Official HIFIMAN HE1000 Impressions Thread
Apr 15, 2017 at 5:35 AM Post #3,061 of 3,817
 
  It's not necessarily just harmonic distortion that defines the spectrum of the causes for an amplifier's specific sound characteristic, but the signal corruption is clearly audible, also in defined test configurations. I've done quite a bit of tests with headphone amps in the past, since I was curious about the degree and the way amplifiers alter the sound. Now your postulated «driving ability» of an amp without any technical background is a bad argument. The Hugo's (and Mojo's and DAVE's) output stage is as capable in driving headphones as it gets. While I acknowledge a theoretical possiblity that there are technically even better headphone amps around, that doesn't change the fact that reamplifying a signal can't improve it. I leave the «driving abilty» out, since it has no meaning as long as you don't specify it. In any event, the Chord DAC output stages offer one of the main preconditions for an excellent driving ability: extremely low output impedance – guaranteeing maximum damping factor.

 
don't want to start a debate here on this, but I respectfully disagree on the above. theoretical things and practical things are unfortunately very different when it comes to reality.
 
theoretically it is true that less amplification stages = less distorsion (in the wider sense of the word, i.e. difference between the input signal and the output signal), but this is only the theory before you apply a load to your amplifier. in this sense, for example, the best way to driive a speaker is the output stage of a cd (I'm just expanding the concept to be clear).
 
when you apply a real, maybe reactive, load, things start to change. you said the Dave output is able to drive an headphones, if I read it correctly the Dave output is 1.4W @32ohm @1%THD , but there are many reports of people finding it much better to drive their HEK with the speakers taps, so maybe 5W or more.
 
and that's only if we consider THD, what about IMD? what about other dynamic distorsion? 
 
to keep the story short: my point is, depending on the load, can be true that more amplification stages = less distorsion, simply because less amplification stages THAN NECESSARY FOR THE LOAD are generating more distorsion than the theoretical one. so I have no problem in believing that the Dave can drive with authority and without "coloration" an Utopia. but from my experience HEK (and the like hps) need more "robust" amplification. 

 
Hi phaeton
 
Your objections make sense, but are still just theoretical apart from your personal impressions which contradict mine: I've never heard the HE1000 sound better than from my DAVE (and the Hugo before it). I'm confident that intermodulation distortion with Chord DACs is equally low as harmonic distortion – not sure if I've seen the figures anywhere, after all the tests show exemplary measuring results for the newer-generation Chord DACs. So what's left in terms of possibly lacking driving abilities in view of reactive loads? I've tried a few amps with Chord DACs, and in my configuration the difference is night and day in every single case in favor of the direct drive. Like with earlier posters your objections come from a starting position that differs from mine in that it doesn't take amplifier coloration and synergetic effects into account which may be responsible for the subjective superiority of the amplifier route.
 
As mentioned, my experiments have shown me that apart from gain the contribution of a headphone amp roughly consists of euphonic colorations and forgivingness. Even a low-impedance line output (Theta Pro basis II, later Bel Canto DAC2) is capable of driving uncritical headphones (the 300-Ω HD650 in my case, later the HD 800) better than any amp attached to it – in terms of all sound-quality criteria that come to mind –, irrespective of the oh so critical reactive loads. At that time I nevertheless preferred to use a headphone amp instead, as it provided a more organic and musical sound, despite the technical inferiority and lower transparency. Meanwhile that has changed fundamentally, with the Bel Canto DAC2 that I still own. Two reasons: The sound from the Theta was rather dry and overly «digital», so it was a bad choice for the unforgiving direct connection. The Bel Canto was much better in this respect, therefore I switched to the direct connection now and then. Well, meanwhile I don't listen to CDs anymore, and that goes parallel to having a free equalizer at my disposal: the one in my FiiO X5 (II) and xnor's 31-band equalizer for foobar 2000. When I switch back from the DAVE to the Bel Canto under this premise, I clearly prefer the direct connection to the detour via my formerly preferred headphone amp, the Corda Symphony.
 
There are some audiophiles – here on Head-Fi – who swear by high-efficiency speakers driven by the DAVE and even the Hugo. Chord's mastermind Rob Watts also belongs to them. They never heard their speakers sound better. That goes to show how uncritical relatively short power reserves are and how dispensable excessive power. I would like to hear it myself, but am not into speakers anymore (I was a fanatic speaker builder in the past). In any event, I firmly believe that amps are overrated. That's not to say that some don't sound clearly better and more neutral and accurate than others. I'm still a big fan of my (modified) Metaxas Solitaire Speaker amp – solely from memory.
 
Apr 15, 2017 at 1:48 PM Post #3,062 of 3,817
You said mine too is a theory. Yes, in the sense that I have never auditioned an HEK with a Dave. But I have auditioned the HEK with many amplifiers, and from my experience to exploit the full potential of these wonderful cans you need 4W or more. So if I can extrapolate form this a general rule, my experience is telling me that with 1.4W you can for sure drive the HEK, possibly with very good results, but not at full potential. FWIW I sometimes drive my HEK also with my FiiO X3 with 0.5W, good and enjoyable sound, but with my custom 300B with 5W the cans really sing, very different experience.
 
Of course, just like any extrapolation, reality can be different, and the Dave can drive te HEK just like no other 1.4W amp can. That's possible, so I agree with you, mine is only a theory, but since it matches all my other experiences, until I will audition the Dave+HEK and find it sounds superb, I will stick to my theory.
 
Just to be clear I think Dave is a great DAC and amp, this is not debatable, don't want to be misunderstood here. 
 
Apr 15, 2017 at 4:22 PM Post #3,063 of 3,817
  You said mine too is a theory. Yes, in the sense that I have never auditioned an HEK with a Dave. But I have auditioned the HEK with many amplifiers, and from my experience to exploit the full potential of these wonderful cans you need 4W or more. So if I can extrapolate form this a general rule, my experience is telling me that with 1.4W you can for sure drive the HEK, possibly with very good results, but not at full potential. FWIW I sometimes drive my HEK also with my FiiO X3 with 0.5W, good and enjoyable sound, but with my custom 300B with 5W the cans really sing, very different experience.
 
Of course, just like any extrapolation, reality can be different, and the Dave can drive te HEK just like no other 1.4W amp can. That's possible, so I agree with you, mine is only a theory, but since it matches all my other experiences, until I will audition the Dave+HEK and find it sounds superb, I will stick to my theory.
 
Just to be clear I think Dave is a great DAC and amp, this is not debatable, don't want to be misunderstood here. 

 
Well, the «theory» comment itself may have been a bit unfair, but I see that you don't get my arguments in their entirety. By leaving synergy effects and equalizing out of the equation you miss the gist of my approach. Also, what's your take on DAVE and Hugo as speaker amps? This since you stick with postulating extremely high power reserves as a necessity, which leaves me almost speachless. I never get in proximity to such figures with my DAVE (or Hugo). Most of the time I'm at –17 to –13 dB with the HE1000, despite the equalizer adding a 6 dB pad (which effectively makes –22 to –19 dB). And I consider myself a loud listener.
 
Apr 16, 2017 at 5:00 AM Post #3,064 of 3,817
I have not commented about that since I have no direct experience with the Dave, and how Dave can handle fast peak requirements. depending on the specific circuit, it is entirely possible that an amplifier can have a +3 or even +6 db undistorted peak power over the maximum RMS. and that's why I said that maybe Dave can be able to drive the HEK, unlike any other 1.4W amp I have experienced (I was not polemic nor ironic here) 
 
when you say you listen to -17 or less, that's the RMS given the gain of Dave and how high your cd/files are recorded.
 
Nelson Pass used to say that the most important part of any amplification is the first watt, even if you actually need 300W for your loudspeakers. simply because you listen for 90% of the time at the rms or even lower. this is true also for cans, scaled down of course.
 
if you are using an 85db/mW cans like the HEK (this is the real sensiblity calculated from Tyll measurements), and need to have, let's say, +30db of dynamic headroom on on top of 90db spl, for the 90% or more of the time your amplification is outputting a couple of mW but then when the peak arrives it will be clipped if you don't have enough headroom. is this clipping audible? maybe not, sometimes fast clipping are not audible at all, but for sure it is much better to have an undistorted peak. and this is of course much more important and audible in the lower frequencies than in the highs.that's why if you don't have enough headroom, sometime the HEK can sound sterile.
 
all that said, with all due respect and without any polemic at all (hey, after all today is easter 
beerchug.gif
) I seem to get that you too missed my (most probably badly expressed) point: an amplifier driven to its limit tipically shows a worse performance than the very same amplifier driven to 10% of its limit.
 
so even if 1.4W is fully enough for HEK (and IME it's not, but let's say), if you use only Dave you are using your Dave very close to max specs, so let's say 1% THD (it's just an example for the sake of the discussion). if you are using your Dave + 14W amp you are using at max 10% of the max specs of both (much less for the Dave), so actually your total THD wil lbe much less using more amplification stage!! that's why I said more stages = less distorsion, depending on the load.
 
so in this scenario if you like more the Dave alone, you are saying that you like more the sound with the small distorsion figure introduced by Dave. this is not bad at all, on the opposite this is why many people (including me) do like the tipical sound of single ended tubes 
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of course, the implicit assumption of the above is that the quality of the 14W amplifier must be at least equal to the quality of the amp section of the Dave, and that's a strong requirement, I know. 
 
Apr 17, 2017 at 11:07 AM Post #3,065 of 3,817
That's not enough. We're running in circles. For some reason you don't manage to take note of the main arguments of my approach: using a linearised sound transducer as a reference for testing amplifier accuracy and neutrality for the sake of avoiding synergy and masking effects in the form of euphonic colorations. I have tested your approach extensively, and the results finally made me discard it in favor of the scenario discribed above several times. I understand that it's hard to question the own approach if it has led to a pleasing result, but I'd have expected more flexibility nonetheless. So I give up.
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Apr 17, 2017 at 11:41 AM Post #3,066 of 3,817
For the rest of us, we (at least I) get both your points. You have reached the point most often seen in political/religious/cable discussions, where everyone just talks past each other.
 
Apr 17, 2017 at 11:46 AM Post #3,067 of 3,817
It's not enough, We re running in circle, with close mind and unflexible until we don't say you are right!!
From your profile and what you wrote (Meier corda?) You tried a couple of amps that yes, the Hugo and Dave amps are better!
Did you ever tried to connect them to the speaker taps? If yes: of which amp?
Did you tryto connect to a totl powerful amp? If yes: which amp?
Did you tryto a/b between Hugo and Hugo dac+amp? If yes: which amp?
 
Apr 17, 2017 at 1:20 PM Post #3,068 of 3,817
It's not enough, We re running in circle, with close mind and unflexible until we don't say you are right!!
From your profile and what you wrote (Meier corda?) You tried a couple of amps that yes, the Hugo and Dave amps are better!
Did you ever tried to connect them to the speaker taps? If yes: of which amp?
Did you tryto connect to a totl powerful amp? If yes: which amp?
Did you tryto a/b between Hugo and Hugo dac+amp? If yes: which amp?

 
Speaker taps: Audioanalyse A50 (class A), BEL 1001, Rotel RB980. Nothing special to my ears and certainly not better than headphone amps – more colored, less refined. If you like a «big sound» at any cost, it may be for you, though.
TOTL powerful headphone amps (not sure if the term TOTL applies in each case): sft DynaMight, Larocco HeadCode DM, Rudistor RP5 cav, Mapletree EAR++ III (with Black Gate caps). Almost forgotten: Corda Symphony, the best of the bunch in terms of neutrality and according to my sonic ideals, maybe on par with the HeadCode in terms of transparency.
Hugo direct-drive compared with via Meier Audio Symphony and Concerto, Mapletree EAR++ II. Moreover: Theta Pro basic II, Benchmark DAC 1, Bel Canto DAC2, Dodson DA-217 MkII and McCormack UDP-1 direct-drive compared with via a variety of headphone amps.
 
And now tell me how much time you have spent with exploring the sound of amplifiers systematically, particularly using an equalizer for linearizing the headphone meant to be driven. Adjusting the EQ curve for either variant is of course allowed if not mandatory. You certainly know meanwhile that this is the clue of my approach – for excluding synergetic colorations and general forgivingness to tonal flaws at the price of affected transparency. But none of the previous posters has found it necessary to take this fundamental feature worth considering in their counter arguments.
 
Apr 17, 2017 at 4:35 PM Post #3,069 of 3,817
so this is why:
yes i agree: the amp you tried are nothing special and according to the amps that you are refering to: he1000 sound better straight from hugo , and i guess the dave amp section even more!
i actually think that Audioanalyse A50 doesn t even exist..
 
eq wise, i use dirac in my speaker setup, getting big improvement
i like sometimes he1000 with the loudness of my lux550ax, much easier than boost 3db or 6db on 50hz from the dsp, but i actually prefer change headphone when i listen to music that need it ,
like electronics, or i change source using the turntable if i want a warmer sound
 
i would like to know how you measure the fr of the headphone, and how you know you are "linearizing" them, and not just let them play as you like , so adding your personal coloration and in this i can see why people like to adjust the sound according to my fi and there is nothing bad in it
so why buy he1000, you can just get a cheper headphone and equalize them or "linearize" as you like!
again: for everybody reading
free to get an hugo, it s a great dac, i m using it from when it s out and i still dont feel the needs to upgrade or whatever, but saying it s the best match amp wise for he1000, he6. hd800, lcd2, lcd3, it s a wrong and misleading message
 
Apr 17, 2017 at 6:56 PM Post #3,070 of 3,817
  so this is why:
yes i agree: the amp you tried are nothing special and according to the amps that you are refering to: he1000 sound better straight from hugo , and i guess the dave amp section even more!
i actually think that Audioanalyse A50 doesn t even exist..
 
eq wise, i use dirac in my speaker setup, getting big improvement
i like sometimes he1000 with the loudness of my lux550ax, much easier than boost 3db or 6db on 50hz from the dsp, but i actually prefer change headphone when i listen to music that need it ,
like electronics, or i change source using the turntable if i want a warmer sound
 
i would like to know how you measure the fr of the headphone, and how you know you are "linearizing" them, and not just let them play as you like , so adding your personal coloration and in this i can see why people like to adjust the sound according to my fi and there is nothing bad in it
so why buy he1000, you can just get a cheper headphone and equalize them or "linearize" as you like!
again: for everybody reading
free to get an hugo, it s a great dac, i m using it from when it s out and i still dont feel the needs to upgrade or whatever, but saying it s the best match amp wise for he1000, he6. hd800, lcd2, lcd3, it s a wrong and misleading message

 
I halfways expected that you would call the listed amps «nothing special». Why are you saying the Audioanalyse A50 doesn't exist? Are you accusing me of lying? If so, say it loud and clear, please! I'm sure it isn't produced anymore, but that doesn't mean it has never existed.
 
Well, most of the Hugo users who swear by adding amps don't add any more «special amps» and nevertheless find the sound clearly better with the amp. Testing about 25 headphone amps during my headphone-listening career should suffice to come to a definitive conclusion, especially when the result is so clear every time. It's a cheap trick postulating the amps you've tried as the only ones satisfying high demands. Actually I really wonder what you think about the fact that Rob's own approach is the very same as mine, for the same reason, the only difference being that he has chosen a smooth and full sounding headphone and renounces equalizing. BTW, I'm not imitating Rob, I've practised the direct path long before I owned Chord gear and cared about the company (you may find corresponding old posts). He sais: «Some people like harmonic distortion.» That's exactly what applies in this case in my book, and it fully corresponds to my experience. For instance after replacing a Conrad Johnson PV6 preamp with a carefully hand-populated switched attenuator I was very disappointed at the start, because the music now sounded like coming from a bad amp. This was during my speaker-builder years, and I had just found a very satisfying crossover-network tuning for the two-way system with homegrown fiberglass tweeters. Well, at least so I thought, before the preamp swap. It has to be noted that the fourth-order filters I preferred make the tonal balance particuarly sensitive to imperfections. It soon turned out that more and finer fine-tuning was necessary, and the culprit was the now missing forgivingness from the tube amp. This was one of the several occasions that has tought me: The purer the signal, the more critical the tonal flaws in the chain, of which the sound trasducer's tonal balance may be the most critical in most cases. In any event, after days or weeks of dealing with the now preamp-less speaker system the sound had become better than it ever was – thanks to the purer signal, I'm sure.
 
I'm not saying the Hugo be the best DAC or amp for the HE1000, just that adding an amp will corrupt the signal and make it impossible to get the best out of it. This under the premise that you want optimal accuracy and transparency and do some adjusting of the tonal balance by other means than amplifier colorations. The Hugo alone delivers enormous clean power up to «ultraviolet» and above, I for one almost exclusively use the range between light blue and dark blue – and this with a 6 dB padding from the equalizer. That said, I normalize all my recordings during crossfeeding (indispensable for my ears), so some of them would possibly require a higher setting in the original state (while with a minority it's the opposite).
 
For equaliizing my headphones I mostly use Inner Fidelity's graphs as a rough guideline, but always look at other sources s well – it's good to have a wide range of measurements at your disposal. It wouldn't make any sense to measure them myself once again. However, now's the point where the great work begins. Equalizing headphones to your own ears can only be done by careful and extensive tuning. And that takes weeks and months in my case (that's nothing compared to my speaker tuning!) – because it's easy to find further improvements every second day, at least at the beginning. Nowadays the periods where I don't make any have become quite long, and they have become comparably minute. It's a good and a bad thing to have four pairs of headphones of almost identical quality at my disposal. The bad thing is that it's easy to get dissatisfied with the one headphone's tuning again due to the things the other one does better. The good thing is that this ongoing «competition» brings a lot of good inspiration among them or their EQ curves, resp. You can get some ideas of the constant quest for improvements from the several EQ curves published in my «Default» picture gallery. The latest curve, valid since a few weeks, looks like this. Yes, the deviation from the one from early February is rather small, but audible and essential to my ears. Note that it applies to a modified HE1000 with Silver Dragon cable driven by a DAVE. The curve for a Hugo would imply a subtle tilt in favor of low frequencies. I'm aware that not everybody has the necessary patience for this tuning work. So if you'd like a simpler way to get virtually the same (without the individualizing), SonarWorks promises to deliver it (no personal experience with it, though).
 
So why do I have four relatively expensive headphones (the two electrostats are partly DIY, have airplane plywood housings trimmed for minimal inner reflections with angled Lambda and Signature Pro drivers) instead of one cheaper pair if I equalize anyway? This question shows that you have no idea of careful equalizing, and your statements above look like alibis instead of detailed descriptions of your equalizing attempts. In any event as if you were using bass and treble controls, more or less. That's not what I call linearizing a headphone to make it compatible with the direct drive and the corresponding unforgivingness to tonal flaws. You have never equalized two headphones to make them sound as similar as it gets, right? In fact that's my constant quest – in my attempt to make my quartet sound as neutral and natural as possible to my ears. But as successful as I feel by doing so meanwhile, they don't sound the same. Far from it. Each pair has its unique characteristics and qualities, despite very similar tonal balance. All in all I value the HE1000 the most. It's the most accurate and acoustically most open headphone for me. That makes it all the more prone to suffer from its own tonal flaws (in its original state and unequalized). It's a pity that the misconception this post is about hampers its sonic potential to quite a considerable degree – to its supporters and the ones who believe them. You've asked how I know that my settings lead to a neutral tonal balance. I don't really know for certain, but neutrality as a theoretical ideal in practice for me is just another word for a sound as smooth and nevertheless as biting as possible if the recording calls for it. Of course the timbre of acoustic instrument is the most important test criterion, particularly large classical orchestras. Without existing frequency-response curves I would have to err much longer in my trial-and-error attempts than I already have, so I'm thankful for this guideline, which I don't follow blindly, though. The Inner Fidelity curves are just a rough interpretation of the perceived tonal balance and moreover quite misleading, as the high-frequency drop-off most graphs show seems to be a desired characteristic, and since the curves are called «normalized», they should actually show a much more even treble (this just as an example for the limited reliability).
 
So what are your power-requirement arguments worth? I see nothing but assumptions, no facts about the Hugo and «weaker» amps being unable to properly drive the HE1000 without exessive harmonic distortion due to operation at their upper limit, causing dynamics or peak limitations. It's all deduced from your listening impressions alone. My own listening habits with Hugo and DAVE effectively exclude an operation at the upper limits (note the blue to dark blue), but I don't know how loud you listen. Well, even if I turn the volume up to levels which I'd never listen to for longer than a few seconds or minutes (let's say at ultraviolet), the sound doesn't change one bit, I get the full spectrum down to the lowest lows and the highest highs in its full glory, exemplarily clean and transparent and as dynamic and controlled as it gets. No amp I attach to it can do the same to the same degree.
 
Apr 18, 2017 at 5:27 AM Post #3,071 of 3,817
  i'll look forward to hearing about the pairing with the Trilogy Audio 931.  However when i upgrade I think i'll lean towards a balanced option.
 
And "soup" is exactly what it sounds like!  Some gourmet soup, but soup nonetheless.

 
Well, I've had the 931 for the Easter weekend, it's a huge upgrade on the Lyr 2, but something just wasn't right, the synergy between the Bifrost Multibit and Trilogy Audio 931 was not good. I went to take it back to Highend Headphones this morning; wondering where to go, it is looking like both an amp and a DAC upgrade. I was thinking of what to get, where to go, balanced, SE? I spoke to Paul and he suggested the Chord 2Qute paired with the 931, SE from start to finish.
 
I've been home about half hour, 2Qute drivers installed, 931 powered back up, barely enough time for either to warm up and holy $hit, the 2Qute blows the Multibit out of the water. Everything just feels more organic, more layered - far better, smoother presentation, just altogether more enjoyable to listen to.

I think I'm going to put in my order for the 931 and pick up a 2Qute as soon as my budget will allow. 
 
Apr 18, 2017 at 7:11 PM Post #3,072 of 3,817
   
Wow! So much emotion! I must confess that I have a hard time dealing with irrationality, so I'm glad our «dialogue» is coming to an end.


Have you ever tried the MicroZOTL 2 as a headphone amplifier?  Just asking...
evil_smiley.gif

 
Apr 18, 2017 at 7:29 PM Post #3,073 of 3,817
 
  Wow! So much emotion! I must confess that I have a hard time dealing with irrationality, so I'm glad our «dialogue» is coming to an end.


Have you ever tried the MicroZOTL 2 as a headphone amplifier?  Just asking...
evil_smiley.gif

 
No, unfortunately not, the same goes for the HeadAmp GS-X Mk2 – two amps with excellent reputation. If I had any demand for a headphone amp, they would be on my list. On the other hand, where I live I can't audition them, and I'd have a hard time buying them blind. Well, as it looks I won't need a headphone amp anymore in my life... Maybe if I would pull the trigger for buying a Susvara, which I doubt. It would mean giving up 75% of the improvement over the HE1000 in the form of the loss through the additional amplification stage.
 
Apr 19, 2017 at 9:03 PM Post #3,074 of 3,817
Well, I've had the 931 for the Easter weekend, it's a huge upgrade on the Lyr 2, but something just wasn't right, the synergy between the Bifrost Multibit and Trilogy Audio 931 was not good. I went to take it back to Highend Headphones this morning; wondering where to go, it is looking like both an amp and a DAC upgrade. I was thinking of what to get, where to go, balanced, SE? I spoke to Paul and he suggested the Chord 2Qute paired with the 931, SE from start to finish.

I've been home about half hour, 2Qute drivers installed, 931 powered back up, barely enough time for either to warm up and holy $hit, the 2Qute blows the Multibit out of the water. Everything just feels more organic, more layered - far better, smoother presentation, just altogether more enjoyable to listen to.


I think I'm going to put in my order for the 931 and pick up a 2Qute as soon as my budget will allow. 
How does the 2Qute compare to the Hugo and are there any reviews of the Trilogy Audio 931? I understand it's only available in England.
 
Apr 19, 2017 at 9:09 PM Post #3,075 of 3,817
N
Well, I've had the 931 for the Easter weekend, it's a huge upgrade on the Lyr 2, but something just wasn't right, the synergy between the Bifrost Multibit and Trilogy Audio 931 was not good. I went to take it back to Highend Headphones this morning; wondering where to go, it is looking like both an amp and a DAC upgrade. I was thinking of what to get, where to go, balanced, SE? I spoke to Paul and he suggested the Chord 2Qute paired with the 931, SE from start to finish.

I've been home about half hour, 2Qute drivers installed, 931 powered back up, barely enough time for either to warm up and holy $hit, the 2Qute blows the Multibit out of the water. Everything just feels more organic, more layered - far better, smoother presentation, just altogether more enjoyable to listen to.


I think I'm going to put in my order for the 931 and pick up a 2Qute as soon as my budget will allow. 




Has anyone paired the Hugo with the Violectric HPA V281 amp and the HEKv2???

There is no place on the East coast of USA to audition the Trilogy Audio 931.
 

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