[purrin]

  Just to be clear guys. Evaluating dacs comes more easily after you get used to a few nice quality dacs. Once you know what to look for and where it really doesn't take that long to hear a difference. Like 10 seconds of a passage of song that is super complex with lots of things happening will literally reveal almost everything about that dac. A lesser dac will smear the details and the attacks will sound blunted and messy at the end or the tonality will be off, bloated or recessed somewhere. There is also resolution, the ability to extract micro-details. etc. I mean seriously once you hear the difference it's startling and hard to go back to $100 dacs. The reason it takes so long to figure out the difference initally is just a lack of experience. Once you have the experience the differences are very in your face hard to miss even after just a few second of listening. It doesn't take weeks or months everytime you get a new dac. I'm just saying your very first one might take that long.
 
And no need to jump into $10k territory. Just try the $600 Concero, or if you can swing a get a X-Sabre, DA8, Anedio D2. Or buy any of these used if you want them cheaper. They're all near $1000 or under. You can probably resell them at the exact price you bought them for. People spend $1000 on headphones all the time, LCD-2/T1/HD800, hell even the HD700 went for a $1000. Try a dac in that range if you already have a phone of this caliber and get ready to smile big and eat crow.

 
+1
 
Ahhh, that felt good.

 

[tdockweiler]

Well, I hope a lot more people get the Vali in on Monday and can post impressions. This way I can be sure i'm not hearing things.
I swear that i'm sitting here and the Vali is not really there. Sounds crazy, but yeah I can't complain about this.
I haven't used my Modi with it since day 1 but I guess I'll try that again now.
 
Normal people on a budget should still consider the Modi to pair up with it. Nothing wrong with it or an ODAC.
I don't consider a $400 DAC a budget item!
 
I think for the Q701 a Vali + Modi/ODAC would be perfect.
 
Modded Q701 on the Vali has gotten the most use so far.
Now to figure out why my DJ100 sounds a bit weird on it..

 

[purrin]

 
For those with tube experience, how would you rate the "Tube-iness" of the Vali? Does it add a lot of that tube sound, or a little bit of "tube flavor" to the signal?

 
Let me photoshop an illustration for you with other amps for reference. Give me a about 30 minutes. I'm trying to make the most of double XP weekend in SWTOR right now by killing some Imperial scum.

 

[jbarrentine]

   and they have to convince themselves expensive dacs don't makea difference. Their ears are open to any and all arguments that dacs are unimportant.
 

 
On the flip side of this are the people on headfi who swear that unless you're spending hundreds of dollars on a cable you just aren't getting the right experience. There's truth in there somewhere between the two extremes, but many of us are trying to sort through the crap to make intelligent decisions that don't break the bank uselessly. 

 

[Currawong]

A fact is only true in the context which it is presented. 

 

[NinjaHamster]

 
I agree 100%.
 
I bought my main speakers (Bowers & Wilkins 684) based on inexperience and cost. After living with them for several years now, I lament the fact I made such a hasty decision. Replacing speakers isn't cheap to do (IMO). After owning them for a while, I find the aluminum tweeters to be extremely sibilant and fatiguing at high volumes for long listening sessions. 
 
To the uninitiated/inexperienced listener (me, when I bought them) they sounded good at low  to medium volume levels. They sound "impressive" to the new audiophile (having never really heard hi-fi speakers before) as they sounded "full and engaging" with good bass and decent detail in the top end. I now feel that their "detailed top end" is nothing more than exaggerated highs. I think they are fine for movies, no complaints there. However, for 2 channel critical music listening, I crave something more.
 
If I were to buy new speakers today, I would (most likely) get something that sounds considerably different than what I currently own. Definitely something that leans toward a "darker" sound, and no more metal tweeters (I am thinking ribbon, or silk dome tweeters may fit the bill).
 
 
All of this is IMO, and I mean no offense to owners of B&W speakers (heck, I own them myself). If you love yours, that is great, I just wish I loved mine. Then again, I do have their lowest cost towers. LOL!
 
But I am way off topic now...
 
On Topic: I understand that some tube lovers are generally attracted to tubes because of the color the tubes add to the signal. This is sometimes described as "Tube-iness" (that's the technical term

). Some people like a lot of this "tube sound" while others seem to like just enough for a little smoothing of the highs and a bit of mid-range thickening.
 
For those with tube experience, how would you rate the "Tube-iness" of the Vali? Does it add a lot of that tube sound, or a little bit of "tube flavor" to the signal?

Your tale of woe is not uncommon - It is a "rite of passage".  We learn to trust our ears too late it would seem - at least in most cases - amongst the various reviews and ("they must know better than me") opinions ... ultimately only we know what we want, and we all all different ... Purrin might love the Vali and I might go "why"? (this was not a real example - I haven't heard it).  Ultimately, the people who make the most progress are those who consider other opinions but also know themselves and their own preferences ... this is hard in a lot of cases (how do you try a lot of gear to DETERMINE your own preferences in the first place?).  In the USA, this might be easy, otherwise you have to spend a lot of money and "thinking time" to work out who you are and what you believe.  Once you do, WOW.  You can often ignore the high prices, and go with something cheap, but which "does it" for you with a little research.  It really is a tale of growing up and becoming independent, but we each have to do it for ourselves - I can't tell you what you might like and visa versa.  The main ingredients are inclination and  time - unfortunate as we have so little time ... but still, I choose to view this as a message of hope rather than doom (but ask me tomorrow, it might be different) ... 

 

[M-13]

   
On the flip side of this are the people on headfi who swear that unless you're spending hundreds of dollars on a cable you just aren't getting the right experience. There's truth in there somewhere between the two extremes, but many of us are trying to sort through the crap to make intelligent decisions that don't break the bank uselessly. 

We all are man. Nobody likes wasting money. There are lots of smart people on here. It takes brains and an education to make money to spend on audio gear. You don't make money by making bad deicsions and being dumb. I think it's important to not dismiss the experience of others unless you've given them a fair evaluation. And yeah cables can make a difference, a small or big difference depending on how you view it.
 
These days with so many places offering no hassle returns and trial periods for dacs, it's very easy to go hear for youself without taking a hit to the wallet. Or like I mentioned going used is also great because you can sell it back to the community for almost no loss or no loss at all in most cases.
 
Snake oil is everywhere, not just in audio. But you have to understand most people on this forum don't have any secret agendas or motivations. We're all here to enjoy music and share our experiences. Yeah there are some bad eggs, but they kind of reveal themselves in an obvious manner in due time.

 

[sfwalcer]

   
On the flip side of this are the people on headfi who swear that unless you're spending hundreds of dollars on a cable you just aren't getting the right experience. There's truth in there somewhere between the two extremes, but many of us are trying to sort through the crap to make intelligent decisions that don't break the bank uselessly. 

+1

 

  A fact is only true in the context which it is presented. 

^
a talkin' birdie.......

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

 

[JeremyR]

  Just an observation from spending some time on Head-Fi...
 
It seems like this "dacs don't make much of a difference" theme always repeats itself in threads that are budget item oriented.
 
For example, this line of argument flies well in the HE-400 thread and is generally well received by many there; but try saying the same thing in the HE-6 or HD800 thread and people will smack you around and call you a fool. I think the difference is that people on these budget threads don't have a lot of money and spend a majority of their money on cans and perhaps even a semi-decent amp like the O2 or Asgard/Magni. This leaves them with just a soundcard or a budget dac and they have to convince themselves expensive dacs don't makea difference. Their ears are open to any and all arguments that dacs are unimportant.
 
I've never seen a post where some guy says, "Hey guys so I've been living with this $1000 dac for a few weeks now and I hear no difference from my ODAC, so I'm gong to send it back. Looks like you guys were wrong so F U."
 
It's always more like: "I tried some $10,000,000 dac briefly at a audio shop or a meet and I heard no difference." or "Science tells me there is no difference humans can hear."
 
This pattern seems to rehash itself on a lot of threads on Head-Fi. LOL.
 
When you guys on college budgets start splashing around with more expensive dacs you will all come to the darkside...

 
I am going to start this with I know nothing, so forgive me. I am new to the high end audio game.
 
Is there any equipment that can measure the analog signal coming out of a DAC, so it can be objectively compared? I would think the delta in DAC's could be easily quantified if such a tool existed.

 

[M-13]

   
I am going to start this with I know nothing, so forgive me. I sam new to the high end audio game.
 
Is there any equipment that can measure the analog signal coming out of a DAC, so it can be objectively compared? I would think the delta in DAC's could be easily quantified if such a tool existed.

Honestly I wish some genius would come up with an objective way to quantify headphones, amps, and dacs, so that we can stop arguing. I can just say, hey look the ODAC achieved a 87 out a 100 and the Perfect Wave Dac II achieved 91, so it's objectively 4 points better.
 
I somehow doubt this is going to happen though... and thus the human race continues to argue and rage about nothing. Even if we had measurements people who disagree about the methology used and thus we have scientists and petty squabling in peer-reviewed journals. LOL.

 

[waynes world]

  Just an observation from spending some time on Head-Fi...
 
It seems like this "dacs don't make much of a difference" theme always repeats itself in threads that are budget item oriented.
 
For example, this line of argument flies well in the HE-400 thread and is generally well received by many there; but try saying the same thing in the HE-6 or HD800 thread and people will smack you around and call you a fool. I think the difference is that people on these budget threads don't have a lot of money and spend a majority of their money on cans and perhaps even a semi-decent amp like the O2 or Asgard/Magni. This leaves them with just a soundcard or a budget dac and they have to convince themselves expensive dacs don't makea difference. Their ears are open to any and all arguments that dacs are unimportant.
 
I've never seen a post where some guy says, "Hey guys so I've been living with this $1000 dac for a few weeks now and I hear no difference from my ODAC, so I'm gong to send it back. Looks like you guys were wrong so F U."
 
It's always more like: "I tried some $10,000,000 dac briefly at a audio shop or a meet and I heard no difference." or "Science tells me there is no difference humans can hear."
 
This pattern seems to rehash itself on a lot of threads on Head-Fi. LOL.
 
When you guys on college budgets start splashing around with more expensive dacs you will all come to the darkside...

 
Are you trying to tell me that my $50 HifimeDIY Sabre dac is NOT the BEST dac ever???

 

 

[Deni5]

   
I am going to start this with I know nothing, so forgive me. I am new to the high end audio game.
 
Is there any equipment that can measure the analog signal coming out of a DAC, so it can be objectively compared? I would think the delta in DAC's could be easily quantified if such a tool existed.

 
'Preference' always plays a role as well so even if it would be measurable it wouldn't say that much. Finding a like-minded would give some clues though.

 

[tdockweiler]

   
Sorry got confused between O2 and ODAC.
 
 
That's awesome. I don't doubt what you hear. I'm sorry that you wasted your money on the Vali since it doesn't do anything more for you. If you ever want to return your Vali, I will pay your 15% restocking fee on the account of my bad recommendation.
 
 
Q701 and HD650 are perfectly fine. I use other mid-fi headphones like the HE-500 and Paradox myself and enjoy them immensely from the Vali. One doesn't need an HD800 or Abyss to appreciate the Vali.

 
Nope, i'm really loving the Vali. When I bought it my returns were all used up with Schiit (1 per year) so I would keep it or sell it. Definitely a keeper. I actually bought it as a bedroom amp for my CD player and Xbox 360. It's actually close enough to my favorite sound in an amp and that's why I like it.
 
So far I'd say the Vali is tied with the O2 as the 2nd best amp i've heard. In total i've only heard less than 10 desktop amps though. O2 isn't perfect, but I loved it when I had it.
 
Right now i'm testing the Modi with the Vali and HD-650. It seems like it sounds a bit more blurry/muffled than it normally does. Like almost a slightly double whammy in warmth, but why?! I don't even find the Modi warm. Confusing. Still not too bad.
 
The Modi ALWAYS sounds crystal clear with the Micro and O2 with the HD-650 so this is a bit weird.
 
Vali + HD-650 sounds amazing with the Micro DAC which has the CS4398 chipset. Same with the modded Q701.
 
Maybe next year i'll try the Bifrost but it's a bit out of my price range though.

 

[NinjaHamster]

   
'Preference' always plays a role as well so even if it would be measurable it wouldn't say that much. Finding a like-minded would give some clues though.

Yep ... like most of the female porn stars ... they like men, and I like the porn stars, and I'm a man ... almost  ... that gave me a clue that I should be dating a porn star ... It hasn't worked very well so far, but I'm still hoping ...

 

[Anavel0]

Maybe Tyll Hertsens can come up with something like his headphone measurements but for DACs.