUD with my quick 2 minute search. Good PSU's, especially Seasonics, are going to be lasting 10+ years. I don't think you should be considering the warranty at all when you're looking at units of this calibre unless it's the only differentiating factor. I think basing the warranty as the reason for choosing it is just bad, period. If you ever have to rely on the warranty to kick in before it expires, good chance it's a bad PSU. It's not some minimum lifespan guarantee unless we're talking C tier units.

If reliability is key then high chance he won't be overclocking either, so that kind of invalidates the need for heatsinked VRMs or a B350 board for overclocking. Same goes for taking the 3GB 1060 over the 6GB.

The GPU scene is basically going to be at a standstill for awhile. NVIDIA effectively has a monopoly over the GPU market and RTG is doing nothing on the consumer side. They're trying their hardest to pivot into GPU compute which is targeted squarely at prosumer and corporate markets. We're already seeing NVIDIA milking the crap out of Pascal and pushing off Volta as far as possible because the competition isn't there, and it won't be there for the foreseeable future. We're basically going on 18 month release cycles now. Some $200 GPU in the next 3 years will probably be lower or the same performance as a current 1060. It's almost approaching 2 years since Pascal consumer GPUs have been released and we're still seeing no signs of Volta consumer cards. NVIDIA can probably wait till Q1 2019 to release Volta and have 0 problems dealing with RTG's Navi.

Your idea of failure rates for the motherboard or PSU are kind of exaggerated. Upgrading the PSU, like I said earlier for that price, is fine, especially from some probable C tier to a tier A. I don't think that motherboard upgrade is going to be more beneficial than the GPU upgrade though. I doubt your friend wants a $1000 machine that can barely do 1080p medium after about 2 years. The GPUs may not be moving but the games are.
 
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Apr 11, 2018 at 1:46 AM Post #175,872 of 177,744
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-nvidia-geforce-gtx-1060-3gb-vs-6gb-review_13

Your idea of failure rates for the motherboard or PSU are kind of exaggerated. Upgrading the PSU, like I said earlier for that price, is fine. I don't think that motherboard upgrade is going to be more beneficial than the GPU upgrade though. I doubt your friend wants a $1000 machine that can barely do 1080p medium after about 2 years though.

Warranty is just like insurance, it's knowing that you don't have to dump more money than necessary in a system. This build isn't for you and I who only care about maximum FPS per dollar, we can swap out parts as needed but when a build is for a friend's family member who is still using a rig from 9 years ago I don't think they even care about stutter. They just want a trouble free system that can play games on the cheap, and that's exactly what I've built.

The ASrock pro 4 has a heatsink on the mosfets, some of the other manufacturers do as well but this one was chosen because all bios versions support the 1200 out of the box. (Our retailers are crappy so you really have no idea if you're getting one with an updated BIOS or not, and it's not like we have a 1700 sitting around to put in for a bios update)

The $20 saved on the motherboard alone isn't going to pay for the 6GB 1060 upgrade but it does open the doors to a potential upgrade path, however unlikely it may seem.

I'm just not seeing any evidence that the 3GB has become obsoleted because of the VRAM (worst case scenario we're talking high instead of ultra, not medium instead of ultra). If we had the extra $100 no doubt it would be going into the upgrade, but we don't have it.

What big blockbuster AAA titles are even coming out these days? Far Cry 5 runs perfectly fine from what I've seen. (I am so out of touch with gaming that's the only new game I know from the top of my head)
How many games are there in the top 100 in steam that are severely VRAM limited? Like 2?

3gb 2.png

3gb1.png
 
Apr 11, 2018 at 2:05 AM Post #175,873 of 177,744
Not sure I would define $1k as cheap but okay. This isn't even just being about FPS per dollar, it's just maximum lifespan (which at this point we're basically just arguing over VRAM).

BIOS support for Ryzen 1XXX chips is default on all BIOSes. You don't release a motherboard that can't support a CPU that was just released as well. Newer BIOSes for 3XX chipsets are adding Raven Ridge APU support and higher memory speeds (and Zen+/Ryzen 2000).

Potential upgrade path? Haven't you just contradicted yourself saying that while people like "us" can just swap out parts nilly willy we can't do this for somebody else's machine? They're not going to be happy if you're going to be effectively snowballing the cost to over $1000 over the lifespan of the machine.

I don't think you're taking into account architecture optimizations. The problem right now is that you're already seeing those VRAM heavy penalties right now going from 1080p60 ultra being dropped to high. Given that texture sizes are going to keep on increasing at each quality preset and that the architecture won't be optimized for down the road, how do you expect this to hold up within 2-3 years? Not very well at the very least. You will be seeing it drop from what was ultra to medium by the 3-4 year mark. Textures also can get larger due to better image compression techniques or other shortcuts which are effectively tied to newer architectures at a hardware level. These things aren't handled by general purpose logic in the GPU because it needs custom hardware (accelerators) to work at a sufficient speed. Even if you're like "but you just said you won't see GPU generation turnover being that high, wouldn't Pascal have a longer lifespan?" Not going to work this way because NVIDIA, who basically is in bed with every aspect of the consumer GPU and video game market, will do the moves to force you to buy the new GPUs. NVIDIA is a genius company when it comes to playing smart and dirty and that's very easy to see from the past decade.

It's 2 titles now, but you'll see that number moving up pretty quickly. It also doesn't help that a lot of popular games are giant messes of spaghetti code or not that well optimized.
 
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Apr 11, 2018 at 4:13 AM Post #175,874 of 177,744
Not sure I would define $1k as cheap but okay. This isn't even just being about FPS per dollar, it's just maximum lifespan (which at this point we're basically just arguing over VRAM).

Look as someone who has a distorted view on risk management because I day trade for a living, we all have our biases.

A great system for 2 years, then a decent one for 5+ after is fine, and it's what I've decided would make this person most happy.

A great system for 3-4 years on a ticking time bomb of a power supply, with 120GB less SSD space, ehhhhh.

It's a tough call, I want a phone call in 4 years asking for a GPU upgrade versus a disaster PSU taking parts out with it. Keep in mind again they've been using a Radeon 5000 series for a while...they aren't PCMR chasing frame rates, they need a reliable base because chances are the only upgrades they're gonna get are hand me downs.

I've made the objectively wrong decision and that's fine, call it a stop loss.

Edit: met up with him just then, the PC is for his little sister who only plays browser games....

Well...could be worse I guess...that's not what I had in mind when he said it's only for games.
 
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Apr 11, 2018 at 5:19 AM Post #175,875 of 177,744

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