[Neruda]

it's nice that headwize lacked ads, but what we need to realize is that Headwize went down because of it. Headwize lacked the funding to support itself. The reality of the situation is that we don't have a choice of whether or not we have ads; we simply have to have them. Jude cannot be expected to pay for all this himself. No one else is willing to pay for it themselves, are they? If you are, please come forward. If not, accept the reality of the situation.

Ads are a must at this point; the best we can do is make them as nice as possible.

 

[mbriant]

quote:

"In a way mbriant was right to say earlier on that I should stay out of the communities discussions and let the community descide, because I am and will always be a head of a different corporate entity. But in the case at hand, I feel justified in that I am trying to help you gain true corporate identity."

Tyll: That wasn't me who said that.....but in principle, I agree with it.

Having said that, despite a little ribbing on my part, many of your suggestions are well thought out and do merit consideration. And despite you having a vested commercial interest in the survival of at least one quality headphone forum, at least you are up front and honest about it. One thing is obvious, you enjoy your work ( as much as a person can enjoy "work" ). I think it's every man's dream to be able to earn a living doing something they enjoy. Most of us don't enjoy that luxury. For that, I envy you.

I've always been a believer that 1,000 heads are better than one. Thanks to the interactive natures of both Chu and Jude, both forums enjoy this benefit.

ai0tron: Despite your somewhat overblown analogies, you've fearlessly vocalized thoughts and concerns that I'm sure many of us have. For that I commend you.

Mike Walker has mentioned it before, and he's right .... there's nothing wrong with constructive argument. In fact, as long as it's kept civil, it's the only way to improvement.

One of the great things about this community, is it's ability to openly discuss polarized differences of opinion, and yet not erupt into a complete childish flamewar like happens on so many other forums. I think this is primarily due to the high level of intelligence and maturity the majority of it's members possess. Most of us are opinionated, but at least most of us are open and receptive to other's opinions.

I don't need to go into detail about what these forums mean to me personally. I think most of here share a similar positive sense of community.

When I first discovered Headwize a few months ago, I had a difficult time accepting Chu at face value. I'm a skeptic by nature, and having spent many years earning a good living in the audio/video industry, couldn't accept the fact that Chu was doing all this for the shear love of it. I kept thinking to myself, "what's his angle?" He's got to be seeing dollar signs somewhere ahead....otherwise, why would he be spending his own money and huge amounts of his own skills and time to build and maintain such a quality site?

As they say, the proof's in the pudding, and he has proven himself to be exactly what he appears to be.....an intelligent, hard working, benevolent individual who's love of audio and particularly headphones is his driving force.

When Headwize went down, I was jonesin' just like everyone else, and relieved when I found out about Head-Fi. At the same time, my skeptical nature came out again and I wondered "what's Jude's angle?" My initial thought was that he's a business man, with the perfect business to turn Head-Fi into a business.

Again, after a month of observation, it seems my gut reactions were wrong. Jude, like Chu, simply loves audio, enjoys headphones, and really enjoys the comradery, discussion, information and friendships this site can provide.

Jude knows better than most, what exactly is involved in time and finances to start up and maintain a site like this. He's being practical and thinking ahead when he speaks of sponsorship. Wanting to cover costs, or if it were to ever happen, more than cover costs, is not something anyone should have to defend.

The bottom line is, and Jude knows this, that each of us is empowered with the ability to visit or not visit whichever site(s) we wish. He's well aware that if Head-Fi were to turn into a commercialized crap-fest, most of us would split.

So I think we should accept things as they are and attempt to contribute as many ideas and suggestions as we can to that end.

Chu wants to maintain HeadWize as a sponsor-free site, financed by himself and perhaps the selling of promotional items, while Jude's thoughts are to eventually ( Don't forget, it's coming out of his pocket at the moment) have Head-Fi's expenses covered by perhaps promotional items and some sort of non-intrusive, tastefull form of corporate sponsorship.

Each of us will be able to chose when and where we spend our own time.

I wish them both every success in the world.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

At the risk of being bloated with rhetoric, I embark, yet again, in quest of saying what's on my mind:

I tend to think that those against "commercialism" have a picture in their head that is truly ugly, and not at all what I'm thinking when I say commercial corporate participation.

I see my job as to serve this community as best I can. I beleive my sucess is directly tied to the success of this community, in so far as this communities idea of success is to, as MacDEF said, evangelize for headphone listening. If that is the purpose of this community, then I'm going to invest in it's success not because I will directly gain orders from members, but because I will gain naturally as a result of the increased interest of people at large desiring headphones more. As a result I am not primarily interested in having banner ads or any other such crass, crude traffic minipulating mechanism. Rather I feel doing things that are benefitial for the rest of the community in terms of the memberships ability to better access their headphone interests is where my greatest return lies.

I have thought a LOT about this, that's why I'm saying soooooo damn much on this thread: the Internet porvides a completely NEW way for commerce and community to interact, one where the money normaly spent on extremely expensive advertising can now go directly to people. If this community is viewed as the place where people will get their headphone buying advice, then it is this community ITSELF that commercial corporations must convince of the quality of thier products.

Headphones and headphone amps, are made by other commercial entities. This community, viewed from the perspective of headphone makers, is a vehicle for the communication of opinions about those products. People who wish objective opinions about products to buy, look here for information and advice. You guys now essentially take the place of an advertisment. Yes, it's much more than that, too. But, your service to people at large is that you can communicat what headphones are all about.

Like I said before I spend $3000/month in Stereophile. I currently value this place maybe half as much as I value Stereophile in terms of it's influence on purchasers of the products I sell. I expect that Head-Fi could be twice what Stereophile's worth to me in about one year IF it is able to communicate accurately the value of headphone products. Multiply it all our and you'd find that Head-Fi might be worth $250,000 in corporate promotional spending in the next year.

Now, it's not Jude, or Chu only that create that value, but the commiunity as a whole. It's likely (as indicative to me anyway) that that's why Jude picked the root URL for this place to end in .org. I think it should have it's own government, I think it should have it's own cost accounting, in fact I think it ought to be incorporated and run as a non-profit. Now, think about that for a second, some big company might come along and decide to get rid of a lot of old-headphone test equipment, and because Head-Fi.org has a member who is an official bench trester for headphones, that member might get donated a big wad of gear. Then the donating company can write off the equipment as going to a non-profit. Or, let's say there are folks here that have earned the privilege by vote of being official reviewer members. Companies like me will be jumping up and down to ship equipment to them for review, and they could buy the stuff at reviewer prices. Companies would do stuff like, donate prizes for contests, or write articles as content for Head-Fi.

Companies would also be requiring their marketing people to participate in discussions here to find out what people like and don't like. Engineers would be discussing new technologies being developed so that you all could talk intelegently about them when those products came out. Companies would recruit from among the young folks here. The Sennheiser Vice-Chairman I talked with the other day said it was difficult to find young engineers willing to work in headphones because there wasn't enough attraction when compared to some of the excitement going on in the computer world.

My point is that when I say "commercial paticipation" I see something that would be increadably strongly benefitial for the members here. Not just butt-ugly banners.

 

[dhwilkin]

Quote:

ai0tron said... dhwilkin... Obviously the anology is meant to elaborate on commercialism IN GENERAL rather than creating specific and rather arbitrary links between characters in the story and people here. I don't see this as an issue of pride, I see nothing wrong with offering aid. I offered to send Chu money like the many here did. However if Chu had accepted then possibly the question arises that Chu actually MADE money. Thats the question I have for Jude. How does he feel when he makes money... We are no longer just a forum of friends for him we are also a means of making a living... fine. But this changes Jude's view of us and it changes our view of Jude. I don't like the way I would personally view the forums if they were a money making machine.

OK ai0tron, now I see where you're coming from. My understanding of the situation is this:

jude already has a successful business career separate from Head-fi. He makes enough money from this business to fully support himself and all dependents. He is not making any money from Head-fi, nor is it considered a separate business. But since Head-fi is expensive to maintain, his business is not enough by itself to cover the costs. So to cover the difference, jude wants to have some sort of corporate involvement. I assume that all money received from corporate involvement will either be used to pay for operating expenses of this site, or be used as an investment into adding new features or whatever to this site... thus none of this corporate investment would go into jude's pocket. jude, please elaborate (if you can) on this subject, and correct me if I got anything wrong.

That's your primary concern, right? That jude will personally make money from this site, and thus view us as customers instead of friends? I honestly don't think something like that would happen. And if it did... well, maybe I'd go somewhere else. But I don't think I'll ever be faced w/ that choice.

Quote:

ai0tron said... MacDef... I don't think that's elitist I think it's the truth. Yes I like to help people who really want help. But even when I was first introduced to headwize I was a little but aberrant however I was quickly converted when I realized you guys were sincere in your love of this hobby. That sincerity is what convinced me to stay. I think that commercialization will allow this place to grow to the point where it essentially just that, a place for newbies to find out what to buy.

Now this concern I agree with. Not necessarily that commercialization would be the direct cause, but losing the personal feel of the community when it gets big is a danger. But here's the dilemna: Do you feel better about preventing newbies from ever benefitting from our knowledge, and maybe preventing them from developing a love of music, but keeping the sense of community to a select few? Or do you feel better about potentially helping a great number of people develop a new love for music and sticking it to the big corporations who make crappy products, but losing out on a sense of community?

That's a tough choice. Personally, I think a middle ground can be walked, but only w/ good moderators, who are willing to get rid of people that consistently try to devalue the community. A more active use of moderators may not sit well w/ everyone, but that's the only way I currently see of successfully navigating that middle ground. Not to mention, we already have one example of the community correcting itself in regards to one former member back on Headwize (and I think we all know who I'm talking about). Maybe I'm being too optimistic on this point... but I hope not.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

You will see that this community of friends will be soured by commercialization.

You're assuming two things:

1) That commercialization will bring in hordes of newbies who will overrun us

2) That commercialization will somehow make those of us here now act differently

I think the first is optimistic (I don't think commercialization itself will bring ANY new members -- people don't go to forums because the forums have ads; they go there because of the content, where they then see the ads).

I think the second isn't giving us members enough credit. I'm not going to start behaving differently if I see a banner here or there. I'd rather not see them, but as long as they don't pop-up and take over my screen (hint, hint, Jude

) I have no problem with them.

Neruda is absolutely correct: nothing is free. Eventually the upkeep and bandwidth of this forum is going to cost Jude more money than he can afford or is *willing* to give. Do we then close up shop and hope someone sets up another board somewhere? Do we all go to HeadWize and swamp Chu's bandwidth again? I, for one, don't want to deal with that kind of musical chair system of forums.

So the deal is this: the forums will need money. There are a number of possibilities for how to provide that capital: membership fees, advertising, sponsorship without ads, corporate memberships (Tyll, thanks for some really great suggestions). I think it's fair to say that if we want this niche community to grow and prosper, we can't charge people to come here. That leaves some kind of sponsorship or advertising.

There is nothing inherently wrong with advertisements or sponsorship in and of themselves. Problems can only arise in the *way* in which they are implemented. Rather than everyone making a big deal about the concept of advertisement or sponsorship -- they *will* happen someday, like it or not -- I think we should talk about how Jude/Chu/whoever can best implement them.

 

[Neruda]

Quote:

originally posted by ai0tron: We are no longer just a forum of friends for him we are also a means of making a living...

I said it once and I'll say it again, Jude is in no way using us to make money. Jeez, as if he could make a living selling us Head-fi T-shirts! All he wants to do is talk with his friends, and make it possible for us to talk to all our friends without having to worry about it getting taken away. Now he's getting attacked for it. We owe Jude a lot, and he does not deserved to be attacked in this fashion.

 

[Tides]

I wonder if we be having this discussion if we are on ezboard right now. (basically AD free with a very small fee )
I had it set up like a day or 2 before Jude's Head-fi opened up...
( I was planning to pay to keep it AD free as well)


some Food for thoughts

Tides

PS. I have since closed that board down. ( known as Hidewizer's Hideout) Neruda,Vertigo_1 and others have been there before we moved here

PS2. I Just got paid for being here! 2 shiny RCA caps!

PS3. SOme of you need to just relax a little, plug in the headphones, turn on the CDP and enjoy the music. Let the forums evolve as you listen along

 

[jude]

Regarding banners: Again, I'm not interested in pursuing banner ads as a form of support, as they're generally not effective. If we ever do do banners, the idea would be that they're industry-specific.

Regarding pop-ups: I hate pop-ups. We'll avoid those at just about any cost. Again, if you see pop-ups, expect an e-mail asking for contributions.

Regarding pocketing money: Here I am, hoping that we'll bring in enough to pay for server upgrades and bandwidth over the next year or two, yet some of you seem to know something I don't. Who among us here is involved in a website-centered business? If there is anyone here who either works for a website-centered business -- or owns one -- please describe the enormity of the task of making money with it. It is extremely difficult to even break even when commerce is the goal. A couple of you seem to think that the money will come pouring in in amounts far greater than the costs of the community. I want to scale sponsorships up as needed. We'll likely start with a few which should keep us happy and safe, but we'll eventually scale up, and then so will the number of sponsors.

The following was said a couple of posts ago: Quote:

But since Head-fi is expensive to maintain, his business is not enough by itself to cover the costs.

The revenue my companies bring in is independent of Head-Fi, and I can't use them to pay for Head-Fi (you try selling that to my business partners) -- I just wanted to clear that up.

So let me answer your question: Head-Fi will not be paying me. The intent of bringing in sponsor money is to pay for the site's current needs, and to invest in future needs.

Banners as big money-makers is a myth. Some have the impression that by pasting some up on the site, we'll get rich quick . You know those "hit the monkey" banners? How much money do you think the site would bring in if it impressed 1,000,000 impressions of one of those banners? Think about it. I'll put the answer at the end of this post.

In the near future, it is my intention to move Head-Fi to an independent server (it's currently residing on hardware concurrently dedicated to performing other tasks unrelated to Head-Fi). I imagine that a dedicated server will run around $2500 to $3000 each. I wouldn't be surprised if, like Audio Asylum, within a year or two, we're running at least a couple of servers, and that we may need to upgrade our storage capacity (storage, thankfully, will be one of the least expensive ongoing upgrade needs). And then there's bandwidth. To keep it running fast, it is my intention to give Head-Fi even more dedicated bandwidth than it has now (again, it is currently sharing bandwidth with other tasks). The bandwidth will likely be the most expensive ongoing expense. The servers will be the biggest pulse-type expenses. Remember, Head-Fi (even now) is not being run out of a house. Our servers are in datacenters, and so will the independent Head-Fi server(s). We won't have site performance worth a dime if we run it on DSL or cable modem. And going to the sort of ISP designed to handle personal web sites and small-to-medium sized sites also doesn't work. Why? Because we, as a community, generate a buttload of page impressions. You want to get some idea of the costs? Go to http://www.rackspace.com and start combing through as many of the available options there as possible. We won't be using that company, so our costs will be somewhat lower, but it'll still be expensive. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention rack rental costs. We'll get away with a part of a rack (we won't need a whole rack anytime soon), but that will probably run around $200/month in and of itself.

I never planned on pocketing money from Head-Fi. Truth be told, I'd be surprised if I still didn't have to subsidize it out of my own pocket from time to time, but I'm not going to pay for the whole thing. Again, having a site make money consistently is a very challenging -- a very challenging -- thing to do. Again, to those of you who work for (and/or own) web-based businesses, please speak up. If any of you have ever been laid off by a web-based business, please also speak up. I sort of understand the myth of the website as big money maker, but anyone who lives in it will tell you how it really is. And I think they'll tell you that they wouldn't be surprised if (A) I'll still be putting in some of my own money and/or (B) appealing to you members to help out a little periodically (though I'm trying to avoid that).

The answer to the "monkey banner" question is around $1000 for one million impressions. You'll see no such banners here.

 

[Duncan]

I'm going to look at this from the opposite angle now...

Who would REALLY care if there were adverts promoting the items we want? I mean... pick up a hi-fi mag... theres plenty of adverts in there, isn't there... and think... without those adverts, would those magazines REALLY be able to pay for themselves? I think not...

That is in the case of a profit MAKING organisation... but, in terms of this site... if the intents are NON profit making... then... is that really such a cost to us? we still pay nothing, but we gain the longevity of the site... Wahoo, I think we've backed a winner!!

At the end of the day, I think everyone is sweating too much about something that is bound to happen... prime example... the millenium bug... everyone was crapping there load, that missles would go off automatically, bank accounts would vanish, electricity would be cut off, etc etc... and... what happened? Nothing... Life carried on as normal

People are too afraid to break from the norm... but, if the norm is flawed, what then? I don't see people with bad teeth not going to the dentist, just because there is a poster for arm and hammer toothpaste on the wall... do you? I don't see people not going to supermarkets, because there is a coca cola promotion... do you?

If you can face reality now, it'll make it so much easier to adapt (not that ultimately there is anything to adapt to?!?)

One Question... Do you REALLY think that Jude, Chu Moy, or anyone else who does this kind of thing would want to jeopardise there "baby" by using BAD promotional material? C'mon!! Whatever happens, it will be for the best, and NOT the worst!!

 

[mbriant]

quote:

"without those adverts, would those magazines REALLY be able to pay for themselves? I think not..."

The fact is, subscription and newsstand revenues for the majority of magazines, barely covers the cost of fulfillment. Advertising revenue is what really pays the bills.

Speaking for myself, before the internet became a reality, I often purchased magazines to specifically look at the ads....either for pre-purchase information or for post-purchase confirmation that I'd bought the right thing.

Nowdays, finding a company's website and the product info/photos it provides, is a cheaper and more effective way of accomplishing the same thing.

If Chu and/or Jude are able to provide instant links to the various manufacturer/retailer sites appropriate to the headphone hobby.....and have these companies pay for this privilage/benefit .... two birds are being killed with one stone.

 

[mcbiff]

I would just like to say that if it hadn't been for this thread being started I would never even have given thought to this whole situation. One day I would be browsing the site and there would be some sort of advertising or sponsorship or whatever, I'd just say "ok" and keep browsing. If the quality of the site would somehow deteriorate from this advertising/sponsorship I would probably stop coming here. I'm pretty sure that's how everyone would react too, and I'm also pretty damn sure that that is *not* what jude and/or Chu Moy want. Therefore they will be very careful when considering these options.

Bottom line: This is inevitable (the sponsorship thing), and we can't say what will happen until it has happened. So just let it happen. I'm going to bed now.

 

[markl]

Again, Duncan has it exactly right.

If I were a newbie and had been directed to purchase certain obscure phones by a manufacturer I've never heard of from some people on some board somewhere that I just met, I would need a trusted place to go to make my purchase. If the Headroom banner was on the board, and I clicked on it, I'd be pretty stoked and not pissed off at the "commercialization" of the board.

Why wouldn't we welcome corporate involvement in our board? We want them paying attention to us and doing what we want. We can only benefit from this in my opinion.

Wouldn't it be COOL if Sennheiser, Beyer, and Grado had there own sections of the boards here to answer questions? They could have their own "headphone help desks". If they have to be here to monitor their boards, they will have to have a resource who spends time reading the boards. They can pay Jude a monthly fee to live on the board, they are relegated to their own sections, and we get to keep the board free to all. Just another idea...

We've got to kill this talk of paying to visit/post on this site. That is a dead end.

markl

 

[Sirwar]

Less complimentary ramblings, and more interesting thoughts; I actually enjoyed reading this one

 

[ai0tron]

Help desks would be cool...

I generally hope that there is a proliferation of hardcore honesty concerning the forums. I thank Jude for being patient and not banning me outright because I believe he was genuinely insulted by some of the things I said. This reaction can be interpreted in a number of ways but in Judes case I am of the mind that he was simply shocked that anyone would suspect anything but absolute graciousness from him.

However, Tyll you still scare me because I have this image of you staring vacantly wide eyed off into space with dollar signs swirling around your noggin as if you just got slapped over the head with the best thing to happen to headphone sales since headphones...

Still this place is the best forum on the internet I have ever experienced bar-none. And in the long run I prefer to buy from Headroom rather than best buy or Sony even if Tyll is dizzy from watching the cash roll in. I just hope that Tyll and Jude have the proper perspective regarding the members if the place gets big. An example of this would be Jan, who I feel took advantage of headwize a tad to freely... Even though he offered EXCELLENT deals to everyone which were literally unbeatable. That is one of Tyll and Jude's motives in going commercial I suppose. Still, you would have to wonder if Jan being the small time "partner" that he would no doubt be, could even afford to pay commercial membership fee's. For me I see a lot of room for struggle when head-fi goes commercial. Jan, Tyll, Jude, Cmoy they are all leaders of a sort. When they fight I kinda feel bad and my desire to participate in the goings on of the site wanes slightly. If I were to take sides with whomever I agree with I then might fight with someone who is on someone else's side... Mine and everyone elses experience would be generally degraded over time.

And hey, I can't help it if some of my analogies are over the top... I listen to too much Chopin not to have a need for drama.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Sirwar >>> This one was better, Tyll

Thanks, I tried.

markl >>> Wouldn't it be COOL if Sennheiser, Beyer, and Grado had there own sections of the boards here to answer questions? They could have their own "headphone help desks".

Sheesh, I think that one may be the best idea I've heard yet! I'd gladly anti-up for that one. I'll also be happy to go out and pitch the idea of participating to all the headphone makers. I'm going to visit the factories in late AUgust/early September. I'll be talking to you, Jude.

See, you can can run this place no sweat. Just figure out what it should look like and make your demands known to the companies. But, you've got to have the traffic, and you can't let the headphone expertise get diluted over more than one board.

I think it would eb funny as hell to put up a support area and put all the headphone makers threads in there and the have a moderator that answers all the questions in the unpaidfor areas by saying that the company doesn't care enough about the headphone community to opt in. Mua ha ha ha! But, I may sometimes be a bit too aggressive.