[wushuliu]

  update listening with centrance mini cx
this is for some people asking if f1 helps a cheap dac sound better?
 

 
 
the answer?
 
F1 Help Centrance sound so much better compare to it's own usb .
all become more clear, lot of detail , treble also very extended.
fyi..
i have long forgotten my first dac this centrance, after so many dac comes aune s16,hugo,audio gd nos7
today listen to it with f1 its really become like another different dac liek a new stereoid pump inside centrance
detail, treble, soundstage all become clearer , more dynamic.
so you should try this F1, it is magic for all dac
 
 
next f1 with audiogd new nos 7 2016 edition

 
Awesome. Thanks for the update. I used to have a Centrance Dacport, they make good dacs. A Dacmini 6 years ago is equal to a $300-400 dac now...

 

[abartels]

  @prot At this stage then, you have a choice: Either go out and buy all the ones you can and find out for yourself, or do what I did and take a chance, thankfully inexpensively, on the ones people here think sounds best (with their own DACs, I might add) and duplicate their set-up to whatever degree suits your budget and tastes.
 
Quote:

  Excuse me, may I output those digital data via Ethernet connection? 

 
Yup, that's what I meant about using a streaming server. 

 

 
I've got my little streaming server / client ready, RPI3 + DAC+Pro with I2S output, directly to I2S input of dac. Wires <5cm
 
Software used:
 
PiCorePlayer 2.04 (freeware) 75Mb on MicroSD card (card cost $5)
LMS server 7.9 (freeware) on old windows laptop, you can also install it on linux (freeware)  and there even is also a NAS version available (freeware)
 
Hardware used:
 
RaspBerry Pi 3 $35
HifiBerry DAC+ Pro $45
 
And, of course, a good dac 

 
Next step will be to built-in this little RPI3/I2S interface / netwerkplayer into my DAC

 

[rb2013]

That's all I am doing.
Following alex's rpi/i2s development in the ddc thread. That would be my no1 bet and the most promising experiment.

This new wave of ddc-s is a distant second. Might be the 'safe' alternative in case the rpi thing doesnt work for some reason. Hard to believe after the very encouraging start, but a safety net is always good to have.
Still wish though that this Usb thing wasnt such a headache. And that some of the owners of F1 will post a few serious apples-to-apples comparisons with the best of last gen ddcs: puc2, tanly, hydra, etc.
Also wish I had more time to experiment myself.

I did and the F-1 blows away the Hydra Z, PUC2, Pro3a...apples to apples

 

[rb2013]

Here was the ethernet solution from the past that was discarded for USB - I still have my PCI-e to Box EMU 1616M uses CAT5 connection.  http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct05/articles/emu1616m.htm
 
I also had the 1394b connected RME Fireface 800 - that has also fallen by the wayside replaced by USB.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec04/articles/fireface.htm
 
The future will be USB-C (3.1) and Thunderbolt 3.  After that quantum entanglement 0 latency connection - because we all know that to get great audio we need 110,000,000,000,000,000Khz sampling rates and a few million bits.
 
http://proaudioblog.co.uk/2015/09/usb-3-vs-thunderbolt-interfaces/
 

 

[mhamel]

A bit more on what I'm hearing so far.
 
Switching back and forth between the C2's built-in USB and the F-1, the best word I can think of to describe what I'm hearing is that the same track through the F1 is more vibrant in just about every way. Everything is a bit more dynamic, imaging seems like it has more width and depth, I'm hearing more detail and even greater separation/layering of instruments - something the C2 already excels at - all without losing any of the tonality that I love about this DAC.
 
Initially I was wondering if it might be a slight difference in levels, which can cause that type of change perception if one source is louder than the other, but I confirmed with a db meter and test tones that the output level from both was/is identical.
 
So, color me impressed... this is with around 40 hours on the F-1.
 
It does bring up the question of whether or not it's worth it to drop $300 on the SU-1 to get AES output or if it would really be any better than what I'm now hearing. Logic tells me no.. but my lifelong obsession with this #$)(%()* hobby will probably nag me until I try it. 
 
    -Mike

 

[rb2013]

And Thunderbolt is here already - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Clarett4Pre?adpos=1o1&creative=93365752201&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CJDI5p7Qp8wCFUKUfgodn_ABFQ
 

 

[rb2013]

  A bit more on what I'm hearing so far.
 
Switching back and forth between the C2's built-in USB and the F-1, the best word I can think of to describe what I'm hearing is that the same track through the F1 is more vibrant in just about every way. Everything is a bit more dynamic, imaging seems like it has more width and depth, I'm hearing more detail and even greater separation/layering of instruments - something the C2 already excels at - all without losing any of the tonality that I love about this DAC.
 
Initially I was wondering if it might be a slight difference in levels, which can cause that type of change perception if one source is louder than the other, but I confirmed with a db meter and test tones that the output level from both was/is identical.
 
So, color me impressed... this is with around 40 hours on the F-1.
 
It does bring up the question of whether or not it's worth it to drop $300 on the SU-1 to get AES output or if it would really be any better than what I'm now hearing. Logic tells me no.. but my lifelong obsession with this #$)(%()* hobby will probably nag me until I try it. 
 
    -Mike

Your internal USB card is connected by i2s and the F-1 SPDIF coax - hum....

 

[rb2013]

  And Thunderbolt is here already - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Clarett4Pre?adpos=1o1&creative=93365752201&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CJDI5p7Qp8wCFUKUfgodn_ABFQ
 

Why Thunderbolt?

Thunderbolt is a little different to interfaces like USB and FireWire. It brings the PCI Express interface – used for super fast graphics cards and other slots inside the computer – out to external devices. It’s not so much an interface as a bus that gives you direct access to the machine’s inner workings. And as a result, it’s ideal for audio, with exceptionally high speed and correspondingly low latency – making possible the astonishingly low round-trip latency figures that Clarett offers – and unparalleled flexibility. At Focusrite, we’re convinced that Thunderbolt is the interface of the future – especially in the creative professional environment – and the Clarett range demonstrates many of the significant benefits that Thunderbolt provides.
 

 
My next server project will be a Mini Mac using this device connected by Thunderbolt 3
 
PS In fact will start a new thread today on Thunderbolt and the Focusrite Clarett 4PRe 8Pre and 8PreX.
 

Support was added to Intel's Skylake architecture chipsets, shipping during late 2015 into early 2016.^[53][54][55]

Devices with Thunderbolt 3 ports began shipping at the beginning of December 2015, including notebooks running Microsoft Windows (fromAcer, Asus, Clevo, Dell, Dell Alienware, Lenovo, MSI, and Sony), as well as motherboards (from Gigabyte Technology), and a 0.5m Thunderbolt 3 passive USB-C cable (from Lintes Technology).^[57]

While Thunderbolt has had poor hardware support outside of Apple devices and been relegated to a niche gadget port, the adoption of the Thunderbolt 3 using USB-C connector standard into a wide array of hardware bodes well for market acceptance of the standard. 

With the introduction of Thunderbolt 3, Intel announced that otherwise-standard passive USB type-C cables will be able to connect Thunderbolt devices at lower speeds than full active Thunderbolt cables, but still faster than USB 3.1.^[77] This allows for cheaper connections to new Thunderbolt devices, with inexpensive USB type-C cables costing noticeably less than active Thunderbolt cables. 

Intel's Thunderbolt 3 controller (codenamed Alpine Ridge) doubles the bandwidth to 40 Gbit/s (5 GB/s)

 

[rb2013]

Ok The Thunderbolt Thread is up http://www.head-fi.org/t/806121/thunderbolt-for-audio-is-this-the-next-computer-audio-standard

 

[wushuliu]

So since I have an iPurifier 2 could I just get the X-1 instead of the F-1? How big is the performance gap between X-1 and F-1?

 

[roger7]

 
Not true at all - see the test specs for the Chord DAVE - 8ps at 96k on SPDIF.  If 'technically' a straight USB to i2s was much better Chord would have included it on their statement DAVE DAC.  The excuse that they didn't because their owners are not 'DIY' or too dumb to figure it out - is absurd.

 
I don't understand. USB in Chord Dave, as in most other DACs, is just USB to i2s connection.
What I was talking about is external i2s to i2s connection between transport and DAC. Because it's not a standard, manufacturers don't want to take risk and go into trouble with different transports and their different i2s external pinouts (at least).
But those who offer top transports for their DACs often include some kind of i2s connection with fancy name. And then they claim it is the best connection between their devices (of course mostly not compatible with others DACs/transports).
I think there are 2 reasons:
1. They know exactly how to connect their transport with their transport not risking that the customers will complain that i2s doesn't work with others devices. Not risking device damage.
2. They "kindly" encourage customers to buy their entire combo (DAC and transport).
 
Examples:
You mentioned: Aqua Acoustic La Diva and La Scala - AQlink i2s
ACCUPHASE DP-900 and DC-901 - HS-link. Their transport only has coax and hs-link output. This is great encouragement.
MSB Technology: All their DACs and transports have "Pro I2S" connection
http://www.msbtech.com/products/platinumHome.php
And MSB SELECT DAC costs just $89950 in standard version...
So it's not easy to say that none of top DAC designers does not include i2s. They do if they see benefits and money.

Is i2s better than spdif/usb? IMHO, should be but all depends on implementation and other devices in chain.

 

[roger7]

A good resume of available interfaces. But I think you wanted to say that "the perfect" interface does not exist .. and it may never exist. But "the best" surely does (as in "the best sounding").
Since most Dac chips natively speak i2s, that is the shortest and simplest path to a Dac's 'heart' .. I'm no EE but simple logic says that i2s should be the best sounding. Surely it's the least convenient atm, but that's an acceptable sacrifice when you want the best sound

P.S.
most peole around here use Usb chains-of-pain with more than 5 devices/cables/etc. Doubtful that anyone cares about convenience here.

It's not so simple IMHO.
If all "shortest paths" were the best ones we wouldn't see any separated amplifiers and preamps, DACs and transports.

For computer audio i2s connection with DAC is hard to achieve.
Solution you are talking about is RPI3 + DAC+ Pro with i2s like this
https://support.hifiberry.com/hc/en-us/articles/205711451-DAC-Pro-connect-external-I2S-DACs
But it needs soldering, voids warranty and you have to know how to connect it with your DAC (of course with external i2s). You are limited to linux OS and players. I like convenience and freedom of LMS (logitech media server with hardware and software players) but there are people who prefer jplay, jriver or audirvana.
And this all is not plug and play like "Usb chains-of-pain with more than 5 devices/cables/etc". As I said before it's more for people w DIY skills, not for everyone who just want to play and listen. And can't compare before buying with your setup and send it back if you don't like it.
 
BTW: Have you got a chance to listen to such combo RPI3 + DAC+ Pro i2s to DAC and compare it with others?
 
There is a PCI-E i2s computer card: PinkFaun I2S Bridge ST
http://www.pinkfaun.nl/portal/productaanbod/dac-streaming-audio/1440-i2s-bridge
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/pinkfaun_i2s_bridge_e.html
 
Maarten van Druten at Audio Dandy at first was using this card in his htpc computer with Audio-gd Master 7 DAC. He prefered it to Audio-gd built-in usb (I think Via chip)
http://www.modelpromo.nl/PinkFaun_I2S_Bridge.htm
http://www.modelpromo.nl/Audio-GD_Master-7.htm
But after upgrading the audio-gd usb to amareno combo 384 he prefered usb connection to simplest i2s
http://www.modelpromo.nl/Audio-GD_Master7-Amanero.htm
 
So it's not so simple as "shortest path"

 

[rb2013]

  So since I have an iPurifier 2 could I just get the X-1 instead of the F-1? How big is the performance gap between X-1 and F-1?

Did a faceoff last night - the X-1 is very, very good - but the F-1 is better.
 
Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - like when you see charts with 1990 dollars - or what ever reference point is chosen - they are not percentages).  The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100
 
Here would be my current ranking and ratings obviously these are my subjective ratings YMMV - and yes I have owned all these for an extended period of time:
 
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2  170
PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen              135
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious                     130
Singxer X-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/iPur2   125
PUC2 Lite - USB power                                         110
Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen                 109
Breeze DU-U8 with Cerious Graphene                     108
Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)                             100
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)                                95
Hydra Z with LPS                                                   92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)                           85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                                        81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                                  76
Gustard U12 stock                                                 72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                                    65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                                    65
M2Tech EVO with LPS                                             60
Audiophileo 2  USB Power                                       50
M2Tech Hiface                                                       40

 

[rb2013]

   
I don't understand. USB in Chord Dave, as in most other DACs, is just USB to i2s connection.
What I was talking about is external i2s to i2s connection between transport and DAC. Because it's not a standard, manufacturers don't want to take risk and go into trouble with different transports and their different i2s external pinouts (at least).
But those who offer top transports for their DACs often include some kind of i2s connection with fancy name. And then they claim it is the best connection between their devices (of course mostly not compatible with others DACs/transports).
I think there are 2 reasons:
1. They know exactly how to connect their transport with their transport not risking that the customers will complain that i2s doesn't work with others devices. Not risking device damage.
2. They "kindly" encourage customers to buy their entire combo (DAC and transport).
 
Examples:
You mentioned: Aqua Acoustic La Diva and La Scala - AQlink i2s
ACCUPHASE DP-900 and DC-901 - HS-link. Their transport only has coax and hs-link output. This is great encouragement.
MSB Technology: All their DACs and transports have "Pro I2S" connection
http://www.msbtech.com/products/platinumHome.php
And MSB SELECT DAC costs just $89950 in standard version...
So it's not easy to say that none of top DAC designers does not include i2s. They do if they see benefits and money.

Is i2s better than spdif/usb? IMHO, should be but all depends on implementation and other devices in chain.

You make a very good point - some manufacters include i2s.  I never said that ALL top DAC designers exclide i2s external connections, only that a very strong group of designers have ommitted external i2s connection on their statement latest DACs.  It's interesting that even when a top DAC has an external i2s connection I see reviewers using SPDIF - like the 6moons review of the LaScala MK2.
 
I'm also not arguing that i2s can be slightly better then SPDIF, as BNC SPDIF is slightly better then RCA, or that AES is not slightly better then coax SPDIF.  Where I think this i2s train has left the tracks is that some see it as 'THE ONLY' proper audio connection.  USB and SPDIF, because of some technical arguements should just be consided no good.
And it your DAC, DDC, or whatever doesn't have it - it has no chance of producing great sound.  This is the MEGA-HYPE that some accuse me of.  And I just wanted to point out that many sota newest DACs, like the Chord DAVE.
 
Same goes for native DSD - as Schiit puts it:

What about DSD?
Yggdrasil won’t do DSD, no way, no how.
 
But what if I want DSD?
If DSD becomes a significant part of the market, where “significant” is defined as “more than 1% of total sales,” then we will support it via a separate dedicated DSD decoding box. Today, when it is less than 0.01% of recorded music, well, hey, we're not so interested.
 
What? But I hear DSD is the future!
Yeah, and reel-to-reel was the future in the 1970s, and it’s dead now, and DAT was the future in the 1980s, and it’s dead now, and HDCD was the future in the 1990s, and it’s dead now, and SACD was the future in the 2000s, and it’s dead now. But, let's say Sony suddenly opens their vaults and offers 30,000 DSD albums with guaranteed direct-from-DSD provenance at $5.99 each, and Apple starts streaming DSD as its de facto format for iTunes, (yes, we know, stop laughing) then hey, Yggy is fully upgradable...and then we just change it up to be the best DSD DAC out there. 
 

 
My hope is that Thunderbolt 3 will become the universal high end audio connection.  With a new internal one to replace i2s
 
BTW that post you quote me was in response this post - which I consider not accurate - I have no idea where this 50ps number came from as the OP did not post a link (all to common here - IMO ridiculous statements under mining mine with nothing to substantiate them)

  Is it not impossible to get under 50ps jitter with SPDIF because there are no SPDIF receivers under 50ps?, lowest i can find is the dir9001 or the wm8804/8805.
Technically a straight usb to i2s connection would be much better by bypassing the receiver

 

[rb2013]

  It's not so simple IMHO.
If all "shortest paths" were the best ones we wouldn't see any separated amplifiers and preamps, DACs and transports.

For computer audio i2s connection with DAC is hard to achieve.
Solution you are talking about is RPI3 + DAC+ Pro with i2s like this
https://support.hifiberry.com/hc/en-us/articles/205711451-DAC-Pro-connect-external-I2S-DACs
But it needs soldering, voids warranty and you have to know how to connect it with your DAC (of course with external i2s). You are limited to linux OS and players. I like convenience and freedom of LMS (logitech media server with hardware and software players) but there are people who prefer jplay, jriver or audirvana.
And this all is not plug and play like "Usb chains-of-pain with more than 5 devices/cables/etc". As I said before it's more for people w DIY skills, not for everyone who just want to play and listen. And can't compare before buying with your setup and send it back if you don't like it.
 
BTW: Have you got a chance to listen to such combo RPI3 + DAC+ Pro i2s to DAC and compare it with others?
 
There is a PCI-E i2s computer card: PinkFaun I2S Bridge ST
http://www.pinkfaun.nl/portal/productaanbod/dac-streaming-audio/1440-i2s-bridge
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/pinkfaun_i2s_bridge_e.html
 
Maarten van Druten at Audio Dandy at first was using this card in his htpc computer with Audio-gd Master 7 DAC. He prefered it to Audio-gd built-in usb (I think Via chip)
http://www.modelpromo.nl/PinkFaun_I2S_Bridge.htm
http://www.modelpromo.nl/Audio-GD_Master-7.htm
But after upgrading the audio-gd usb to amareno combo 384 he prefered usb connection to simplest i2s
http://www.modelpromo.nl/Audio-GD_Master7-Amanero.htm
 
So it's not so simple as "shortest path"

Bravo!  Nice post with links to back up the comments.

 
Especially this:

 But it needs soldering, voids warranty and you have to know how to connect it with your DAC (of course with external i2s). You are limited to linux OS and players. I like convenience and freedom of LMS (logitech media server with hardware and software players) but there are people who prefer jplay, jriver or audirvana.
And this all is not plug and play like "Usb chains-of-pain with more than 5 devices/cables/etc". As I said before it's more for people w DIY skills, not for everyone who just want to play and listen. And can't compare before buying with your setup and send it back if you don't like it.

Has anyone tried this RUNE player?  Not my solution for sure - not with 15,000 WAV Redbook files, another 5000 176k/32 WAV files (digitalized LPs).  I have over 72 painstakingly created playlists for Foobar.  Some a large as 3,000 files, some with just a few hundred.