[TSAVJason]

car analogies are quite popular here - that was my point

Point? Seemed your point was to point out someone's generalization

 

[up late]

Point? Seemed your point was to point out someone's generalization

i suggest that you read my post again, it contains two separate points actually. the first relates to a generalisation made in the post that i quoted, and the second included a reference to the use of car analogies in the forums.

 

[thatonenoob]

Argh the cars again. Guess I'll never look at the Jetta the same way again. It's like the letters rearrange themselves into the word "HD600".

 

[up late]

what kind of car would you liken the z1r to?

 

[ThomasHK]

He

He did post the uncompensated data, actually.

I missed it too.
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/t...e-from-ifa-2016.818846/page-699#post-13549237

Aha! Thanks, I missed that indeed. Interesting.

We have the KEMAR with antropometric ears, but not the low noise coupler. I've seen comparisons straight from GRAS between HRTF of antropometric vs. old version. Very little difference.
The low noise coupler no longer complies to the 711 standard but is very very close in its response. Jude also pointed out that the >10kHz resonant behaviour is different, but the <10kHz nothing that can explain the discrepancy seen.

 

[beowulf]

Also The Z1R is being criticised in the context of other headphones. There are tons of reasons, legitimate ones, for people to love the Z1R. The headphone is not garbage, but I guarantee that Sennheiser wouldn't put out that kind of performance at that price.

Value is relative. I had the Z1R with my HD800 S in use side-by-side and everytime I messed with the 800S it felt like a toy. The plastic, the itchy pads, the ridiculous cardboard box, the lack of super simple things like solid numbered notches for symmetrical headband adjustment. Etc.
And it cost me 1590 EUR. In that sense, the 1890 on the Z1R seemed pretty reasonable for something A LOT better built, light years ahead in materials and comfort (and overall physical design) and IMHO, much more exclusive.

Sound-wise, subjectivity makes it harder to value, plus they're too different to compare. Still, each is worth what you think its sound is worth.
But it's also not a night and day difference in value to me; Both have sonic strengths and weaknesses, neither is perfect, both can sound excellent when paired with the right source material (and equipment).

So I find that example interesting, especially because while handling those two (and the previous HD800) something I recall thinking is that it was about time Sennheiser came out with something refined like the Z1R both in form and function, and that is definitely within their reach.

 

[pietcux]

Value is relative. I had the Z1R with my HD800 S in use side-by-side and everytime I messed with the 800S it felt like a toy. The plastic, the itchy pads, the ridiculous cardboard box, the lack of super simple things like solid numbered notches for symmetrical headband adjustment. Etc.
And it cost me 1590 EUR. In that sense, the 1890 on the Z1R seemed pretty reasonable for something A LOT better built, light years ahead in materials and comfort (and overall physical design) and IMHO, much more exclusive.

Sound-wise, subjectivity makes it harder to value, plus they're too different to compare. Still, each is worth what you think its sound is worth.
But it's also not a night and day difference in value to me; Both have sonic strengths and weaknesses, neither is perfect, both can sound excellent when paired with the right source material (and equipment).

So I find that example interesting, especially because while handling those two (and the previous HD800) something I recall thinking is that it was about time Sennheiser came out with something refined like the Z1R both in form and function, and that is definitely within their reach.

But you know that the HD800 was constructed as is on purpose and the plastic is not your regular plastic the ear visions are made from Alcantara all done to get us a response light sound. The -S version is meant to even refine that sound. Compared to the HD650 ist is a much more complicated design, hence the selling price. And the Sony box is shelved as all other headphone boxes that I have or had. They all did not contribute to the sound, so what.

 

[nc8000]

But you know that the HD800 was constructed as is on purpose and the plastic is not your regular plastic the ear visions are made from Alcantara all done to get us a response light sound. The -S version is meant to even refine that sound. Compared to the HD650 ist is a much more complicated design, hence the selling price. And the Sony box is shelved as all other headphone boxes that I have or had. They all did not contribute to the sound, so what.

Well I'm sure everything relating to the Z1R is also as it is for a reason and at least to me it is not just about the sound but about the complete package inluding sound, build, materials, comfort and pride/pleasure of ownership.

We all have our different set of value criteria so nobody can say objectively and deffinately that any given object is not worth it's price.

I had the Ultrasone Signature Pro that to me also sounded excelent but I could never use it for more than an hour at a time, it was so uncomfortable and made my ears hurt.

 

[nanaholic]

But you know that the HD800 was constructed as is on purpose and the plastic is not your regular plastic the ear visions are made from Alcantara all done to get us a response light sound. The -S version is meant to even refine that sound. Compared to the HD650 ist is a much more complicated design, hence the selling price. And the Sony box is shelved as all other headphone boxes that I have or had. They all did not contribute to the sound, so what.

The HD800 is 330g whereas the Z1R is 385g the difference in weight by using the different materials is actually smaller than most think (just a few packages of sugar). And the Z1R is also constructed as is on purpose yet Sony chose to use more metal (titanium) than plastic in its construction, and the parts of the Z1R are also much more complicated (the uniquely shaped housing, the inner grill design, the larger than HD800 70mm driver, the paper filter etc), if talking construction alone the Z1R is probably equal if not more complicated than the HD800 with all the varying construction materials. So if you attribute partially the cost of the HD800 in its complex construction by extension you'll also have to acknowledge the Z1R is at least worth as much.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Atticus and Eikon sound pretty different. I would definitely give the Eikon a try, it might be much closer to your preferences. May I ask what amp you used on the Atticus? The Atticus doesn't pair particularly well with certain medium to low power SS amps. Powerful SS and tubes take it to another level though. Couldn't disagree more about built quality ... sorry. I think the build is superb. Its heavy but it distributes its weight very well on the head. The Z1R might be a little more comfortable but its not night and day. I've demoed the Z1R and the Eikon side by side and to my ears, the Eikon is the superior headphone. It is more neutral, slightly more resolving and overall, more enjoyable to listen to, at less then half the price. But that's just one man's opinion. I stand by my belief that the Z1R's price is not earned.

Have a look at my rig. It is certainly up to the task. As mentioned the DIY nature of such an expensive headphone really turned me off ZMF.

 

[rnros]

I haven't followed your conversation with the Griz, you must feel offended somehow.
So I've limited my comment to just your Beryllium comment.

I wonder. At what point will Grizzly's Utopia turn to dust so that it can be "highly toxic"?

No offenses committed or accepted. Just joking, which I thought was obvious.
However... Although I think the Focal Be design is understood to be a non-issue on this forum, I have deleted the comment to be sure that it is not taken seriously.

Beryllium has been used for decades in speaker design, typically in higher priced systems. It is used in a number of our tech devices, not just speakers and headphones.
In fact, I expressed my positive expectation for the Utopia Be design during the announcement and early release stage:
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/f...s-and-discussion.811273/page-26#post-12863322

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

 

[beowulf]

The HD800 is 330g whereas the Z1R is 385g the difference in weight by using the different materials is actually smaller than most think (just a few packages of sugar). And the Z1R is also constructed as is on purpose yet Sony chose to use more metal (titanium) than plastic in its construction, and the parts of the Z1R are also much more complicated (the uniquely shaped housing, the inner grill design, the larger than HD800 70mm driver, the paper filter etc), if talking construction alone the Z1R is probably equal if not more complicated than the HD800 with all the varying construction materials. So if you attribute partially the cost of the HD800 in its complex construction by extension you'll also have to acknowledge the Z1R is at least worth as much.

Also, the Z1R box is often said to be useless as it does not contribute to the sound. I fully agree it adds nothing to the sonic experience of course, but it's still part of the whole presentation/package/accessories and I don't see why it should not be taken into account too while comparing value for money. The product as a whole is presented consistently (in terms of design/materials/build) which cannot be said of several alternatives, some of which actually look like something DIY or out of a garage shop.

Sound is the priority, but the whole offering counts when it comes to figuring out how overpriced it is. At least it counts to me.

 

[pietcux]

Also, the Z1R box is often said to be useless as it does not contribute to the sound. I fully agree it adds nothing to the sonic experience of course, but it's still part of the whole presentation/package/accessories and I don't see why it should not be taken into account too while comparing value for money. The product as a whole is presented consistently (in terms of design/materials/build) which cannot be said of several alternatives, some of which actually look like something DIY or out of a garage shop.

Sound is the priority, but the whole offering counts when it comes to figuring out how overpriced it is. At least it counts to me.

You see I own the Z1r. I only wanted to defend the build quality of the HD800, which I sold after having it for a short period.

 

[grizzlybeast]

Value is relative. I had the Z1R with my HD800 S in use side-by-side and everytime I messed with the 800S it felt like a toy. The plastic, the itchy pads, the ridiculous cardboard box, the lack of super simple things like solid numbered notches for symmetrical headband adjustment. Etc.
And it cost me 1590 EUR. In that sense, the 1890 on the Z1R seemed pretty reasonable for something A LOT better built, light years ahead in materials and comfort (and overall physical design) and IMHO, much more exclusive.

Sound-wise, subjectivity makes it harder to value, plus they're too different to compare. Still, each is worth what you think its sound is worth.
But it's also not a night and day difference in value to me; Both have sonic strengths and weaknesses, neither is perfect, both can sound excellent when paired with the right source material (and equipment).

So I find that example interesting, especially because while handling those two (and the previous HD800) something I recall thinking is that it was about time Sennheiser came out with something refined like the Z1R both in form and function, and that is definitely within their reach.

I said performance, distortion, lack of clarity, small soundstage, wooly bass. Performance being non frequency balance related or build. In the US the difference is 1699 vs 2299. Ill give you 500 bonus dollars for the build. Then you still have much worse performance for the price. Maybe a more enjoyable sound signature but a worse performance nonetheless.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

Have a look at my rig. It is certainly up to the task. As mentioned the DIY nature of such an expensive headphone really turned me off ZMF.

Just as a brief aside (not trying to steer the topic off course), I wanted to address the perception that homemade = lower quality. I have a decent amount of woodworking experience and I assure you that the quality of Zach's work is extremely high. You must keep in mind that the driver housing itself is also made out of wood, not just the cup, unlike something like the Fostex woodies which are molded housings with a wood cup on the back. Wood is not an easy material to work with and building headphones out of the stuff is very challenging. However, I think the 100% wood construction contributes to the unique sound of the Atticus / Eikon. Zach has basically made miniature wood speaker cabinets for the ears. The design is quite impressive actually and the quality of the head band and aluminum gimbals is also extremely high. Zach basically tuned these by ear, trying out different cup dimensions, porting and dampening materials / placement until he achieved the desired sound, much like speaker designers. When you look at the amount of handwork that goes into each headphone, the ZMF's actually seem very reasonably priced, especially since Zach gives you the option to customize by choosing different woods, finishes and metal colors. If anything, the Z1R should cost less than the ZMF's because they are made in a fully automated factory with little to no handwork. Sony is able to do everything in house while Zach has to source his drivers and raw materials from outside vendors which also drives up the cost. The fact that a guy building small batch handmade products in his garage is able to beat Sony in terms of cost and performance is pretty remarkable in my opinion. The whole point of headphones is to give you sound quality that rivals speakers in a more compact and affordable package. There is no headphone that should cost more than $1200 - $1500. This idiotic pricing trend needs to stop. What Sony is charging isn't based on anything other than "Well I guess it's our flagship so we should charge X to make them seem super special." You can get away with that when your product is exceptional (Utopia, Stax 009, Sony R10). Is the Z1R $2300 exceptional? Thats up to you to decide. You are turned off by ZMF's DIY aesthetic. I'm turned off by Sony's nonsensical pricing. Different strokes I guess.