[wushuliu]

  So, back on topic...
 
It looks like it is going to be easy to A/B the F-1 against my DAC's built-in input. Using JRMC, I have the F-1 and the internal USB set up as independent devices inside of a link. For anyone not familiar with JRMC, that will allow it to send the same data to both interfaces at the same time. I've confirmed already that timing differences if any are not audible (at least in my setup, ymmv). The DAC switches seamlessly between native USB and F1->SPDIF. Going back to USB incurs a brief mute, almost instant but not quite.
 
The native USB on this DAC is excellent (it is also XMOS based, older chipset), but I can already hear some subtle differences with the F-1.  Very early initial impressions favor the F-1... I'll wait until the F-1 has 100 or so hours of playback on it before doing any critical listening.
 
One place where the F-1 already wins is stability. Despite them using the same version XMOS driver (which from what I can tell after dissecting the installer packages are only different in that they're hard coded to recognize only the device they are built for) the F-1 has not had a single hiccup over the past 24 hours where the built-in XMOS interface on the DAC loses sync once a day or so. Even if I wasn't able to hear differences, that alone would make it a keeper.
 
   -Mike

Which DAC are using?

 

[mhamel]

  Which DAC are using?

 
Dangerous Music Convert-2 - http://dangerousmusic.com/product/convert-2/
 
It retired my Yggrasil, which I just sold.

 

[ginetto61]

Originally Posted by rb2013 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Ok a little primer on SPDIF - it comes in four basic flavors bus all based on the same protocol:Two Coax with different connectors BNC and RCA (both 75 ohm and interchangeable with a simple adapter), Optical, and AES which is a balanced version using a XLR connector and 110 ohms (it is SPDIF but with a high gain and high impedance - so can run longer lengths) - AES with an adapter (to convert 110ohms to 75 ohms and a 10dB attenuator - to prevent damaging or overloading the SPDIF Coax receiver) can work straight into a SPDIF RCA or BNC connection.
So Gino as I said the $13,000 new Chord DAVE DAC does SPDIF and USB ONLY!

 
Hi and thanks a lot for the valuable explanation.
I think i understand.  There is only a common spdif out with different input connections ?  very good indeed !  i like choice.
Personally i love bnc with its bayonet connector.
My reasoning is very simple and possibly wrong.  It is a connection of this type that can be found in GHz scopes.
If it is good for them it can be also good for an audio dac.
To be honest i really do not understand why BNC is not the standard de facto on high level units.  It is also very very cheap to build.
Instead i hate deeply RCA.  You never ever see an RCA on a scope.  Never.  Is this not a clue ?
I read about the Chord and it must really be something special.
Unfortunately the technology employed make the product extremely expensive.
I just hope that one day the same technology will be more affordable.
In the meantime i took the plunge and ordered a Gustard X20.
Hoping that it will sound better than my Apogee.
Not that the Apogee is a dog ... actually mated with a Melodious DDC via AES/EBU
has provided me with the best sound i have experienced in my humble system.
Thanks a lot again
gino

 

[prot]

You shouldn't find it funny because there isn't the best digital interface yet. All have its drawbacks. And it all depends on other devices you have in the chain and their capabilities, especially in digital signal processing.

SPDIF - it was not designed for hi-fi, just mainly for debug purposes AFAIK. So its simple, not complicated, does not care about errors, no flow control, no error correction. But became standard in consumer audio equipment because was widely used and no better standard existed 30 years ago. But it must squeeze all three (four) signals needed for digital audio transmission into one. In 99% implementation is synchronous. Transmitter has is own clock, receiver has own and the receiver must recover the correct clock just from one mixed signal.

AES/EBU (AES3) is just balanced variation of SPDIF for professional studios that offers longer connections and is less prone to interference.

USB - it was not designed for hi-fi but for computers and peripherals, just to replace old serial/ps communication. But it could be asynchronous at least.

I2S - It's not a standard at all. It's just internal connection between transport and DAC. Different in different implementations. Could have different physical connectors (3 x BNC, RJ45, HDMI, etc.). No pinout standard. So when improperly connected can result in from no sound to device damage. So most DAC manufacturers don't want to take risk of this nor to explain to everybody why i2s connection is not working with particular transport. So i2s is more oriented for people with DYI skills. Audio-gd is  known manufacturer who equips its DAC with i2s (rj45, hdmi as option) because they allow some DYI (open case to change jumpers inside, change USB card, etc).
So good DDI (USB->SPDIF) can replace poor transmitter but can't change the DAC spdif receiver capabilities. Just offers better signal and hopes DAC spdif receiver recover it well.

I think we are still waiting for digital interface designed especially for hi-fi

A good resume of available interfaces. But I think you wanted to say that "the perfect" interface does not exist .. and it may never exist. But "the best" surely does (as in "the best sounding").
Since most Dac chips natively speak i2s, that is the shortest and simplest path to a Dac's 'heart' .. I'm no EE but simple logic says that i2s should be the best sounding. Surely it's the least convenient atm, but that's an acceptable sacrifice when you want the best sound

P.S.
most peole around here use Usb chains-of-pain with more than 5 devices/cables/etc. Doubtful that anyone cares about convenience here.

 

[Currawong]

 

I was with a Raspberry Pi running Ubuntu, but it wont output audio over USB lately and I don't know why. I tend to get excellent results using an iPad as a transport, though it wont always connect straight-away to the F-1, so I've been using my MacBook Air mostly. That goes into an iUSB 3.0 with an Aurorasound PSU (for their USB Bus Power unit). It has pushed the Yggy over the edge, much as using a Schiit Wyrd or the Audiophilleo did for the Chord Hugo before. Now if there was some means to put it inside the Yggy, that'd be much neater. 

Inside is so much better than outside

And I find it somewhat funny that everyone around here invests so much time and money in those usb digital devices but noone asks the simple, obvious question: what is the best digital interface?

I'm going to entertain this. The answer is: Because there isn't one. Where is your music? If it's on a computer, then there is, most of the time, only one digital output, and that is USB. Every type of interface you convert to has its own pros and cons. Optical doesn't carry noise, but it high jitter. For S/PDIF read this article about transports. AES is less susceptible to noise, but may suffer due to the quality of the transformers on either end. Maybe we can use a streaming server, so the computer, and the noisy, unsuitable USB is out of the equation. But the streaming server IS a computer. The same questions arise again with the output.
 
Then, someone with a different DAC will have different experiences for who knows what reasons.  The funny thing is, every well-known DAC designer who has been at it for many years had to start all over again with USB, and they all took years before they could implement anything really well, especially if high-res was involved. Even recent designs still have issues!

 

[hugoboss]

update listening with centrance mini cx
this is for some people asking if f1 helps a cheap dac sound better?
 

 
 
the answer?
 
F1 Help Centrance sound so much better compare to it's own usb .
all become more clear, lot of detail , treble also very extended.
fyi..
i have long forgotten my first dac this centrance, after so many dac comes aune s16,hugo,audio gd nos7
today listen to it with f1 its really become like another different dac liek a new stereoid pump inside centrance
detail, treble, soundstage all become clearer , more dynamic.
so you should try this F1, it is magic for all dac
 
 
next f1 with audiogd new nos 7 2016 edition

 

[hugoboss]

as for the best digital interface available now i know it is i2s . but you know what there is big BUT ??
 
it is a headache . pain in the ***
because I2S is not a standard that every dac used
ps audio audiogd gustard, whatever i2s dac , all have its own pin different, it is so much pain to finally find the correct pin , after you find the correct one, it need a very short hdmi cable or lan cable,
then if you want to use occ cable with i2s cable? you will waste alot alot money for the occ cable.i2s need so much more cable compare to usb (4cable sometimes just 2) or coax (2 cables) , i2s hdmi = alot alot cable if you want to make diy super cable like occ silver or silver gold,
last you must be very careful when using i2s, never ever disconnect the cable when your dac is on. whatever accident happen  liek the cable got disconnect you got risk to damaged your dac
,for me i2s = to much money to invest
i am also want to use hdmi i2s for my audio gd nos7 but it still a long way to go. to many problem to just to make it connect.
 
so now iam satisfied with either f1, ifi usb 3, or both combo. maybe in the future will try i2s
 
 
iam very sure this new xmos xcore 208 will become standard in many dac brand next year or even now , the sound is to good

 

[ginetto61]

update listening with centrance mini cx
this is for some people asking if f1 helps a cheap dac sound better? 

 
Yeeesss !!!  

 

the answer?   F1 Help Centrance sound so much better compare to it's own usb .
all become more clear, lot of detail , treble also very extended.
fyi..
i have long forgotten my first dac this centrance, after so many dac comes aune s16,hugo,audio gd nos7
today listen to it with f1 its really become like another different dac liek a new stereoid pump inside centrance
detail, treble, soundstage all become clearer , more dynamic.
so you should try this F1, it is magic for all dac
 
next f1 with audiogd new nos 7 2016 edition

 
Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting test.  I have a bag full of cheap dacs

Are you using only a usb cable to connect the F1 to your pc or are you using also some other devices like usb power supplies, isolators or reclockers ?
Thanks a lot again,  gino  

 

[hugoboss]

   
Yeeesss !!!  

 
 
Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting test.  I have a bag full of cheap dacs

Are you using only a usb cable to connect the F1 to your pc or are you using also some other devices like usb power supplies, isolators or reclockers ?
Thanks a lot again,  gino  

i used dual head usb cable . and 5volt linear power supplies.
so the 5volt usb power come from linear psu the pc usb only send data. then it connect to f1. from f1 to dac using my diy coax cable
actually centrance is not a cheap dac but it's the cheapest dac i have now. i got centrance when it release 6 years ago about $600-700.
so in my opinion a 6 years old dac can become like a steroid injected sound with this little f1 . you can call it magic

 

[hgpsemaj]

 
I'm going to entertain this. The answer is: Because there isn't one. Where is your music? If it's on a computer, then there is, most of the time, only one digital output, and that is USB.

 
 
 
Excuse me, may I output those digital data via Ethernet connection? 
 
 
Regards,

 

[ginetto61]

Originally Posted by hugoboss /img/forum/go_quote.gif
i used dual head usb cable . and 5volt linear power supplies.   so the 5volt usb power come from linear psu the pc usb only send data.
then it connect to f1. from f1 to dac using my diy coax cable

 
Hi and thanks a lot indeed again
i assume you have used the same connection with and without the F1 ... good ! i have understood.
 

actually centrance is not a cheap dac but it's the cheapest dac i have now. i got centrance when it release 6 years ago about $600-700.
so in my opinion a 6 years old dac can become like a steroid injected sound with this little f1 . you can call it magic

from what i have read it is a high quality dac indeed.
It is not the first time that i read of a dac performing better when fed through the spdif instead of the usb port.
This usb interface seems quite tricky to do rightly. 
The evidence is in the continuos improvement of interfaces and various generations of better usb chip receivers.
However a must for me is galvanic isolation.  It is important to block, as much as possible, noise coming from the PC.
I am using a cheap usb headset (mic + headphones).  With direct connection to a usb port a lot of noise.
With a usb passive filter in places much less noise and better sound.
Then i understand some sort of reclocking, of the kind performed by the Regen, could be very beneficial.
The F1 is very high on my most wanted list ... but i have to recover from the last buy ... a Gustard x20.
Next one in line for sure.
Thanks a lot again,  gino

 

[prot]

I'm going to entertain this. The answer is: Because there isn't one. Where is your music? If it's on a computer, then there is, most of the time, only one digital output, and that is USB. Every type of interface you convert to has its own pros and cons. Optical doesn't carry noise, but it high jitter. For S/PDIF read this article about transports. AES is less susceptible to noise, but may suffer due to the quality of the transformers on either end. Maybe we can use a streaming server, so the computer, and the noisy, unsuitable USB is out of the equation. But the streaming server IS a computer. The same questions arise again with the output.

Then, someone with a different DAC will have different experiences for who knows what reasons.  The funny thing is, every well-known DAC designer who has been at it for many years had to start all over again with USB, and they all took years before they could implement anything really well, especially if high-res was involved. Even recent designs still have issues!

Surely there is no perfect one .. there isnt even a 'best for everything/everyone' one .. but there should be a 'best sounding' one. And that's what I wanna know .. and I'm surely not the only one.

The setup is common for everyone and quite clear DigitallyStoredMusic -> DigitalPlayer -> Dac.

The shortest/simplest path being pretty much always the best, that would be a single box setup. On one side you have e.g. an rpi+2gb ssd and on the other a Dac. Connected through shortest possible i2s cable.
Dont think it can get any shorter/simpler with today's tech. But if anyone knows better, please post.

 

[Currawong]

@prot At this stage then, you have a choice: Either go out and buy all the ones you can and find out for yourself, or do what I did and take a chance, thankfully inexpensively, on the ones people here think sounds best (with their own DACs, I might add) and duplicate their set-up to whatever degree suits your budget and tastes.
 
Quote:

  Excuse me, may I output those digital data via Ethernet connection? 

 
Yup, that's what I meant about using a streaming server. 

 

 

[hgpsemaj]

   
Yup, that's what I meant about using a streaming server. 

 

 
 
Thank you for your prompt reply.
 
 
Regards,

 

[prot]

That's all I am doing.
Following alex's rpi/i2s development in the ddc thread. That would be my no1 bet and the most promising experiment.

This new wave of ddc-s is a distant second. Might be the 'safe' alternative in case the rpi thing doesnt work for some reason. Hard to believe after the very encouraging start, but a safety net is always good to have.
Still wish though that this Usb thing wasnt such a headache. And that some of the owners of F1 will post a few serious apples-to-apples comparisons with the best of last gen ddcs: puc2, tanly, hydra, etc.
Also wish I had more time to experiment myself.