[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by ai0tron Also, Jude told me in private, and I dont think he will mind my saying it, that Chu was interested in having headwize replace head-fi on judes servers. A tough thing to do on Judes part and I do not fault him AT ALL for his response which was that he would have to get corporate sponsorship or fees of some sort to pay for it. Chu the stoic creature of light that he is declined. Whatever his reasons, I will just assume that Chu is trully a man of unwavering principal. Chu I do not know why you declined but it amazes me. People like you give me hope!!

I don't mind you saying it at all. That is correct: Chu did suggest that as a possibility. And I told him I'd be cool with it as long as I could do what I'm doing here, which is to make sure that the costs that would be incurred could be paid for, or at least largely offset. Nevertheless, he kindly declined, which, again, I understand and respect.

ai0tron, is it really your opinion that the community should only continue so long as one man is willing to cover the costs? That that is the only option? I disagree with you big-time. This community is important to a lot of us, man, not just you. And I think I speak for many when I say that we want a home, that's all.

I'm not of the opinion that sponsors automatically mean a forum goes to crap. Or that size means a forum goes to crap. I just noticed mcbiff mentioned Anandtech. And closer to home, what about Audio Asylum (which I know I keep mentioning repeatedly because they're an excellent sponsor-supported forum)? It can be done.

 

[Tides]

Quote:

Originally posted by jude ..... Again, it would be foolish of me to think that everyone's going to be okay with everything.....

I am fine with everything here hehe, and I am sure I am not the onlyone

Now if we can take * The battle* from Gladiator soundtrack and convert it to MIDI them embed it within this thread and the other thread about Headwize reopening ....

I say just let things evolve and see from there. It is not like Headwize is up right now

Tides

 

[ai0tron]

Yeah excuse im a dumb ass. Everything I said is wrong. I always forget about the COLD EQUATIONS. Anyone read that story?? Its pretty good let me explain it to you. See in the future profits are so thin that spaceships going to planets and back are given PRECISELY the amount of fuel needed to get them there this is calculated so that they will run out of fuel at the EXACT moment necessary to drop through the atmosphere and land safely. Too much fuel and you skip through the atmosphere, to little and you burn up coming straight down into it.

So there is this ship going to a planet. Not making any deliveries, just taking some people to a planet for some BUSINESS. So the ship launches and off they go. Along the way the pilot does some CALCULATIONS. He realizes that they are SLIGHTLY off there planned trajectory. He does a scan of the ship and notices an anomoly in the aft cargo hold. He goes back there and low and behold its a little girl. So they are slightly off trajectory because her mass is changing the acceleration characteristics of their space ship. THEY ARE GOING TO RUN OUT FUEL BECAUSE OF HER. So they fly along slowly getting more and more off of the necessary trajectory. Soon they realize they MUST lose the cargo. AKA the little girl. So they get all emotional but try not to let the girl know. The guy would rather jetison himself then jetison this little 12 year old girl into space. But he cant because if he does the ship will be too light and will overshoot their destination. So they decide to jetison her rather than die together. So they tell her to go into the hold and they jetison her into space. when they open the doors its just her shoe thats there. The guy picks it up and has an emotional moment. Ahhh, the power of the cold equations.

 

[rohorn]

Ah, the power of the paranoid idiot who confuses his vivid grasp of his imagination with his poor grasp of reality.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Money is simply one method for storing the gain that occurs when a persons creativity is is utilized for the benefit of another. Chus creative output went to benefit others, but he refused when people offered their appreciation for the reciept of that value. So all the value of what Chu did went into the community. Thanks, Chu!

But I feel bad. I got something for nothing. Sheesh! I gained not only personally but professionally. It pisses me off just thinking about it. I made some decent bucks at HeadWize, and I wanted to spend money at HeadWize, I was the one that offered to give him gear to give away at contests, but he never got around to doing it.

I tell you something, aiOtron, HeadWize was the worst kind of commercial, it was an opportunistic free for all. I would much rather be in an environment where commercial participation had it's place. And I would much rather be in a situation where Chu was putting some money in his pocket, because he was valuable.

In talking to Chu, one time some time ago I realized he had very little headphone equipment. My guess is it's because he was spending all his money ON US! I think his work on HeadWize should have helped him engage in headphones not kept him away from it.

And how can you complain about the "smell" of money when the headphones on your head are the result of people engaging in commerce. There is nothing wrong with commercial activity when right motivated, in fact it is one of the most beautiful opportunities to interact with others that exists to my mind. I sell you someting you value more than the money it takes to buy it, you give me the money I value more than the equipment I make so I can grow and pay enployees. My employees work because the money they make is worth makes the free time they have awayfrom here more valuable. It's a good thing. Don't be a hypocrit either throw away all your stuff and live in the mountains, or admit that commerse has a vital and good purpose.

 

[dhwilkin]

Let me get this straight: ai0tron, you are trying to draw an analogy between a little girl's death and accepting money to continue a worthwhile cause? Bad attempt, try again. And that's not the only way to apply that book's ending.

I see you as the ship's captain, telling the little girl (jude) that no deviation from the oh-so-noble goal of never accepting money, for any reason, will be permitted. All the girl needs is a little help (a bit of space on the ship / donations) and goodwill to stay alive. But instead, ideological ethics overrule moral ethics, and the girl is left to survive on her own. Which, of course, she doesn't.

Don't be so proud... surviving on your own is a noble (and preferable) goal, but there is nothing wrong w/ humbly accepting aid from others.

Quote:

Tyll said... Don't be a hypocrit either throw away all your stuff and live in the mountains, or admit that commerse has a vital and good purpose.

Agreed.

P.S. Sorry about having you be the little girl, jude.

 

[KR...]

ai0tron,

You are truly the undisputed grand master of overreacting.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

As I view the last few posts I begin to get upset. It is said that the three steps to maturity are dependance, independance, and interdependance. Itt's this last bit that we're stuck on I believe.

I have to say that comments like:

aiOtron >>> Rather it has the smell of a business.

rohorn >>> Ah, the power of the paranoid idiot who confuses his vivid grasp of his imagination with his poor grasp of reality.

Are indicators of the fact that it is difficult to accept the differences in others. But let me encourage you. Allong with the "stink" of people who are "other" to you, comes their strengths. It apears to me we gain from aiOtrons romantisism because it lets people a little more stuufy let their hair down a little. But we gain from people like me who see Head-Fi as a venue for larger corporate interaction. Sure we have to suffer my stink of wanting attention a little bit, but we gain because HeadRoom is willing to give away stuff, and make headphone measurement data available as a aid to discussion.

aiOtron >>> I didn't mean to insult you Jude I want to make sure that just in case the thought ever crossed your mind to turn this place into a corporate machine...

I want to point out that the word corporate is actually just as well applied to HeadWizeFi as it is to HeadRooom. Corporate means:

1 a : formed into an association and endowed by law with the rights and liabilities of an individual : INCORPORATED b : of or relating to a corporation <a plan to reorganize the corporate structure>
2 : of, relating to, or formed into a unified body of individuals <human law arises by the corporate action of a people -- G. H. Sabine>

A: is the common legal definition that applies to HeadRoom, but B: is from whence the meaning of the word comes: a unified body of individuals. When we add A: as the outplayed-in-Mans-actions result of the meaning in B:, we find that a unified body of individuals can act corporately as an individual. It is this new entity you can corporately become that has a new type of voice in the world. And it is this voice that will be listened to by the other corporate entities.

In a way mbriant was right to say earlier on that I should stay out of the communities discussions and let the community descide, because I am and will always be a head of a different corporate entity. But in the case at hand, I feel justified in that I am trying to help you gain true corporate identity.

aiOtron >>> One has formality of an organization, and someone is making money (be it the advertiser, sponsor or whatever of the free monthly newsletter), the other doesn't.

The informality the aiOtron talks about is fine, and if you guys want it, fine. But I would be saddened by the loss of what you all have to offer the world. Because in your informality, many good people looking for headphones would end up with crap cans. Your lack of will to be great would allow others to suffer.

 

[markl]

As a teacher of mine always used to try to drill into our heads: "ain't no such thing as a free lunch".

Without the banners, no site. Big deal. I think we can handle a couple ads if that is the reality.

If you avoided all sites that were "tainted" by ads, you'd have nowhere to go on the web.

When I was young and inexperienced, I also used to be suspicious and scared of business and money. Like many of my peers, I was all hung up on keeping things "pure" and "untainted" by material concerns. I only followed bands that adhered to a certain self-defeating creed. None of those bands whose music I loved back then are still around today. They simply couldn't figure out how to keep doing their thing within the actual world that exists out there. Now they are gone and no one will remember them.

We have a lot of college age folks (and younger) on the forum who have yet to make their way in the big bad world out there, and don't yet have a real grasp of how things work. It's really not as horrible and corrupt and evil as you imagine. It's just that there are certain realities you will grow to accept or you will end up bitter and sad and defeated.

As a young (vaguely left-wing) indie-rock dude, crossing over to the "dark side" (adulthood, job, responsibility) and really growing up was a particularly difficult and treacherous transition. In the end, I wished I hadn't been so idealistic. I voluntarily pulled the wool over my own eyes. It did nothing to help prepare me for the world I would have to live in. Nevertheless, I found ways to maintain my personal integrity while operating in the world I actually found.

That said, I am always amazed by the quality of the thoughts expressed by the younger members on the board, including ai0tron. Sometimes I relate to where they are coming from because I used to be there, too.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone, just trying to keep us grounded here.

markl

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

I think those of us who really care about the COMMUNITY will leave when the place gets so BIG that it is primarily dominated by newbies.

I think that's a bit elitest. Maybe some people see this community only as a place where the knowledgeable can get together and "talk shop." I don't. I think that is only *one* component of this community's real purpose: a place where high-quality headphones and related equipment are evangelized. That happens in two ways:

1) Knowledgeable people share their knowledge and ignorant people(I mean that in the dictionary definition of the word: lacking in knowledge) become knowledgeable.

2) Knowledgeable people press for better quality products.

The combination of those two phenomena is our *best* chance to improve the quality of headphone and headphone-related products. The more people that understand and appreciate high-quality sound, the more pressure on companies to produce high-quality products.

"Newbies" are a key component of the equation here... with every "newbie" who becomes a true headphone geek, our voice is stronger. Without "newbies," we're just the same small group of people who will never be big enough to influence products. How many of us started out as ignorant newbies?

 

[Sirwar]

I haven't real all 3 pages, so someone may have already mentioned this...

I love a good essay as much as the next geek, but honestly, Tyll's 'essay' was bloated with rhetoric and only seemed to really make one point: Keep the headphone community going, and keep it commercially unbiased.

Its nothing personal, I love HeadRoom, but I had trouble focusing on the text the same way I get when I fall asleep reading those monthly technology magazines.

 

[acidtripwow]

Quote:

So they decide to jetison her rather than die together. So they tell her to go into the hold and they jetison her into space. when they open the doors its just her shoe thats there. The guy picks it up and has an emotional moment.

Ai0Tron, that's just ****ing great! I loved it!

Acid

 

[dhwilkin]

Acid, ever see Pitch Black? Similar moment in that movie, but it's at the beginning. Cool movie, BTW.

 

[ai0tron]

Rohorn... You present no argument, no justification for what you have said. Simply a slandering remark with no REALITY behind it. You should revise your statement.

KR...... I do not feel I overreact. I chose to take this stance. It is done because charging headlong into a new world can be dangerous. I see little evidence of people who consider the far reaching aspects of commercialization outside of the immediate need for survival which I feel is purely an extension of fear. Some of you may be perfectly happy with commercialization. Fine, but the benefits are it's downfall... You will see that this community of friends will be soured by commercialization. That I feel is a fact that will become more evident with time. I am starting not to understand why I care anymore because I have much better things to do, like write a long paper and get to learning some new 3d software for class. But still I sit here and type. I don't know why but I really, really CARE about this place and what happens to it. If it exists as a cheap facimile of it's former self that would be WORSE than it simply going by the wayside.

MacDef... I don't think that's elitist I think it's the truth. Yes I like to help people who really want help. But even when I was first introduced to headwize I was a little but aberrant however I was quickly converted when I realized you guys were sincere in your love of this hobby. That sincerity is what convinced me to stay. I think that commercialization will allow this place to grow to the point where it essentially just that, a place for newbies to find out what to buy.

Tyll... While my statements border on hypocrisy when approached from the wrong angle you must REMEMBER that this conversation is about the state of the forums... Not about my own personal wealth and headphones... although I must admit that moving to Tibet has crossed my mind many times in the course of my life... I have purchased from headroom before you know. That does NOT bother me one bit. What bothers me is when vendors start scrambling for a bigger piece of the pie.

dhwilkin... Obviously the anology is meant to elaborate on commercialism IN GENERAL rather than creating specific and rather arbitrary links between characters in the story and people here. I don't see this as an issue of pride, I see nothing wrong with offering aid. I offered to send Chu money like the many here did. However if Chu had accepted then possibly the question arises that Chu actually MADE money. Thats the question I have for Jude. How does he feel when he makes money... We are no longer just a forum of friends for him we are also a means of making a living... fine. But this changes Jude's view of us and it changes our view of Jude. I don't like the way I would personally view the forums if they were a money making machine.

Markl... Maybe you are right. It's not that I avoid sites tainted with ads. It's that I found Headwize unique in it's lack of them. I see your point Markl, I will probably not take this to the invariable end which is bitterness and failure. But if I could do it, I might change some people's ideas along the way. My flaming wreckage of an opinion might fall in some one's back yard and give them an idea about how things could be different. Maybe.

 

[ai0tron]

acid,

I am glad you found that part funny because I meant it to be. Although the overall message is meant to be serious I like to spice it up with a well placed laugh or two.