[CrackBerry9000]

One good example of a headphone not being amped properly is when someone says the 650 is veiled. When used in a proper system nothing could be further from the truth. My Stello stack with upgraded cables from the wall socket to the headphone is absolutly amazing. The sound is very natural, detailed, open, extremely smooth, and does not have any over abundance of coloration in any part of the music to cause it to sound better with any one song or even genre. The upgraded power cords made the background even more quiet and the details became much more easy to disearn and at the same time the highs became smoother. There is no distortion, just natural music against a super black background. With the source off, max volume on the amp produces no noise at all. I won't be using the 650 on my Blackberry any time soon (even though I could), I enjoy (very much) the PX100II for listening to Trance over the internet on my phone.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Patience is a virtue.

Not exactly one of my strengths.

And one last peeve, as long as I'm on a roll: There is no such thing as a tubey sound! That makes no sense whatsoever if you've heard more than a few tube amps. I have to seriously resist banishing offenders every time I see it posted. Talk about misinformation!

Okay, time to exit before I get too cranky. Blech.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not exactly one of my strengths. And one last peeve, as long as I'm on a roll: There is no such thing as a tubey sound! That makes no sense whatsoever if you've heard more than a few tube amps. I have to seriously resist banishing offenders every time I see it posted. Talk about misinformation! Okay, time to exit before I get too cranky. Blech.

No such thing as the 'tube sound'??

I've been staying out of that side of the head-fi world as much as I have been the electrostatic world. My loss... perhaps, but I have to set my personal limits on this hobby. So far, those have been a couple.

Your comment makes me curious though. I can't say that I've seen it before so do you mind commenting further? You're not at all sounding grumpy.

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif And one last peeve, as long as I'm on a roll: There is no such thing as a tubey sound! That makes no sense whatsoever if you've heard more than a few tube amps. I have to seriously resist banishing offenders every time I see it posted. Talk about misinformation! Okay, time to exit before I get too cranky. Blech.

Tubes have synchronous distortion dont they vs transistors' asynchronous?

I'm pretty sure the "tubey" synonym comes from old valve equipment that would present little highs and slightly more bass. Btw

 

[Ra97oR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just want to add that the whole my headphone is loud so it's being driven well argument is in the same category of misinformation of tube amps are warm and lush, and solid state amps are analytical on this board. Just because it's sometimes true doesn't not mean it's The Truth, and in reality, examples proving the opposite are probably more plentiful. 1) If your headphones aren't capable of revealing differences, you won't hear them. Different headphones have different requirements. 2) If you've never had the opportunity to hear a specific headphone with wide variety of amps and sources, not just one or two, you might not believe there are differences, even they exist; and just because a certain headphone doesn't reveal changes in amps or sources (there are many that don't), doesn't mean others won't. You can't describe subtle differences in certain colors to someone who is colorblind. It doesn't mean others can't see them, and that they don't exist. Same thing here. I think so many of the disagreements on this board come folks battling over issues with roots in those three areas. At some point you just give up trying to say anything at all.

Totally agreed, very important points there.

 

[Lavcat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't know anything about ripple, but I'm confused reading your response to tomb because you seem to be talking about different things. You're talking about loudness, and tomb isn't. Unless I'm misinterpreting your words, you're saying that certain soundcards can drive known difficult-to-drive headphones to sufficient volumes. As far as I know, that point was never in question. I'm not a technical person, so I'll just give an example from my listening experience, so forgive if I'm missing either your or tomb's points, but here's my understanding: Let's take one of the most notorious hard-to-drive headphones, the K430s. I was certainly able to get sound from my computer soundcard, but not sufficient volume (no, I don't have one of the newer, reportedly more powerful soundcards, and I admittedly know nothing about them), and the sound was thin, flat, and disappointing. I could plug my headphones into the micro amp I had at the time, or even the jack of the Eastern Electric MiniMax cdp I had with better results, but not really. The music was louder, but really unsatisfying, though I could certainly get a taste of the K340s sound signature and the beautiful mids. I bought a Heed Canamp and a Darkvoice 336, which were $400 and $260 at the time (I have no idea what they are now), and what a difference! Not only was I able to get it way past volumes I would want, the sound quality drastically improved at normal, safe listening volumes, and I was suddenly noticing parts in the music (mostly in treble and bass) that I hadn't noticed before. I became aware of imaging, and a sense of where the instruments were placed in relationship to each other, an idea of "soundstage" and depth, etc. that were not present with other, less powerful amps. I had to turn both amps up to a certain volume (a wee bit loud, but not too loud) to hear the music like that, but it was wonderful when I did. I suddenly knew the benefit of more powerful amps with certain headphones. Jump forward about a year, and I got a SP Extreme Platinum, which I'd bought to drive K1000s single-ended since I didn't have a power amp at the time, and having heard the amp at a meet, I knew it could drive all my headphones. I thought it might be a Swiss Army knife of amps, and it still is my only full-size dynamic amp. Anyway, I plug my K340s into it, and the bass is cleaner, tighter, and with a better sense of attack and decay. That jumped right out at me, but here's the kicker: I could turn the volume down to almost inaudible levels, and every bit of music was presented as fully as it had been with the Canamp and DV, but with those, I needed to have the volume borderline loud to hear it the same. And with the SP, at the same "normal" listening level as with the Heed and DV, the K340s had a more open sound, with much better separation of notes (e.g., can hear individual notes in tympani rolls, not just the roll) and sense of balance from bass to treble (heavier mid emphasis with the DV and Heed). That experience was the first to teach me that driving a headphone "well" had very little to do with volume. Volume was just one factor, and since that time, it's never been a deciding factor for me when choosing an amp, since most amps can produce adequate volume. BTW, I ended up using the SP as a preamp to a FirstWatt F1 for the K1000s, and the best I ever heard the K340s was with jp11801's re-terminated to a 4-pin pair, using a K1000 tail and the FirstWatt. Holy moly! These headphones are seriously underrated because they are usually seriously underpowered. Can a decent desktop (DV, Heed) drive them enjoyably? Absolutely! Can it drive them well? That's debatable, but in my opinion the answer is no. Oh...and the SP could definitely drive the K1000s to sufficient volume, but also not drive them well. The K1000s definitely need a power amp to bring out their sound. Now, I just used those headphones as an easy example, but I've found the same to be true with the HD650s, K701s, and though I sold my HD800s, the limited experience I had with those headphones is pretty much the same. I don't know of anyone who would tell someone not to enjoy their headphones, if they do, from whatever they're using to drive them. Enjoy! On the other hand, it's also alright to acknowledge that sufficient volume doesn't always equate with being well-driven.

Assuredly I agree with you that sufficient volume does not always equate to being well-driven. My inference that tomb's argument is about volume was from the following paragraph of the original post I quoted, which I believe I am not taking out of context:

"One might say why would such a high-listening level be needed? Again, one of the primary ways we define "high-fidelity" is the ability to produce a wide difference between sound levels - iow, "dynamic range." Even with the prevalent sound studio producer-compressed music that many of us listen to, a 30dB swing or more is fairly common , at least with transients. Listening at very low levels, you may be able to produce this dynamic range with a Sennheiser connected to a sound card, but you're likely to miss most of the music, too - since the Fletcher-Munson curves for the human ear have the most effect at low levels."

I was talking about loudness only because tomb was. Driving known difficult-to-drive headphones to sufficient volumes was very much in question. The main topic of the post is headphone power requirements and voltage limitations of sound cards. I did not take issue with the power requirements of headphones, and I am not one to listen at very low levels. I did take issue with such statements as "This is physically impossible for a sound card to provide!" [emphasis tomb's]. I felt and still feel that this statement, and the post as a whole, are misleading, and offered a counter example.

I rather wish I had a FW.

 

[aimlink]

It would seem that how Tomb's initial post was taken is dependent on one's attitude towards it (as it always is anyway)

. It's a pity when the point of a written argument is missed in the interest of "correcting grammar, syntax and spelling". The very reason why I bought the DPS for my ultra desktop amp as a replacement for the Astrodyne PSU that it came with stock, wasn't in the interest of more volume. That would have been nutcrackingly silly.

Tomb's argument, as well as boomana's post brings across the point of it beautifully and if you ask me, this has been the central point of Tomb's argument and not the simple ability to pump up the volume.

PS// BTW, I've given Metallica's 'Black Album' a revisit after a very long time of not listening. I can't say for sure that I ever listened to it with the Ultra Desktop, but surely not with these Ed8's. It's a great CD to listen to. Compare and contrast with 'Death Magnetic' in terms of sound production!! Now this is what it's all about!!

 

[Lavcat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif It would seem that how Tomb's initial post was taken is dependent on one's attitude towards it (as it always is anyway) . It's a pity when the point of a written argument is missed in the interest of "correcting grammar, syntax and spelling". The very reason why I bought the DPS for my ultra desktop amp as a replacement for the Astrodyne PSU that it came with stock, wasn't in the interest of more volume. That would have been nutcrackingly silly. Tomb's argument, as well as boomana's post brings across the point of it beautifully and if you ask me, this has been the central point of Tomb's argument and not the simple ability to pump up the volume. PS// BTW, I've given Metallica's 'Black Album' a revisit after a very long time of not listening. I can't say for sure that I ever listened to it with the Ultra Desktop, but surely not with these Ed8's. It's a great CD to listen to. Compare and contrast with 'Death Magnetic' in terms of sound production!! Now this is what it's all about!!

Then how would you define the argument in tomb's post to which I initially replied if not volume and voltage limitations? I'm not talking about subsequent posts or other posts in this thread. I have no personal issue with tomb, but I do resent your making an analogy of my criticism with "correcting grammar, syntax and spelling".

I'd prefer the linear supply too.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lavcat /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then how would you define the argument in tomb's post to which I initially replied if not volume and voltage limitations? I'm not talking about subsequent posts or other posts in this thread. I have no personal issue with tomb, but I do resent your making an analogy of my criticism with "correcting grammar, syntax and spelling". I'd prefer the linear supply too.

I thought my wording would rub you the wrong way, and if so, I apologize. Furthermore, I do not wish to get drawn into specifics that take me away from the essential point to be made and one that you seem to agree with.

 

[tomb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lavcat /img/forum/go_quote.gif <snip> I was talking about loudness only because tomb was. Driving known difficult-to-drive headphones to sufficient volumes was very much in question. The main topic of the post is headphone power requirements and voltage limitations of sound cards. I did not take issue with the power requirements of headphones, and I am not one to listen at very low levels. I did take issue with such statements as "This is physically impossible for a sound card to provide!" [emphasis tomb's]. I felt and still feel that this statement, and the post as a whole, are misleading, and offered a counter example. I rather wish I had a FW.

Yes - well, I'm not trying to be facetious, but whether or not you hear details that exist but are not audible in other amps still has to do with loudness, but it's sufficient loudness at all frequencies and with all transients. Either the amp can amplify the frequency/transient to a sufficient "loudness" for you to hear ... or it doesn't. Some of the antonyms of loud are soft, muted, subdued, etc. - all words that can be used to describe details that are not there in one amp but exist in another.

Take the most rudimentary amplification or even radio wave microvolts into a ceramic earphone. Most of the frequencies are reduced to around the 1K level or some other midrange point. You may be able to get sufficient loudness or even turn it up to ear-splitting levels - but it's not high-fidelity.

I'm sorry if I made too strong a statement about sound cards, but seriously - is a higher-voltage sound card the norm? And does one possess a linear-regulated power supply, discrete buffers, class A bias, etc., etc.? For that matter, how many possess a 1/4" jack? The point of the example was only one attempt to illustrate that compared to a quality, dedicated headphone amp - there are physical limitations that sound cards or portable players simply can't overcome.

 

[Lavcat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif I thought my wording would rub you the wrong way, and if so, I apologize. Furthermore, I do not wish to get drawn into specifics that take me away from the essential point to be made and one that you seem to agree with.

Fair enough. Thanks.

 

[haloxt]

I used to have a ht omega halo sound card with headphone amplifier, and after I changed the psu to an earthwatts and connected it to a power conditioner I was so pleased that I got opamps to roll, but I accidentally got single channel ones and put them in dual channel sockets ^^. Compared to my desktop dac/amp several times more expensive I thought it provided excellent sound quality (with a 40 ohm headphone though, not 300 ohm

) so long as I had some things cleaning the power. I might've even sold the rest of my gear if I hadn't blown up the sound card but oh well.

 

[EYEdROP]

When I use my Sansa clip with my DT-48, it can go loud enough. But I have to crank it very high and there is not much room for dynamic peaks. Also, the distortion is higher cause the amp is being pushed so hard. But with my Yamaha receiver, there is plenty more room for volume and everything really just sounds less restricted vs. headphone output of a laptop.

 

[Ra97oR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sorry if I made too strong a statement about sound cards, but seriously - is a higher-voltage sound card the norm? And does one possess a linear-regulated power supply, discrete buffers, class A bias, etc., etc.? For that matter, how many possess a 1/4" jack? The point of the example was only one attempt to illustrate that compared to a quality, dedicated headphone amp - there are physical limitations that sound cards or portable players simply can't overcome.

Xonar line mostly runs on 12V, Essence have a 1/4 jack, Buffer is easily switch able to discrete (just dump a Burson in?)

But a soundcard is not a high end amp no matter how good it is, but being a source it is not so bad.

 

[Lavcat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes - well, I'm not trying to be facetious, but whether or not you hear details that exist but are not audible in other amps still has to do with loudness, but it's sufficient loudness at all frequencies and with all transients. Either the amp can amplify the frequency/transient to a sufficient "loudness" for you to hear ... or it doesn't. Some of the antonyms of loud are soft, muted, subdued, etc. - all words that can be used to describe details that are not there in one amp but exist in another. Take the most rudimentary amplification or even radio wave microvolts into a ceramic earphone. Most of the frequencies are reduced to around the 1K level or some other midrange point. You may be able to get sufficient loudness or even turn it up to ear-splitting levels - but it's not high-fidelity. I'm sorry if I made too strong a statement about sound cards, but seriously - is a higher-voltage sound card the norm? And does one possess a linear-regulated power supply, discrete buffers, class A bias, etc., etc.? For that matter, how many possess a 1/4" jack? The point of the example was only one attempt to illustrate that compared to a quality, dedicated headphone amp - there are physical limitations that sound cards or portable players simply can't overcome.

I would say higher-voltage sound cards are the norm, at least for people on these forums. I wish ROBSCIX would speak to this. Several cards have 1/4" headphone jacks. Unfortunately all of my sound cards in house do not (I use a simple Cardas adapter). My Auzentech HomeTheater card has a discrete output buffer, however, and I am planning to mod the driving OPA627 opamps to class A with constant current devices. I have read of people who have modded linear supplies for some cards, but I doubt that there are any stock.

Both Asus and Auzentech make significant claims for their sound card power supply technology. Whether it is much more than marketing hype I cannot say, but if the proof of the pudding is in the eating thereof, so far the Auzentech tastes pretty good.

I have another sound card that is DC coupled. What are examples of physical limitations that cannot be overcome? Maybe XLR balanced outputs directly on the card? Or heavy transformers for an SET?