[Asr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif ^^ that's a big statement. you think a beta22 will/should outperform say a B52 or high end single power such as an SDS-XLR.

Well, what about the B52 or the SDS XLR makes them high-end? Has Singlepower or RSA published the detailed specs of their amps? High pricetag doesn't automatically make something high-end you know, you have to look for the performance in the specifications and the implementation. Just because the Singlepower amps for example look dead sexy doesn't mean they're automatically high-end, they just look pretty. You have to compare the specs and schematics. (Not to mention almost all of Singlepower's amps have tubes in them which makes them incomparable to solid-state which typically has less output power compared to tube amps, but the Beta 22 is an exception at 18W in single-ended mode and 50W in balanced mode.)

 

[J-Pak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asr /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, what about the B52 or the SDS XLR makes them high-end? Has Singlepower or RSA published the detailed specs of their amps? High pricetag doesn't automatically make something high-end you know, you have to look for the performance in the specifications and the implementation. Just because the Singlepower amps for example look dead sexy doesn't mean they're automatically high-end, they just look pretty. You have to compare the specs and schematics. (Not to mention almost all of Singlepower's amps have tubes in them which makes them incomparable to solid-state which typically has less output power compared to tube amps, but the Beta 22 is an exception at 18W.)

The Dynahi/Dynamite can be configured as an integrated amp as well.

 

[khbaur330162]

I read the Apache and B-52 are merely balanced configurations of Ray's older headamp topologies. I forget which respective amp was supposedly converted to form each of his top-of-the-lines, but if that's true... well you do the math.

 

[vvs_75]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif i would love to get a GSX and beta22 to compare with my apache. not sure how that would happen though, other than spending over 3K.

It's easy! Just do not miss next NY meet.

I am pretty sure somebody built one in your area! If not then wait until I finish mine and come to the next DC meet.

So many projects and so little money!

 

[SK138]

You are getting beta22? I have the GSX

I live little west of DC area...maybe we should have the next DC meet sooner

Quote:

Originally Posted by vvs_75 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's easy! Just do not miss next NY meet. I am pretty sure somebody built one in your area! If not then wait until I finish mine and come to the next DC meet. So many projects and so little money!

 

[swt61]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amb /img/forum/go_quote.gif $3000 would be cheap for a commercial β22, and for a boutique high-end manufacturer they won't be able to make money selling it at that price. The fact is there is no commercial equivalent of the β22 at the moment, at least for headphone amps. See a related discussion in the following thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/dif...y-amps-266129/

You know that was my gut feeling, but I wanted to error on the conservative side.

And furthermore this amp is my personal favorite of any amp I've yet heard period, but that's strictly my opinion. I believe the GS-X to be a superb amp, but the β22 is more to my liking. I don't think you could go wrong with either amp, but my cans need serious juice, and the hemp single driver speakers are not far from my project table.

I can't comment on the Apache or B-52.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fierce_freak /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the kind words, Steve...You were an absolute pleasure to work with, as well I haven't heard all the high end amps out there (including the two high end RSA options), but I'd feel pretty comfortable making the claim that you'd be extremely hard pressed to find something better than the B22...different, maybe, but not better. Of course, there will always be future projects that may perform better...but I'm not really sure how much any gains could be. This is just my opinion, and I wouldn't be surprised to see others disagree. We all have different ears As far as discussion goes concerning my own work, if you're interested in anything drop me a PM so we can keep this thread focused on the star of the show, B22.

The pleasure was mine Jim. There's nothing greater than finding someone who feels the same way about quality and integrity I do. Especially when they can do things I can't.

I can't recommend Jim high enough!

 

[mofonyx]

swt61/fierce_freak

I've been looking much into the Joshua Tree stepper.

Would you know what single linear potentiometer was used in your configuration?

The prices of precision linear pots ranges madly from 13 USD to 210 USD.

 

[swt61]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mofonyx /img/forum/go_quote.gif swt61/fierce_freak I've been looking much into the Joshua Tree stepper. Would you know what single linear potentiometer was used in your configuration? The prices of precision linear pots ranges madly from 13 USD to 210 USD.

It's included in the JT kit.

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif ^^ that's a big statement. you think a beta22 will/should outperform say a B52 or high end single power such as an SDS-XLR.

You should go back to last spring's NYC meet thread, Ray himself was more than just a little bit impressed with the single-ended beta22 that I had there as were a few other manufacturers present.

 

[swt61]

I'm not sure why it would be so surprising that a β22 could compete with or outperform other top rated amps. Why would anyone doubt that it could? I'm not saying it does or doesn't, but take a look under the hood. This isn't a simple little amp, it's a big, powerful well thought out design. If the theory that it couldn't compete is based solely on price you must take into account that labor and overhead alone add a huge price increase for a boutique company.

As an example I often give customers bids for say a new floor, only to hear "why so much? I can get the flooring at Home Depot for $X" To which I usually try to explain that yes you can, but it doesn't come home and install itself. If I pay 2 installers $3.00 per sq.ft. that adds up quick, not to mention the insurance I have to keep, the building I have to maintain, tools, vehicles, gas, taxes, etc, etc, etc...

One individual building an amp at home in his spare time doesn't encounter that kind of overhead. Also those massive aluminum slabbed cases and knobs don't come cheap. That's why you can buy a β22 for substantially less. DIY isn't for everyone. If I didn't have a builder I'd go the boutique route myself, because me and soldering irons haven't made friends yet. Just judge the amps on merit alone, and forget pricepoint, you'll come away with a much more accurate indication of where they lye.

I'm not trying to shove the β22 down anyones throat, or tell them it's better than what they own. I'm just trying to show that there's a new choice in high end amps out there, and it's very good.

 

[philodox]

I've heard most of the amps being discussed here, but haven't had the chance to directly compare them unfortunately. That said, even having only heard the single ended β22, I can certainly understand Steve's reception of it. Were I to go solid state, it would definately be one of my top considerations. Amb is very right that there is no commercial equivalent, and that if there was, it would be WAY out of most of our budgets.

This is true of most DIY offerings, as well as prototypes. [ie. my amp

]

 

[vcoheda]

there are some who think very little of the RSA design and those same people generally think very highly of the beta22. based on their comments, you would think that the beta22 in terms of performance would *crush* the apache and rather easily. but i just can't imagine another solid state balanced amp substantially outperforming my apache for headphone use. i'm beginning to think that design does not tell the entire story.

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif there are some who think very little of the RSA design and those same people generally think very highly of the beta22. based on their comments, you would think that the beta22 in terms of performance would *crush* the apache and rather easily. but i just can't imagine another solid state balanced amp substantially outperforming my apache for headphone use. I'm beginning to think that design does not tell the entire story.

And there are some who own neither and have heard both.

I've got nothing against RSA. Ray is a great guy and his build quality and fit and finish are excellent. He is a commercial builder though, so his profit margins need to be higher. There really isn't any way he can compete with the DIY'ers if you are only considering the technology and the sonics of the devices at a given price.

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif there are some who think very little of the RSA design and those same people generally think very highly of the beta22. based on their comments, you would think that the beta22 in terms of performance would *crush* the apache and rather easily. but i just can't imagine another solid state balanced amp substantially outperforming my apache for headphone use.

I hope we can have a relative discussion regarding different designs without this deteriorating into a fight about who's on who's side, etc.

That said, the Apache's amplification circuit is largely derived from one of Ray's previous designs. That's not a slight against it, just the truth and from what I understand he's made some improvements as well. I've yet to see pictures or specs of the Apache power supply but by deductive reasoning it seems fair to imagine that it might be roughly double one of his previous designs as well. Given that information and the past performance of these products coupled with the casework and the features of the Apache it's not hard to figure Ray's costs vs. price and I don't think he's out of line there. Now, the beta22 is a different beast all together from both an amplification and power supply stand point. Neither of its core components has a commercial equivalent based on the simple fact that it's cost prohibitive to do so. The power supply alone (the sigma22) would probably cost in the ~$600-$800 range to produce commercially; most balanced betas are running two of these. The current delivery capacity along with near-unmeasurable ripple is without pier in the DIY realm. The amplification side of things is even more absurd. It's a full on assault on discrete amplification design with a cost-no-object approach. No manufacturer can afford to operate like that, both from a design and implementation standpoint. Why? Because there just isn't time to develop something like this (amb worked on it for years) and the payback would be impossibly long given the limited market for an amp like this. So when others have said that there is no commercial equivalent they mean it, built to Ray's standard of casework a balanced beta22 would easily need a price tag north of $5k and probably beyond. The fact that a few folks build and sell these amps for significantly less is not a good representation of the amps value or relative performance.

Please note that none of what I said is a slight on Ray's Apache, I've heard it and enjoyed it.

Quote:

i'm beginning to think that design does not tell the entire story.

I'll grant you that as long as you don't discount it entirely.

 

[swt61]

I upgraded to the β22 from my dual Darkvoice 336i setup that Fitz extensively reworked and wired into two mono balanced headphone amps. Those amps were no slouch, and cost in the $1000.00 neighborhood.

I expected a pretty nice elevation in SQ, but was absolutely gobsmacked at what I got. This is most definitely a top contender. The amp has power reserves that I'm sure I'll never tap into even with my K340 and Donuts. I'm quite certain this amp would drive the K1000 to it's full potential without breakin' a sweat.
But the refinement of the SQ is what I just had no way of preparing for. I've auditioned a lot of uber high end audio gear in my day, and this amp sits firmly in that category IMHO.

Unfortunately that puts the K1000 firmly in my sites now.
So if you see me on your street corner with a sign that says "WILL WORK FOR AUDIO GEAR" throw me a buck.