[AnyDave]

Etydave has gone silent

haha perhaps he could tell us pecisely what frequency thagh high peak is that has the variance?

 
I haven't gone silent, I just ran myself into the ground a bit this week and slept for a LOOOOOOONNNNGGGG time last night.  Plus, we had the fun of a power outage earlier today.  I guess we shouldn't have turned all our air conditioners on at the same time. 

 
Based on the graph, It looks to be in the 15-16k range where the earphones differ.  I'd be amazed if you could notice the difference.
 
For fun, you could try a quick test.  Without looking at which channel is which, close your eyes and listen.  Then swap the channels and see if you can tell tell the difference.  It's very important not to know which side you start with.  I would recommend doing multiple tests with different music and write down the results before looking to see which channel it is.  Better yet, have a friend hand you the earphones in random orientations and write down the results. 

 

[AnyDave]

I know what you mean. But just remember that small deviations between pairs are going to be practically inaudible... I don't think most people would hear a 1db difference in channels. Just my opinion, but most etys are well within the tolerance of being sonically identical relatively speaking.

 
1dB is below the threshold that most listeners can detect.  While there may be others, I don't know of any other earphones on the market that promise that.  We do it because it shows an attention to detail that I think folks appreciate.

 

[AnyDave]

Yeah, honestly I'm surprised that the bass boost isn't greater. Which in my opinion is a good thing. I really would have preferred a boost only below 100hz at the most, as the xr doesn't really add much in terms of bass accuracy or even tightness or impact. It more just warms up the er4sr a touch and gives it a bit more total whoomp in the low end. But i'd call it more subtle than i expected.

I would have definitely noticed the difference if you hadn't told me it was a different model, but it's not drastic. Certain songs so far sound a bit more mid bass masked, meaning the treble details aren't as vibrant and transparent. They don't jump out as much as the er4sr and they sound softer due to the shift in bass. However, surprisingly, most songs, if there isn't much low bass booming, don't seem too much affected in the overall sound.. Acoustic guitars for example sound great and while slightly warmer, don't really sacrifice much at all elsewhere.

But then some songs it seems a bit more like the bass is having a small effect. Always, the effect is not that great though. You could switch to any other earphone and the bass would be noticeably more apparent... But i'll give them much more listening time before a detailed comparison.

At this point I love them both. I don't think i could give up the reference model for these. But these might rock in enviroments where there is more noise causing masking. Like a more out and about pair...

 
Yep.  The point of the XR was not to make a massive thumper.  It was to add a bit more low end impact.  Some recordings really don't have a lot of low bass and the difference between the SR and XR can be subtle at times.  With other recordings, it's more obvious.
 
The goal was to have a (reasonable) bass boost that doesn't muck up the midrange.  It's tough to do it in a way that has zero compromise to the level of detail, but hopefully people think we walked the line reasonably well; time will tell.

 

[luisdent]

Absolutely, it is a great bass adjustment that will please many users i'm sure.

And I agree about the 1db differences. And I figured the peak was around 15-16khz, and despite popular audiophile belief, 16khz-18khz is pretty much getting into the zone of deafness for most people. Not everyone. But even though I can personally hear beyond that, the slope of loudness goes down fast. In other words, 16khz to 18khz is a huge drop in volume of the sounds i hear. And it goes fast. Most people probably couldn't tell a 1db change in sound let alone a 5db change in 16khz, as that region is already vastly lower in level to their ears if at all there...

But that's just my opinion based on my eperiences with engineering and studies on hearing loss that have been done...

But either way, a change at 16khz is always going to be much less noticeable than a change at say 10khz.

 

[luisdent]

I feel a little guilty for liking the xr so much... :-o

 

[vapman]

I feel a little guilty for liking the xr so much... :-o

You shouldn't be. IMO @EtyDave 's description is exactly as I remember them.
 
I'm ordering myself an XR the day Paypal money clears to my card. I so wish I had them in my hands already.

 

[luisdent]

Yeah. I'm still biased towards the er4sr though. It sounds so phenomenal. I'm amazed at what they did with the treble... I almost thought it was a bit too boosted in the very upper treble at first, but now when i switch back to the er4s they sound a touch non-distinct in that regard. And the difference is slight so it's not like they went all out and changed the signature much. but it is crisp enough up high that things just have a whole new life compared to the er4s.

percussion elements sound clearer, and you can here the reverb trails and echoes ring into the distance more easily and longer. and the fact the the 2-3khz area boost from the er4s (although slight) is eliminated makes them sound so incredibly reference. i think the 2-3khz bump is partly what made the er4s sound overly smooth. it is also what brought out vocals and things a bit into the forefront.

in fact, as an audio engineer I can tell you a common problem with mixes that go to a mastering engineer is that there is too much in the 2-3khz frequency area. it is common for people to boost that region in all the instruments, because when mixing it brings the instrument out and forefront more, but while that sounds good in isolation, as a full mix everything ends up becoming heavily boosted in that region and many mastering engineers will tell you they need to reduce that area with most submissions.

Anyhow, the er4sr sounds better in that regard. Some people might initially find the vocals sound a very slight bit more recessed (i did), but once you are more familiar with the sound, in my opinion they are closer to reference neutrality. I've always felt an earphone or headphone is better with less 3khz than more if i had to choose, but the er4sr now gets it just right. while i'm sure the response isn't perfect (they don't claim that it is) this change helps them sound much less "fatiguing" in that regard. Not that I personally had a problem with that, but I understand how some people find that region to cause fatigue with loud and long listening sessions.

So at this point I'm feeling the er4s is an excellent upgrade to the er4s. yes, an "upgrade". the difference aren't great, but they are changing the experience for me for the better. the bass feels like it is improved, even though they aren't really any more bassy. I believe part of this is the refined treble. many people may not realize this, but even basses have treble, and hearing the high treble of a bass guitar helps define the attack of the bass and therefore makes you "hear" the bass better. that is absolutely true of the er4sr. bass in general just sounds slightly improved.

i must add that the increased sensitivity is welcome too. on my portable fuze the volume is easier on the 4sr. i can run the er4s at -14 on one song and -24 will give a similar general volume on the er4sr. i don't notice any hiss whatsoever with the er4sr or er4xr. nor do i notice any obvious changes in frequency between a few various devices with different output impedances. I haven't tested the 75 ohm adapter, but most portable players aren't that high output impedance.

sorry for spitting out all of my thoughts randomly, but i'm listening as i type. ha. I've probably had these things in my ears so long that are fusing into my ear bones.

but i wanted to also say that the change in treble brings out tape hiss and things like that in songs a bit more. in my opinion this is an improvement. it doesn't exaggerate the noises, but I believe it allows you to hear the flaws even more than the er4s did. that was one thing i always felt a bit disappointed in with the er4s, that the ability to compare songs with noise reduction was tough sometimes. when i buy albums i can't STAND over dynamic compression (i.e. loudness war) or noise reduction. i don't care if the album has tape noise. if that was part of the master recording i want to hear it. you cannot remove tape noise or hiss without destructively harming the audio otherwise. not even complex noise reduction algorithms can do this completely.

anyhow, i used to bring my er4s to a record store and compare to albums with a portable cd player (yes i'm that determined to get a well mastered version of every cd i own). it was difficult sometimes to discern between to albums whether they had noise reduction or not, but I could take the album home and on my studio monitors the difference was much more obvious. in fact, i started using less accurate earphones just to check these types of things.

the er4sr seem to reveal this properly. I haven't tested it extensively, but the treble sounds sufficiently more revealing in the upper region to me to be able to discern smaller difference than the er4s was able to.

 

[luisdent]

Also, the connector fits in the phone case i have, whereas the er4s did not. they did a great job of making it more narrow where it matters, without making the connect much different. and the cable is softer and more pliable.

that would be my biggest concern, whether or not the cable lasts as long and through as much movement as my old er4s cable. that thing just feels like a beast, but is very useable (to me). the er4sr is a much more supple and flexible cable. i highly prefer it "if" it lasts long. the bottom half has a very nice smooth layer over it that is nice to the touch. can't comment on microphonics, or better "cable noise" as I haven't compared them much, but with the shirt clip (as usual) i have absolutely no noise issues.



I always wear it in a manner like this. so that the cable "above" the shirt clip hangs a bit below the clip. essentially taking weight off the cable by suspending it upwards a bit, if that makes sense. has always workd for me. give you freedom to move your head, and prevents noises well.

 

[Francisk]

   
I haven't gone silent, I just ran myself into the ground a bit this week and slept for a LOOOOOOONNNNGGGG time last night.  Plus, we had the fun of a power outage earlier today.  I guess we shouldn't have turned all our air conditioners on at the same time. 

 
Based on the graph, It looks to be in the 15-16k range where the earphones differ.  I'd be amazed if you could notice the difference.
 
For fun, you could try a quick test.  Without looking at which channel is which, close your eyes and listen.  Then swap the channels and see if you can tell tell the difference.  It's very important not to know which side you start with.  I would recommend doing multiple tests with different music and write down the results before looking to see which channel it is.  Better yet, have a friend hand you the earphones in random orientations and write down the results. 

I'd like to add that in order to do the above test properly, make sure you're listening to a mono source eg. mono sum the audio file from a stereo file so that you're not tricked by the high frequency deviation from a stereo file. All stereo files tend to have different instrument placement in the stereo field eg. high hats panned slightly to the left or right channel depending on the sound engineer that mixed the song.

 

[Francisk]

Ok I've put together a playlist of songs of various genres and listened to the er4s with new filters for a while. Popped the er4sr in, and while it is a relatively small difference they are definitely more crispy and less nasaly... You almost wouldn't notice a difference until certain instruments start playing and you think "wow, that just stands out much more crisply".

So i can say with certainty that my er4sr is slightly more crispy than my er4s and has a bitt less upper mid coolness for lack of better words.

If i had to describe them this way, I'd say they sound more like the mids and treble of a dynamic iem from my experience. In that they are a bit more dry sounding. Only the signature is etymotic which is amazing.

I literally hear more bass and treble grit (in a good way) that makes everything sound more distinct. I can also say for sure now that while you may hear the same instruments with both, every single insteument i hear stands out more on the er4s, especially things in the back of a mix like vocal harmonies, guitars, etc. you hear the individuality of the instruments more. Very awesome in that regard.

I haven't even tried the er4xr yet. But there is no way they can touch the er4sr the way they sound now to me. At least for accuracy and studio quality. but I'm really curious.

The overall impression as a whole to me is that the er4sr lets you hear more transparently. I've always thought the er4s was the best treble of any iem ever. but i immediately thought the er4sr was better trebble. But i wasn't sure if the change in mids/mid treble was worth that improvement. But the more i hear and compare the less i think that. The honkiness some people find the er4s to have is a bit improved. That, combined with the improved treble clarity up high and bass perception makes these overall sound more "correct" as to what i would expect to hear on a studio monitor speaker or just in real life. The small delicate crispness of intruments is captured better. Guitar strings have a more metallic breath to them. Vocals with rasp sound more raspy, basses with amp grit sound more gritty. Small electronic and creative "sounds" that are all over the stereo field just plain sound more distinct.

The distinctness is winning me over. There is nothing you can't hear in a mix. It's damn impressive...

Your description of the ER4SR is very similar to what I'm experiencing from my ER4B with the Etymotic red filter paired with the grey triple flange tips....better high frequency details with less 2-4kHz honkiness compared to my ER4S.

 

[luisdent]

 

Ok I've put together a playlist of songs of various genres and listened to the er4s with new filters for a while. Popped the er4sr in, and while it is a relatively small difference they are definitely more crispy and less nasaly... You almost wouldn't notice a difference until certain instruments start playing and you think "wow, that just stands out much more crisply".

So i can say with certainty that my er4sr is slightly more crispy than my er4s and has a bitt less upper mid coolness for lack of better words.

If i had to describe them this way, I'd say they sound more like the mids and treble of a dynamic iem from my experience. In that they are a bit more dry sounding. Only the signature is etymotic which is amazing.

I literally hear more bass and treble grit (in a good way) that makes everything sound more distinct. I can also say for sure now that while you may hear the same instruments with both, every single insteument i hear stands out more on the er4s, especially things in the back of a mix like vocal harmonies, guitars, etc. you hear the individuality of the instruments more. Very awesome in that regard.

I haven't even tried the er4xr yet. But there is no way they can touch the er4sr the way they sound now to me. At least for accuracy and studio quality. but I'm really curious.

The overall impression as a whole to me is that the er4sr lets you hear more transparently. I've always thought the er4s was the best treble of any iem ever. but i immediately thought the er4sr was better trebble. But i wasn't sure if the change in mids/mid treble was worth that improvement. But the more i hear and compare the less i think that. The honkiness some people find the er4s to have is a bit improved. That, combined with the improved treble clarity up high and bass perception makes these overall sound more "correct" as to what i would expect to hear on a studio monitor speaker or just in real life. The small delicate crispness of intruments is captured better. Guitar strings have a more metallic breath to them. Vocals with rasp sound more raspy, basses with amp grit sound more gritty. Small electronic and creative "sounds" that are all over the stereo field just plain sound more distinct.

The distinctness is winning me over. There is nothing you can't hear in a mix. It's damn impressive...

Your description of the ER4SR is exactly what I'm experiencing from my ER4B with the Etymotic red filter paired with the grey triple flange tips....better high frequency details minus the honkiness compared to my ER4S.

it probably has a similar effect I'm sure. As the red filters definitely reduced the honkiness, however I have a feeling the er4sr is a bit more even all around than the er4b. Because the er4s boosted the treble smoothly, but the red filter doesn't necessarily reduce the treble completely linearly. But then it is hard to say without hearing or measuring it.
 
The er4sr is something else, let me tell you. I'm not completely writing off the er4s though. I switched back, and it is definitely no detail slouch. And the mids and treble are definitely still a bit smoother sounding to my ears than the er4sr. But yet the er4sr sounds more accurate in upper treble details and overal "body" of sound throughout the spectrum. But if I know me, I'll probably just keep them all, because I'll never be able to choose between them. haha.
 
the er4s gains in incredible detail and crispness what the er4s gains in smooth silkiness. This is most noticeable where the er4s simply sounds gorgeous with strings and soundtrack type orchestral pieces such as james horner, hans zimmer and the like. While the er4sr just blows you away with quality on tracks like pop/rock and more electronic things.
 
But they are so good overall, each of them. And I almost wish the er4sr has just a slight bit more of that er4s smoothness back. But alas, nothing is perfect. I'd easily say all three of these are the best earphone on the planet.each with just a slight difference that makes it desirable for certain songs. But I will really need a lot more time to formulate a real detailed comparison. I know from experience my impressions can change. For instance, I'm almost thinking the er4sr has more in the 5-6khz region than the er4s, but i haven't played with eq or anything yet and don't want to jump to conclusions.
 
Anyhow, i'll keep rambling until someone tells me to stop. but i'll try and stay general with my impressions until much more time has been put into listening to the newer models.

 

[EmPathWalker]

hi
 
I'm an ETY noob here with a second hand pair of ER4 somethings. I don't even know which version I've got ( I must check )
 
As the thread title includes the word "love" I figured I might be welcome just to say hi, and to say I'm in love with these things already.
 
Hey, at least us second hand noobs create a market you guys can cash back into when you move on, right?
 
haha,   all's well that sounds good. These things are amazing.

 

[AnyDave]

Also, the connector fits in the phone case i have, whereas the er4s did not. they did a great job of making it more narrow where it matters, without making the connect much different. and the cable is softer and more pliable.

that would be my biggest concern, whether or not the cable lasts as long and through as much movement as my old er4s cable. that thing just feels like a beast, but is very useable (to me). the er4sr is a much more supple and flexible cable. i highly prefer it "if" it lasts long. the bottom half has a very nice smooth layer over it that is nice to the touch. can't comment on microphonics, or better "cable noise" as I haven't compared them much, but with the shirt clip (as usual) i have absolutely no noise issues.



I always wear it in a manner like this. so that the cable "above" the shirt clip hangs a bit below the clip. essentially taking weight off the cable by suspending it upwards a bit, if that makes sense. has always workd for me. give you freedom to move your head, and prevents noises well.

 

 
it probably has a similar effect I'm sure. As the red filters definitely reduced the honkiness, however I have a feeling the er4sr is a bit more even all around than the er4b. Because the er4s boosted the treble smoothly, but the red filter doesn't necessarily reduce the treble completely linearly. But then it is hard to say without hearing or measuring it.
 
The er4sr is something else, let me tell you. I'm not completely writing off the er4s though. I switched back, and it is definitely no detail slouch. And the mids and treble are definitely still a bit smoother sounding to my ears than the er4sr. But yet the er4sr sounds more accurate in upper treble details and overal "body" of sound throughout the spectrum. But if I know me, I'll probably just keep them all, because I'll never be able to choose between them. haha.
 
the er4s gains in incredible detail and crispness what the er4s gains in smooth silkiness. This is most noticeable where the er4s simply sounds gorgeous with strings and soundtrack type orchestral pieces such as james horner, hans zimmer and the like. While the er4sr just blows you away with quality on tracks like pop/rock and more electronic things.
 
But they are so good overall, each of them. And I almost wish the er4sr has just a slight bit more of that er4s smoothness back. But alas, nothing is perfect. I'd easily say all three of these are the best earphone on the planet.each with just a slight difference that makes it desirable for certain songs. But I will really need a lot more time to formulate a real detailed comparison. I know from experience my impressions can change. For instance, I'm almost thinking the er4sr has more in the 5-6khz region than the er4s, but i haven't played with eq or anything yet and don't want to jump to conclusions.
 
Anyhow, i'll keep rambling until someone tells me to stop. but i'll try and stay general with my impressions until much more time has been put into listening to the newer models.

 
FWIW, the red (2200 ohm) damper will definitely damp the primary peak more than the green (1500 ohm) damper.  One of these days, if anybody is interested, I can probably make comparative measurements.

 

[AnyDave]

  hi
 
I'm an ETY noob here with a second hand pair of ER4 somethings. I don't even know which version I've got ( I must check )
 
As the thread title includes the word "love" I figured I might be welcome just to say hi, and to say I'm in love with these things already.
 
Hey, at least us second hand noobs create a market you guys can cash back into when you move on, right?
 
haha,   all's well that sounds good. These things are amazing.

 
Whether it's a new purchase or a 20 year old earphone, I'm always grateful whenever somebody enjoys what we do.
 
There's nothing wrong at all with being a second hand buyer and enjoying what you've got.  Thanks for the positive feedback.

 

[Francisk]

 
it probably has a similar effect I'm sure. As the red filters definitely reduced the honkiness, however I have a feeling the er4sr is a bit more even all around than the er4b. Because the er4s boosted the treble smoothly, but the red filter doesn't necessarily reduce the treble completely linearly. But then it is hard to say without hearing or measuring it.
 
The er4sr is something else, let me tell you. I'm not completely writing off the er4s though. I switched back, and it is definitely no detail slouch. And the mids and treble are definitely still a bit smoother sounding to my ears than the er4sr. But yet the er4sr sounds more accurate in upper treble details and overal "body" of sound throughout the spectrum. But if I know me, I'll probably just keep them all, because I'll never be able to choose between them. haha.
 
the er4s gains in incredible detail and crispness what the er4s gains in smooth silkiness. This is most noticeable where the er4s simply sounds gorgeous with strings and soundtrack type orchestral pieces such as james horner, hans zimmer and the like. While the er4sr just blows you away with quality on tracks like pop/rock and more electronic things.
 
But they are so good overall, each of them. And I almost wish the er4sr has just a slight bit more of that er4s smoothness back. But alas, nothing is perfect. I'd easily say all three of these are the best earphone on the planet.each with just a slight difference that makes it desirable for certain songs. But I will really need a lot more time to formulate a real detailed comparison. I know from experience my impressions can change. For instance, I'm almost thinking the er4sr has more in the 5-6khz region than the er4s, but i haven't played with eq or anything yet and don't want to jump to conclusions.
 
Anyhow, i'll keep rambling until someone tells me to stop. but i'll try and stay general with my impressions until much more time has been put into listening to the newer models.

Thanks for your honest thoughts of the ER4SR, very much appreciated Luisdent. The treble details on my ER4B (ER4P converted to ER4B via ClieOS' cable with the built-in P -> B resistor) is still very smooth to my ears, just a tad more high frequency details compared to the ER4S. The Etymotic red filter attenuates a bit of the 2-4kHz honkiness without sacrificing the nice treble details of the ER4B. Since the ER4B with red filters' sound signature seems so similar to the description of the new ER4SR, it's pretty hard to quantify the difference of the ER4SR. I wish someone here who owns a ER4B with red filters can do a direct comparison with the new ER4SR and give their honest opinion. I'm leaning a little more towards the ER4XR if I were to purchase a new pair because of the low frequency lift. I guess it's just me being me...I'm not too keen in paying $350 for a 1% sound improvement. I'll wait for more feedback and maybe get to test the ER4XR soon before taking the plunge.