[wuaffiliate]

This thread seems to be complaining more about the gap of time between buying good cans, and a good amp. It is a transition period for most logical people, i will read and intake the information from these forums because many posters here are quite knowledgeable.

The problem though is that personal experience and doing your own upgrade curve (bad to good amps) is far better than just taking some random person on the internets opinion on what amp should go with what cans.

If i lived my life by reading what other people say and only doing that, i wouldn't be nearly as awesome as i am. Which is a great metaphor for becoming an audiophile/head-fi junkie in my opinion.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuaffiliate /img/forum/go_quote.gif This thread seems to be complaining more about the gap of time between buying good cans, and a good amp. It is a transition period for most logical people, i will read and intake the information from these forums because many posters here are quite knowledgeable.

It's not primarily about that, especially when it started. It's about claiming headphones are operating at or near their best when using sources and amps that are unable to deliver the necessary power and fidelity.

For instance, just now, I was wondering if the sound card argument was turning into one where one side is trying to demonstrate that Hi-Fi PC sound cards can deliver sound and power to a pair of cans of comparable fidelity as a stand alone headphone amp with a specialised, very good power supply and source. When this sort of thing happens, you may well have someone reading who can afford either option, who then decides to go the more economic route since afterall, they perform just as well (we know how much snake oil abounds) and the cash can be saved for other purposes.

The advantage/disadvantage of a solution needs to be very clearly and accurately put forward. It's not to be made out to be more than it really is.

The problem is that some here are a lot more comfortable if they feel that their budget solutions are comparable to more expensive ones. Some here are a lot more comfortable if they feel that their portable, all purpose solutions since they may not be able to afford more than a single solution, are comparable in performance to very good non-portable desktop units. It's this sort of denial that started the thread.

For instance, I own a P51 Mustang. It will not drive any of my full cans as well as my Ultra Desktop Amp. Quite a bit of the sound fidelity is lost and this worsens with the inefficiency of the cans. Of course, I couldn't help but sit in admiration and listen at what that little sucker of a portable actually does in the first place.

But after that moment of amazement, one has to get real and I can't recommend them for driving, for example, an HD650 if you're interested in really hearing what the HD650 is capable of. If you're using the P51 Mustang as a stop gap in your quest for better, then by all means, it's not that you'll hear unlistenable output. It's actually pretty good. If you're happy with the quality as is, then no one will bother you. HOWEVER, if you come on a public forum and advise someone that a P51 Mustang will bring forth all of an HD650's deepest charms, then I'll step in and challenge that opinion because it's not true.

 

[mrarroyo]

I will not get into a debate where members of both sides have already made up their minds. Needless to say I have heard quite a few combos over the last few years, from the dirt cheap to the insanely priced. Some amps produce a few milliamp/milliwatt versus others in the tens of watts yet I have been satisfied with far less watts/amps than most. So in closing I can not agree w/ most of the statements that you must have a desktop amp to drive dynamic cans well (not talking of the K1000 or K340 these are ... shall I say ... special).

 

[Parafeed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrackBerry9000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif One good example of a headphone not being amped properly is when someone says the 650 is veiled. When used in a proper system nothing could be further from the truth.

One of these days I'll be able to afford a proper system.....

 

[Parafeed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is no such thing as a tubey sound! That makes no sense whatsoever if you've heard more than a few tube amps. I have to seriously resist banishing offenders every time I see it posted. Talk about misinformation!

I'd characterize the tubey sound as 2nd harmonic distortion. That's generally what people are talking about when they talk in terms of a tubey sound. (Whether they know it or not.)

 

[feifan]

Alfa just had a delicious hamburger steak for $10 and tells his friend Bravo all about it.

Bravo laughs and says, "Alfa, you're ignorant if you think that that hamburger steak is anywhere as good as the $50 steak I had last night." He continues, "There's just no comparison."

Charlie, who's standing a few feet away, overhears the conversation, chuckles, and says under his breath, "Stupid wusses! How can they even begin to think that their steaks can compare with the $100 Kobe steak that I had the other day."

Delta, who happens to be passing by, overhears all of them and thinks, Uncouth beasts, all of them. How could they stand the taste of dead meat when they can have a fresh green salad instead.

 

[Lavcat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Alfa just had a delicious hamburger steak for $10 and tells his friend Bravo all about it. Bravo laughs and says, "Alfa, you're ignorant if you think that that hamburger steak is anywhere as good as the $50 steak I had last night." He continues, "There's just no comparison." Charlie, who's standing a few feet away, overhears the conversation, chuckles, and says under his breath, "Stupid wusses! How can they even begin to think that their steaks can compare with the $100 Kobe steak that I had the other day." Delta, who happens to be passing by, overhears all of them and thinks, Uncouth beasts, all of them. How could they stand the taste of dead meat when they can have a fresh green salad instead.

Your post prompted me to dig my Martin D-18 out of the case! Sound sure is sweet! It's been a while, though, and the strings are a bit corroded. What alloy should I use? And it needs tuning. Should I use my analog tuner (otherwise known as a tuning fork), or one of my digital ones? My Intellitouch runs on two 3v cells, while my Boss uses 9v or a walwart. Just how much voltage is enough?

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Alfa just had a delicious hamburger steak for $10 and tells his friend Bravo all about it. Bravo laughs and says, "Alfa, you're ignorant if you think that that hamburger steak is anywhere as good as the $50 steak I had last night." He continues, "There's just no comparison." Charlie, who's standing a few feet away, overhears the conversation, chuckles, and says under his breath, "Stupid wusses! How can they even begin to think that their steaks can compare with the $100 Kobe steak that I had the other day." Delta, who happens to be passing by, overhears all of them and thinks, Uncouth beasts, all of them. How could they stand the taste of dead meat when they can have a fresh green salad instead.

Amps are not quite the same as taste in food.

If you want solid construction, a quality case and a decent power supply, you have to pay for them. Good building technique takes labor - and the cost of hiring someone. A good case takes aluminum, steel, etc. and labor. A quality power supply involves at least one transformer, chokes, hight test resistors, and large caps. Otherwise, you can have some DC ripple and other noise appear in the amp circuit.

If you do everything right, it costs money. The only shortcut is to suppl your own labor and tools. You can't get good measurements from the minimum amount of cheap parts. Even if you do, the amp probably won't be long lived.

 

[regal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Amps are not quite the same as taste in food. If you want solid construction, a quality case and a decent power supply, you have to pay for them. Good building technique takes labor - and the cost of hiring someone. A good case takes aluminum, steel, etc. and labor. A quality power supply involves at least one transformer, chokes, hight test resistors, and large caps. Otherwise, you can have some DC ripple and other noise appear in the amp circuit. If you do everything right, it costs money. The only shortcut is to suppl your own labor and tools. You can't get good measurements from the minimum amount of cheap parts. Even if you do, the amp probably won't be long lived.

Erik, you are correct but it is also easy to fake good powersupplies, etc. There are a lot of amps out there that are asthetically top ranking and heavy that sound bad but because we are talking about psychoacoustics people love them and they sell, same applies for DAC's (even more so.)

 

[CrackBerry9000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parafeed /img/forum/go_quote.gif One of these days I'll be able to afford a proper system.....

Piles of expensive equipment don't get you synergy. Those piles are most likely wasted money without the proper cables. I love how people plug a 2 thousand dollar amp into a dollar sixty wall socket. Using a 3 dollar PC power cord and cheap interconnects or interconnects that don't add synergy to the system. To top it off most of them waste money going half way on a headphone recable and gain little or nothing. Hopefully you figure out your 650 headphones, I know I have.

 

[xnor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrackBerry9000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Piles of expensive equipment don't get you synergy. Those piles are most likely wasted money without the proper cables. I love how people plug a 2 thousand dollar amp into a dollar sixty wall socket. Using a 3 dollar PC power cord and cheap interconnects or interconnects that don't add synergy to the system. To top it off most of them waste money going half way on a headphone recable and gain little or nothing. Hopefully you figure out your 650 headphones, I know I have.

Yeah and they also listen to $5 CDs and sit in a $50 chair while listening... What cheek!

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not exactly one of my strengths. And one last peeve, as long as I'm on a roll: There is no such thing as a tubey sound! That makes no sense whatsoever if you've heard more than a few tube amps. I have to seriously resist banishing offenders every time I see it posted. Talk about misinformation! Okay, time to exit before I get too cranky. Blech.

How about "Cheap tube-amp sound"? I got the impression that it was the cheaper tube amps that had the "warm" sound. Am I wrong? OT I know...

I came back as well just to read your great reply. I reckon you need to write up your experiences for the Head-fi Quarterly.

 

[tomb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lavcat /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would say higher-voltage sound cards are the norm, at least for people on these forums. I wish ROBSCIX would speak to this. Several cards have 1/4" headphone jacks. Unfortunately all of my sound cards in house do not (I use a simple Cardas adapter). My Auzentech HomeTheater card has a discrete output buffer, however, and I am planning to mod the driving OPA627 opamps to class A with constant current devices. I have read of people who have modded linear supplies for some cards, but I doubt that there are any stock. Both Asus and Auzentech make significant claims for their sound card power supply technology. Whether it is much more than marketing hype I cannot say, but if the proof of the pudding is in the eating thereof, so far the Auzentech tastes pretty good. I have another sound card that is DC coupled. What are examples of physical limitations that cannot be overcome? Maybe XLR balanced outputs directly on the card? Or heavy transformers for an SET?

Well this all sounds interesting, but seriously, no offense, why all the focus to turn a sound card into something it isn't (a dedicated headphone amp)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ra97or But a soundcard is not a high end amp no matter how good it is, but being a source it is not so bad.

Yes, I agree with this. Originally, most sound cards were also bad as a source for the same reasons - unclean power supplies, too much interference, etc. However, there are many now that can be very good sources, even some onboard sound cards. (There were almost always professional audio versions available from early on.) I'm not sure that equates to laptops yet, but I guess that can change in the future as well.

 

[plonter]

It really depends on the headphones. the grados and the denons for example don't need a top notch amp...even a nice portable will do fine. ofcourse,a high level amp will make them even better,but probably not by a big margin.

a headphones like the sennheisers needs more power,but you got some not expensive gear that will do them justice...like the headroom ultra micro stack for example. the earmax pro tube amp also drive them fine.
what I am trying to say is, that you don't have to spend a lot of money to get good equipment...if you want the best, than it is a different story,but if you want to get only practical you can manage with a "mid to high" level of gear. but a certain amount of money has got to be spent in order to get good performance, not arguing with that.

 

[haloxt]

Yes, lavcat, how dare you mod your sound card??