[Music Alchemist]

  Sorry this is not meant to be an attack on you in particular, but I'm getting pretty tired of the recurring theme on this forum:
 
1. New product gets announced
2. Everyone says it should be cheaper even though they have never seen or heard it
3. Repeat step 2 for at least a dozen pages.  Maybe 50.
4. Product gets released and a few buyers share their thoughts.
5. Everyone else continue repeating step 2 for a good 6 months until they lose interest, then thread actually becomes useful.
 
Edition 6 thread blew up massively with complaining in a few days - the thread got locked after a dozen pages of complaining because not a single person had heard it yet.  
 
People sharing their perception of value without any knowledge of how the product performs is so unhelpful it's not funny.

 
I think most serious audiophiles are sick of that pattern. Makes me wish Head-Fi had that impressions tag feature you mentioned awhile back so people could load only actual impressions without having to sift through everything else.

 

[Jozurr]

So the sweet spot for pricing is a matter of opinion, but you feel like they should be priced in your interpretation of where the sweet spot is, because that's what you reckon.  

And you haven't heard them.

I bet if they were announced at $1800 you would be calling BS saying they should be $1000 because if they did that, they'd sell twice as many...


Sorry this is not meant to be an attack on you in particular, but I'm getting pretty tired of the recurring theme on this forum:

1. New product gets announced
2. Everyone says it should be cheaper even though they have never seen or heard it
3. Repeat step 2 for at least a dozen pages.  Maybe 50.
4. Product gets released and a few buyers share their thoughts.
5. Everyone else continue repeating step 2 for a good 6 months until they lose interest, then thread actually becomes useful.

Edition 6 thread blew up massively with complaining in a few days - the thread got locked after a dozen pages of complaining because not a single person had heard it yet.  

People sharing their perception of value without any knowledge of how the product performs is so unhelpful it's not funny.

I agree that I have not heard it. What I reckon the sweet spot is based entirely on new products where majority (not all) people dont complain about pricing. As mentioned, see the Z1R thread for people admiring Sony for pricing it so well. Another example is the Ethers. Or the HD800S. Do you see a pattern? These are supposed flagships and some consider them the best phones they have heard. It is my opinion that that range is the sweet spot and I am giving some examples.

Do you think $3K is that spot where majority people dont complain about pricing? maybe you too can voice that opinion and back it up, no problem. Then Abyss will have two opinions to take into consideration. When a theme like complaining about pricing exists for a certain range and not for another, there is an important message to take away from that, rather than simply discrediting all feedback.

My first comment started with pointing out that they might price themselves out of the market, and if possible to not do that taking into consideration all factors. To simply say that it is impossible for Abyss to price it any lower, not knowing anything better than anyone else is also defending something baselessly.

I do enjoy the Abyss sound and look forward to hearing the Diana, specially considering the fact that they have a more traditional wearing mechanism.

 

[TWerk]

   
Call it what you will, people are trying to construct logical arguments to convince other people of their point of view.  On this topic, I believe that's about as likely as converting someone to your religion.
 
I'd argue that to justify the pricing of any headphone, you'd need to see and feel and (most importantly) hear the thing.  The BOM is only one component of that justification for me.  I only know of one manufacturer who proudly proclaims that all their pricing is a function of cost, in which case the BOM will justify the pricing to an extent (obviously markup is always debatable).  Beyond that, I don't think anyone is justifying final pricing by BOM alone.  
 
But I do think that sourcing all parts locally is a great way to increase the price of the BOM significantly.  It's no secret these days that certain commodities in the US are significantly more expensive than other places.  And limiting yourself not just to the US but to your local area further reduces the competition for good pricing (and quality I might add).
 
Anyways, sure we'd all like for the $2k+ price bracket to go away.  But barring that, comparing it to other headphones in the price range I think is the best way to justify the price IMHO.  I know someone who owns an Abyss and heard the Diana and based on his feedback, I suspect this will do well against other $3k headphones.

 
Do you guys not think there is some "price skimming" going on with these new headphone releases? (I think that's what they called it at business school).
 
They release at a high price and the early adopters who have the money for it, pay it. Then, they can adjust pricing as necessary and offer sales, holiday discounts, etc, and eventually go for a bigger market capture. You can always create discounts, but once the retail price is out, it's locked and value only falls from there.
 
Basically, they can release at a high price, catch the people who will pay it and profit the most from those initial sales, and eventually adjust it down as time goes on to maximize overall profit.
 
Ultimately though, the market decides because if a company releases something that doesn't sound so good at a high price and there are lots of other good/better options out there, it will not be a very successful and profitable release. I think there is still incentive to release good value products to be competitive in an ever increasingly saturated market filled with good options.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Do you guys not think there is some "price skimming" going on with these new headphone releases? (I think that's what they called it at business school).
 
They release at a high price and the early adopters who have the money for it, pay it. Then, they can adjust pricing as necessary and offer sales, holiday discounts, etc, and eventually go for a bigger market capture. You can always create discounts, but once the retail price is out, it's locked and value only falls from there.
 
Basically, they can release at a high price, catch the people who will pay it and profit the most from those initial sales, and eventually adjust it down as time goes on to maximize overall profit.
 
Ultimately though, the market decides because if a company releases something that doesn't sound so good at a high price and there are lots of other good/better options out there, it will not be a very successful and profitable release. I think there is still incentive to release good value products to be competitive in an ever increasingly saturated market filled with good options.

 
That happens with some headphones, but look at the history of the only Abyss headphone released so far: the AB-1266. In 2013 it was $5,495, and it's the same price now. They did also make a lite package available for $4,495, which is the same headphone but with less accessories. But that's not the same as charging less for the same thing later. I'm not worried about price skimming happening with Abyss.

 

[ericr]

Wow!

It's amazing this thread hasn't been locked.

 

[Jozurr]

   
That happens with some headphones, but look at the history of the only Abyss headphone released so far: the AB-1266. In 2013 it was $5,495, and it's the same price now. They did also make a lite package available for $4,495, which is the same headphone but with less accessories. But that's not the same as charging less for the same thing later. I'm not worried about price skimming happening with Abyss.

 
Agreed. I haven't even seen sales on their headphones or any discounts that I know of. Also, compliments where they are due: Their build quality is pretty stellar and now it seems with the Diana that comfort will be too. I've also not heard of their headphones failing.
 
I hope they have working models at Canjam SoCal so we can get some impressions. So gutted that I wont be able to make it. Knowing abyss, I am excited to find out how they sound. 

 

[mulder01]

   
Do you guys not think there is some "price skimming" going on with these new headphone releases? (I think that's what they called it at business school).
 
They release at a high price and the early adopters who have the money for it, pay it. Then, they can adjust pricing as necessary and offer sales, holiday discounts, etc, and eventually go for a bigger market capture. You can always create discounts, but once the retail price is out, it's locked and value only falls from there.
 
Basically, they can release at a high price, catch the people who will pay it and profit the most from those initial sales, and eventually adjust it down as time goes on to maximize overall profit.
 
Ultimately though, the market decides because if a company releases something that doesn't sound so good at a high price and there are lots of other good/better options out there, it will not be a very successful and profitable release. I think there is still incentive to release good value products to be competitive in an ever increasingly saturated market filled with good options.

 
I think the best advertised deal I have seen on the Abyss (AB-1266) was about 10% off?... But if you ask your retailer nicely you can probably snag yourself a similar deal anyway.  I think I got mine for roughly that at the time I bought my pair.
 

I agree that I have not heard it. What I reckon the sweet spot is based entirely on new products where majority (not all) people dont complain about pricing. As mentioned, see the Z1R thread for people admiring Sony for pricing it so well. Another example is the Ethers. Or the HD800S. Do you see a pattern? These are supposed flagships and some consider them the best phones they have heard. It is my opinion that that range is the sweet spot and I am giving some examples.

Do you think $3K is that spot where majority people dont complain about pricing? maybe you too can voice that opinion and back it up, no problem. Then Abyss will have two opinions to take into consideration. When a theme like complaining about pricing exists for a certain range and not for another, there is an important message to take away from that, rather than simply discrediting all feedback.

My first comment started with pointing out that they might price themselves out of the market, and if possible to not do that taking into consideration all factors. To simply say that it is impossible for Abyss to price it any lower, not knowing anything better than anyone else is also defending something baselessly.

I do enjoy the Abyss sound and look forward to hearing the Diana, specially considering the fact that they have a more traditional wearing mechanism.

 
Value is definitely up to the purchaser to decide as you said earlier.  I thought the normal Abyss price was just crazy at first, but when I went to a hifi show to give them a second audition, I was comparing them to a large number of 2 channel systems and found their advertising - "$100,000 speaker system in a can" to be true (at least to my ears).  So for me, to be able to spend USD $7k and get the sound of a 6 figure system, that seemed like excellent value.  So if the Diana is not too far behind the Abyss, and is on par with or better than the rest of the headphones in a similar price bracket then yeah I suppose $3k is reasonable.  But I can't really make that call because I haven't heard it.

 

[Jozurr]

   
I think the best advertised deal I have seen on the Abyss (AB-1266) was about 10% off?... But if you ask your retailer nicely you can probably snag yourself a similar deal anyway.  I think I got mine for roughly that at the time I bought my pair.
 
 
Value is definitely up to the purchaser to decide as you said earlier.  I thought the normal Abyss price was just crazy at first, but when I went to a hifi show to give them a second audition, I was comparing them to a large number of 2 channel systems and found their advertising - "$100,000 speaker system in a can" to be true (at least to my ears).  So for me, to be able to spend USD $7k and get the sound of a 6 figure system, that seemed like excellent value.  So if the Diana is not too far behind the Abyss, and is on par with or better than the rest of the headphones in a similar price bracket then yeah I suppose $3k is reasonable.  But I can't really make that call because I haven't heard it.

 
Thats fair enough I suppose.
 
@Joe Skubinski : Would you be willing to share the inner dimensions of the ear cups?

 

[Music Alchemist]

Wow!

It's amazing this thread hasn't been locked.

 
Why?

 

[Beagle]

 
 
1. New product gets announced
2. Everyone says it should be cheaper even though they have never seen or heard it
3. Repeat step 2 for at least a dozen pages.  Maybe 50.
4. Product gets released and a few buyers share their thoughts.
5. Everyone else continue repeating step 2 for a good 6 months until they lose interest, then thread actually becomes useful.
 

 
A year later the "new product" is selling for half price because nobody bought it at regular price. Happens a lot.

 

[ericr]

Looking backwards through this thread for a couple of pages and I've learned quite a bit!  Such as how product pricing works in retail distribution, why materials costs are / are not important in judging product pricing, about msrp and "price skimming", how some are angry at $3000 headphones and how others justify products at these price points; along with a debate on where the sweet spot for headphones is (or should be), etc.
 
Unfortunately, the only thing I really know about the actual headphone is the price.
 
Not sure how others define off-topic, but it sure feels so to me.

 

[mulder01]

   
A year later the "new product" is selling for half price because nobody bought it at regular price. Happens a lot.

 
Ok, name 'lots of products' that are now half their launch price.  Just can't imagine it happening with the Diana or Abyss.  Especially with how long the Abyss has been out now.  It has gone UP in price in Australia...
 

  Looking backwards through this thread for a couple of pages and I've learned quite a bit!  Such as how product pricing works in retail distribution, why materials costs are / are not important in judging product pricing, about msrp and "price skimming", how some are angry at $3000 headphones and how others justify products at these price points; along with a debate on where the sweet spot for headphones is (or should be), etc.
 
Unfortunately, the only thing I really know about the actual headphone is the price.
 
Not sure how others define off-topic, but it sure feels so to me.

 
Pricing is all that ever gets discussed in a thread for a new product that nobody has heard.  I think they only lock it if it gets out of hand like on the Ed 6 thread.

 

[Beagle]

   
Ok, name 'lots of products' that are now half their launch price.  

 
HD600, HD650, HD700, HD598, Martin Logan Mikros, lots of Pioneers, TH900, Koss ESP950.....etc

 

[TWerk]

Yep a lot more to add - 
 
HE400, HE500, TH600, Ultrasone Pro900, Fidelio X1/X2, Bayer 770/990, Denon AD600, tons of IEMS...
 
There's a ton of examples of this, a lot more.
 
The best thing you can do if you want to save money is stick with the headphones that have been on the market awhile and not grab the newest releases.
 
Oh yeah, or just grab some VE monks and be done.

 

[elwappo99]

 
 
I think most serious audiophiles are sick of that pattern. Makes me wish Head-Fi had that impressions tag feature you mentioned awhile back so people could load only actual impressions without having to sift through everything else.

 
I totally agree. Head-fi's threads are filled up with too many people posting comments that are hard to sift through. 
 
Though, I don't think there needs to be a specific function. I think self restraint from members for the following would keep things simple.
 
1. Comments or recommendations on headphones on headphones/equipment that haven't been heard
2. Speculation
3. Hype
4. Any comment that doesn't contribute to a meaningful conversation.
5. Posting the same comment/hype about your latest purchase.