[Rockwell75]

Can you explain the physical reasoning behind your claim about DD bass?

A DD is a vibrating membrane, a BA is a vibrating reed. DDs are thus more adept at "moving air" and in the process creating a tangible visceral body & weight to the low end. The best way I've heard the differences between the two driver types described is still that comment I read once from an interview with Caleb Roseneau (that I was able to give him props for in person this year in SoCal) where he said that BAs are better at describing sound and DDs are better at making you feel it. I can appreciate good BA bass in the short term but so far all my attempts to live with it in the long term have left me eventually feeling something is missing in terms of the weight, density and impact of the sound down low. I'm not saying one is intrinsically better across the board-- this is purely a personal preference thing. But I do think that by their very nature DDs provide something that BAs just cannot-- just as I feel that even the best DDs will never match BAs in terms of raw detail retrieval and articulation, which is why "reference" IEMs, which by nature need to excel at detail retrieval, layering and resolution, tend to be pure BA sets, or BA/e-stat hybrids. It is also why hybrids and tribrids have become so popular in recent years as in those setups you get the different driver types (DDs down low, BAs in the mids, e-stats up top) covering the area of the FR they most naturally excel at.

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

I wonder how the VE EXT compares to the CFA Bonneville or the Audio64 Volur. Anyone?

Funny you mentioned EXT. I have been spinning through IEMs and busted it out yesterday and paired it with 320Max and it is still outstanding. It is probably my favorite VE IEM. I definitely like it more than VE X and Aura. I might like Erlkonig or Phonix LE more, but I don't own those so I can't recall which one I like more without a/b/c test. I can say this, the EXT does need power and when pairing it with 320Max, it gets the power it needs to fire up the EST drivers to make the treble sound great. When you couple that with its tight DD bass and DD mids, it is a unique sound and I love it.

 

[PhonoPhi]

A DD is a vibrating membrane, a BA is a vibrating reed. DDs are thus more adept at "moving air" and in the process creating a tangible visceral body & weight to the low end. The best way I've heard the differences between the two driver types described is still that comment I read once from an interview with Caleb Roseneau (that I was able to give him props for in person this year in SoCal) where he said that BAs are better at describing sound and DDs are better at making you feel it. I can appreciate good BA bass in the short term but so far all my attempts to live with it in the long term have left me eventually feeling something is missing in terms of the weight, density and impact of the sound down low. I'm not saying one is intrinsically better across the board-- this is purely a personal preference thing. But I do think that by their very nature DDs provide something that BAs just cannot-- just as I feel that even the best DDs will never match BAs in terms of raw detail retrieval and articulation, which is why "reference" IEMs, which by nature need to excel at detail retrieval, layering and resolution, tend to be pure BA sets, or BA/e-stat hybrids. It is also why hybrids and tribrids have become so popular in recent years as in those setups you get the different driver types (DDs down low, BAs in the mids, e-stats up top) covering the area of the FR they most naturally excel at.

Physics is against you in these arguments about DDs vs. BAs.

DD were historically made for loudspeakers, a simplest coil and a paper membrane to get some sound reproduction.

BAs were historically made for hearing devices: very compact, with a small vibrating element.
Then, adopting BAs for audiophlie needs effectively created IEMs, as we now know them.
Adopted to IEM needs, BAs underwent all different transformations by ingenious people in the field to suit specific requirements including reproducing bass.

Here is an instructive general schematic of a BA:

Nothing in physics and engineering prevents increasing the size of the diaphragm and creating it more flexible, etc., to fully match (and/or exceed) DD air pushing.
Relevant related advances to mention are BAs firing from a side, semi-open BAs, etc.

Now, my limited bias is that DDs are like drums, and one can't play violin music (or reasonably imitate violins) using drums - more agile and responsive transducers are needed.

 

[deep2285]

The IMR_ACOUSTICS EDP
• Planar hybrid driver configuration consisting of a precision 10mm planar magnetic driver + 10mm Ultra wide band CNT ADLC dynamic driver + bone conduction motor
An iem that can go from no holds barred bass head to analytical detail monster via the 2 part nozzle tuningtuning system
As with all IMR acoustics iems a limited edition but we'll worth looking out for on the 2nd hand Market or IMRs own ebay store Pre-loved Audio.

Here I have it in combination with the Shanling H5 and Effect Audio Cadmus 8w.

This combination puts me in the room with musicians
I can almost feel the bass drum as it kicks the sound of the drum skins being struck clear and visceral.

Mids as ever with IMR iems take centre stage with sublime vocals full of emotion and de2 part
Treble crisp but not fatiguing enabling spacious soundstage with space between instruments always staying the right side of realistic presentation.

Incredible coherence helped by the bone conduction adding tactility that's rare in iems.

I have used only one IMR IEM for a few hours and for some reason, their tuning does not feel refined. There is this sense of rawness

Physics is against you in these arguments about DDs vs. BAs.

DD were historically made for loudspeakers, a simplest coil and a paper membrane to get some sound reproduction.

BAs were historically made for hearing devices: very compact, with and a small vibrating element.
Then, implementing BAs for audiophlie needs effectively created IEMs, and BAs underwent all different transformation by ingenious people in the field to suit specific requirements including bass.
Here is a general schematic of a BA

Nothing from physics and engineering prevents increasing the size of the diaphragm and to make it more flexible, etc., to fully match (and/or exceed) DD air pushing.
Related advances to mention arevBAs firing from a side, semi-open BAs, etc.

Now, my limited bias is that DDs are like drums, and one can't play violin music (or reasonably imitate violins) using drums - more agile and responsive transducers are needed.

When I read about the Subtonic Storm on their website and their explanation about Slam BA, I seriously felt that it might have a bass that can beat the reproduction of DD but from every review I have read so far, the bass on storm is great but still doesn't have the DD FEEL.

For my limited experience, as of now, I can relate to the statement that BA is excellent at describing and DD at feeling the sound. Even if the science behind it is opaque for me.

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

When I read about the Subtonic Storm on their website and their explanation about Slam BA, I seriously felt that it might have a bass that can beat the reproduction of DD but from every review I have read so far, the bass on storm is great but still doesn't have the DD FEEL.

For my limited experience, as of now, I can relate to the statement that BA is excellent at describing and DD at feeling the sound. Even if the science behind it is opaque for me.

Storm does generate excellent subbass and it slams nicely. Where it is challenged relative to a DD set like Noble Viking is that it lacks texture in the bass. So, when hearing passages with subbass or when it needs punch, it is excellent. When it is rendering rock concert music or any music requiring a grittiness in the bass, it lacks detail in the midbass texture of notes. That said, Storm bass has better than many DD bass presentations of lower quality IEMs. It just grades slightly lower in timbre and texture to the top DD sets.

 

[McCheese]

A DD is a vibrating membrane, a BA is a vibrating reed. DDs are thus more adept at "moving air" and in the process creating a tangible visceral body & weight to the low end. The best way I've heard the differences between the two driver types described is still that comment I read once from an interview with Caleb Roseneau (that I was able to give him props for in person this year in SoCal) where he said that BAs are better at describing sound and DDs are better at making you feel it. I can appreciate good BA bass in the short term but so far all my attempts to live with it in the long term have left me eventually feeling something is missing in terms of the weight, density and impact of the sound down low. I'm not saying one is intrinsically better across the board-- this is purely a personal preference thing. But I do think that by their very nature DDs provide something that BAs just cannot-- just as I feel that even the best DDs will never match BAs in terms of raw detail retrieval and articulation, which is why "reference" IEMs, which by nature need to excel at detail retrieval, layering and resolution, tend to be pure BA sets, or BA/e-stat hybrids. It is also why hybrids and tribrids have become so popular in recent years as in those setups you get the different driver types (DDs down low, BAs in the mids, e-stats up top) covering the area of the FR they most naturally excel at.

Thank you for answering. I've only heard two sets with DD bass that I felt was better than Storm's BA bass, and those were Nightjar's Singularity and Duality. Maybe BA timbre is a thing and I just prefer it.

 

[Alpexis]

Funny you mentioned EXT. I have been spinning through IEMs and busted it out yesterday and paired it with 320Max and it is still outstanding. It is probably my favorite VE IEM. I definitely like it more than VE X and Aura. I might like Erlkonig or Phonix LE more, but I don't own those so I can't recall which one I like more without a/b/c test. I can say this, the EXT does need power and when pairing it with 320Max, it gets the power it needs to fire up the EST drivers to make the treble sound great. When you couple that with its tight DD bass and DD mids, it is a unique sound and I love it.

Could you elaborate a bit more why you prefer EXT to Aura?

 

[stephenkostas]

Funny you mentioned EXT. I have been spinning through IEMs and busted it out yesterday and paired it with 320Max and it is still outstanding. It is probably my favorite VE IEM. I definitely like it more than VE X and Aura. I might like Erlkonig or Phonix LE more, but I don't own those so I can't recall which one I like more without a/b/c test. I can say this, the EXT does need power and when pairing it with 320Max, it gets the power it needs to fire up the EST drivers to make the treble sound great. When you couple that with its tight DD bass and DD mids, it is a unique sound and I love it.

Glad to hear I'm not the only EXT fan. It's one of my personal top 5, and I think its need for more power is part of the reason it didn't get the love it deserved. Too many people out there think if it doesn't sound good with an iPhone Dongle it's not any good...

 

[toranku]

A DD is a vibrating membrane, a BA is a vibrating reed. DDs are thus more adept at "moving air" and in the process creating a tangible visceral body & weight to the low end. The best way I've heard the differences between the two driver types described is still that comment I read once from an interview with Caleb Roseneau (that I was able to give him props for in person this year in SoCal) where he said that BAs are better at describing sound and DDs are better at making you feel it. I can appreciate good BA bass in the short term but so far all my attempts to live with it in the long term have left me eventually feeling something is missing in terms of the weight, density and impact of the sound down low. I'm not saying one is intrinsically better across the board-- this is purely a personal preference thing. But I do think that by their very nature DDs provide something that BAs just cannot-- just as I feel that even the best DDs will never match BAs in terms of raw detail retrieval and articulation, which is why "reference" IEMs, which by nature need to excel at detail retrieval, layering and resolution, tend to be pure BA sets, or BA/e-stat hybrids. It is also why hybrids and tribrids have become so popular in recent years as in those setups you get the different driver types (DDs down low, BAs in the mids, e-stats up top) covering the area of the FR they most naturally excel at.

One interesting thing to throw into the mix is that DDs are more leakage tolerant than BAs. BAs lose a loooooot of bass (can be -5dB or more, as shown in 5128) when the seal is even slightly weaker than optimal. While even the most seasoned of IEM veterans like to think that they can achieve optimal coupling/seal with every UIEM, the reality is that it's very difficult to get a consistently strong seal unless you really tip roll and optimise fit for every IEM you try as every IEM has a different fit and insertion depth.

There's also implementation of BA that matters a lot. A BA woofer can sound radically different when acoustic damping, tube length, crossover filtering & venting is adjusted. The same applies for DDs!

 

[Rockwell75]

Even if the science behind it is opaque for me.

I don’t think it’s that mysterious really. From Knowles’ website:

“Balanced armature drivers use an electronic signal to vibrate a tiny reed that is balanced between two magnets inside a tiny enclosure.“

When you think of what’s happening on a physical level with a “tiny vibrating reed” vs. a vibrating 10mm membrane it’s clear that one has a greater innate capacity to move air and one has a greater capacity for minute articulation, which is entirely consistent with the differences people typically report.

 

[tjzurlaaa]

Glad to hear I'm not the only EXT fan. It's one of my personal top 5, and I think its need for more power is part of the reason it didn't get the love it deserved. Too many people out there think if it doesn't sound good with an iPhone Dongle it's not any good...

This is so true! Some iems just need that extra juice

 

[stephenkostas]

Could you elaborate a bit more why you prefer EXT to Aura?

Can't speak for @HiFiHawaii808, but for me, it's the partly upper mids and treble and partly the midrange DD. Aura has more energy in that ~8-10k that I'm not a huge fan of, while EXT hits the right mix of sizzle at the top without feeling fatiguing. I also have a slight preference for EST over BA treble in general. In the bass/mids, there's something that I really love that I can't quite place about DD's in the midrange – I won't inject myself too much into the DD/BA discussion – specifically related to the timbre of guitars and basses in rock and jazz.

 

[Tristy]

Could you elaborate a bit more why you prefer EXT to Aura?

I concur with what’s been said, I much prefer EXT to what I heard from Aura, Phonix and VEX. It just sounds really unique to me in presentation and much more convincing than those other models. If a future iteration of EXT gets announced it would be a Day 0 purchase for me.

 

[MatW]

Glad to hear I'm not the only EXT fan. It's one of my personal top 5, and I think its need for more power is part of the reason it didn't get the love it deserved. Too many people out there think if it doesn't sound good with an iPhone Dongle it's not any good...

The other part of the reason is the awkward fit. I know quite a few headfiers who abandoned it because they lost the Battle of the Bulge. For me it was enough reason to not even try it.

Speaking of awkward fit. The Singularity. I received it two days ago and have been struggling to find the right fit. Small IEMs and a short nozzle, always a tricky combination for my ears. I had to resort to the 64 audio XL tips (I believe they are 16 mm...) for a solid fit.

Regarding the sound, I can see why these are so highly valued. They sound very good. Obviously the bass is very present and of high quality, but the rest of the FR is solid as well. I especially like the treble. They sound open and spacious. Nice reverb, great timbre. Very good value for money I would say. I enjoy them a lot with jazz, blues etc, but they are not the best with fast, complex metal, where the bass tends to be too dominant, not quite fast enough, and technicalities can't quite keep up with TOTL sets. But overall these get a big thumbs up from me.

 

[piotrus-g]

Physics is against you in these arguments about DDs vs. BAs.

DD were historically made for loudspeakers, a simplest coil and a paper membrane to get some sound reproduction.

BAs were historically made for hearing devices: very compact, with a small vibrating element.
Then, adopting BAs for audiophlie needs effectively created IEMs, as we now know them.
Adopted to IEM needs, BAs underwent all different transformations by ingenious people in the field to suit specific requirements including reproducing bass.

Here is an instructive general schematic of a BA:

Nothing in physics and engineering prevents increasing the size of the diaphragm and creating it more flexible, etc., to fully match (and/or exceed) DD air pushing.
Relevant related advances to mention are BAs firing from a side, semi-open BAs, etc.

Now, my limited bias is that DDs are like drums, and one can't play violin music (or reasonably imitate violins) using drums - more agile and responsive transducers are needed.

This is actually closer to reality.
Historically BA were used in World War II as headphones for Morse Code communications but yes, after that miniaturization started with hearing aid devices.
I also think that there are indeed limitations to what you can change to "fully match (and/or exceed) DD air pushing" otherwise it would have been done already especially the "exceed" part. The internal BA design would have to be radically different. If you take CI driver from Knowles it has diaphragm area equal to 9mm DD speaker, will it create the same bass feel? Nope. CI is also not a full range speaker while 9mm can easily handle full range response.

When you think of what’s happening on a physical level with a “tiny vibrating reed”

The reed vibrates the diaphragm though.