[pete99]

   
Maybe I don't have the words to come across with what I'm trying to say......
....
I'm not sure, that the margin is there for this kind of deeper development work - it has to be paid by the margin on the products.

 
In the first place, 100% respect for your English - it is really excellent.  I mean that.
 
Secondly, I really think we mostly agree.  I'd like all DX80 firmware releases to sound exactly like 1.1.4 (but minus its major bugs).  If that is the iBasso 'house sound' then it's fine by me!  It shows that the hardware has the capability to produce an outstanding sound quality, well above the average for the price range of the DX80 (something I think most reviewers acclaim on the DX80).
 
I simply don't know (either) whether it's possible to 'tune' the DX80 hardware to a consistent sound signature the way we would both like.  Getting the best (more) from the hardware would surely increase its sales.  Paul (iBasso)?  Any comments.  Ditto Lurker?

 

[Kerouac]

  Yes, that was what I just wrote a few posts back (#4209), as an example on sticking to a house sound. The Pono is developed by Charles Hansen of Ayre, and the Pono sound like an Ayre digital product.

 
Sorry, my mistake!
I must admit that I had skipped some posts => won't happen again

 

[MortenB]

All good, and as you say: The Pono is an example showing, that a certain house sound can be engineered into a cheaper portable player. In this case the Ayre Acoustics house sound of Charles Hansen.
 
It seems like Pono has some serious funding to back them up, and to pay for the development. Not sure if iBasso and others have the same options and ressources for their development.
 
Funny thing: For me it was a decision between the Pono and the DX80. I choose the DX80 because of better battery life, smaller size, better UI, better build quality, capacity for two cards etc, and I did not think the DX80 gave up much in sound quality, if anything at all. They did both sound quite natural, this was the DX80 with the older FW of course 

 

 

[MortenB]

 
I simply don't know (either) whether it's possible to 'tune' the DX80 hardware to a consistent sound signature

Or flip the argument / question around: Can you think of any reason why it should not be possible to tune an audio player in the directin of a certain sound?  I can't really think of any reasons...

 

[Lurker0]

  Ditto Lurker?

I've commented it many times. It's a hardware design issue. Frankly, DX80 sound signature depends on software much less than DX90, or DX50, or DX100. So, if you look back, for iBasso, DX80 is a clear jump forward hardwarewise.
 
Reading discussions (mostly in Russian audio forums) regarding Fiio, QLS, A&K products, in DX80 price range or much more expensive, I see the same problem, more or less expressed.
 
Being hardware design related, it can't be controlled by software. So, if you sensitive to such a problem, just wait for several firmware releases before purchasing, or the one that suits your needs both from functionality and sound sides, and stick with it. Just like some people waited for the 3rd service pack of M$ products

 

[pete99]

  I've commented it many times. It's a hardware design issue. Frankly, DX80 sound signature depends on software much less than DX90, or DX50, or DX100. So, if you look back, for iBasso, DX80 is a clear jump forward hardwarewise.
 
Reading discussions (mostly in Russian audio forums) regarding Fiio, QLS, A&K products, in DX80 price range or much more expensive, I see the same problem, more or less expressed.
 
Being hardware design related, it can't be controlled by software. So, if you sensitive to such a problem, just wait for several firmware releases before purchasing, or the one that suits your needs both from functionality and sound sides, and stick with it. Just like some people waited for the 3rd service pack of M$ products

 
Thank you.  Well said!

 

[pete99]

  Or flip the argument / question around: Can you think of any reason why it should not be possible to tune an audio player in the directin of a certain sound?  I can't really think of any reasons...

 
The less electronic 'messing' with the sound, the better.  If you want to mess with the sound you can use EQ but for me I'm done with that stuff.  Most noticeable change from trading up from Cowon S9 to DX80 is that with Cowon I needed all the Cowon enhancements to make the music sound pleasing.  With DX80 it's pleasing just as it comes - i.e. with no EQ.  And better / more natural etc. too.  On all of the firmwares.
 
Please also see Lurker's reply.  He knows way more than me.  If he says it, it is so.

 

[Lurker0]

For QLS QA360, I remind you that the manufacturer even tried to exploit this "feature", by releasing different firmwares: for WAV only, and for all formats, but failed to keep sound signature consistency anyway.

 

[MortenB]

   
Please also see Lurker's reply.  He knows way more than me.  If he says it, it is so.

I fully agree with Lurker, that by far the biggest part of the sonic signature of a product like the DX80 is down to the hardware and the way it's implemented. I just thought we were talking about the remaining part of the sound influenced by firm ware.

 

[pete99]

  I fully agree with Lurker, that by far the biggest part of the sonic signature of a product like the DX80 is down to the hardware and the way it's implemented. I just thought we were talking about the remaining part of the sound influenced by firm ware.

Lurker said 

 Being hardware design related, it can't be controlled by software.

The remaining part of the sound, if influenced by the firmware, appears to be uncontrollable.  That is my interpretation of what he said - I hope (and believe) I'm interpreting his post correctly.
 
So... what I guess happens is that the iBasso firmware gurus introduce new UI features, compile and build the firmware image, and the way the image is laid out in memory when it runs, or its interaction with the cpu clock cycles, alters the way the sound is input into the hardware and therefore changes the 'sound signature'.
 
I'm checking out of this conversation for the time being as I clearly have no further expertise to contribute! 

 

 

[MortenB]

That is not what I read. What I read is, that Lurker state that hardware related stuff can't be controlled by software related stuff, and I fully agree. You can't change the sonic signature of -say- an opamp in the output stage by software.
 
He also mention, that software has less influence on the sound in the DX80 compared to the DX50, 90 and 100.. Meaning that software still has some influence on the sound. He did not mention, that software has NO influence on sound. Check the two digital filters. Slightly different sound = Software can influence sound on the DX80.
 
But you are right... Better check out, we can't get anywhere with this anyway. We are comparing apples and oranges.

 

[audio123]

this is so dx90-ish but I am not complaining hehe

 

[Lurker0]

So... what I guess happens is that the iBasso firmware gurus introduce new UI features, compile and build the firmware image, and the way the image is laid out in memory when it runs, or its interaction with the cpu clock cycles, alters the way the sound is input into the hardware and therefore changes the 'sound signature'.

Yes, in general, you are right. The most of the influence goes via the common power supply. Also RF noise that CPU, RAM, flash etc. generate when they work.

That's why I lock CPU frequency in my firmware mods: if the influence can't be eliminated, better to have it even, uniform, than random.

 

[sludgeogre]

I've owned a bunch of Fiio products and I can agree that companies certainly pick up a house sound. It is obvious to me that Fiio is going for a warm presentation, and I think that a lot of people prefer that. Fiio is great at listening to the market and giving people what they want and I think they have done a great job of that. I was a fan of it, but got tired of that warm sound as I prefer the analytical sound of the rest of my gear.
 
What I really love about iBasso is that they are dedicated to making a top notch player that sounds as neutral as possible. This is what I see and hear. I don't really notice any difference between FW updates at all, honestly, it has just sounded clean, clear, and true to the music at every step. I wish there were more companies with this outlook. Schiit is certainly there, and my Ascend Acoustics speakers are the most clean, clear, accurate, and honest speakers I've ever heard as well. I'm really glad that I could add a DAP to my gear that accomplishes the same goals.
 
It's actually pretty confusing to me to read all of the issues and talk of sound differences, and I'm sure it's insanely frustrating for iBasso to try to sift through it as well. I wish them the best of luck in nailing down all of these issues, especially before the DX200 is released. 

 

[audio123]

  I've owned a bunch of Fiio products and I can agree that companies certainly pick up a house sound. It is obvious to me that Fiio is going for a warm presentation, and I think that a lot of people prefer that. Fiio is great at listening to the market and giving people what they want and I think they have done a great job of that. I was a fan of it, but got tired of that warm sound as I prefer the analytical sound of the rest of my gear.
 
What I really love about iBasso is that they are dedicated to making a top notch player that sounds as neutral as possible. This is what I see and hear. I don't really notice any difference between FW updates at all, honestly, it has just sounded clean, clear, and true to the music at every step. I wish there were more companies with this outlook. Schiit is certainly there, and my Ascend Acoustics speakers are the most clean, clear, accurate, and honest speakers I've ever heard as well. I'm really glad that I could add a DAP to my gear that accomplishes the same goals.
 
It's actually pretty confusing to me to read all of the issues and talk of sound differences, and I'm sure it's insanely frustrating for iBasso to try to sift through it as well. I wish them the best of luck in nailing down all of these issues, especially before the DX200 is released. 

Oo for me fiio is bright sounding!