[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph0rk /img/forum/go_quote.gif If the op is referring to me, he is slightly incorrect as I had my 'system' already, tried the 701's, and disliked them. (whether you think the system wasn't up to snuff with the 701's or not aside). Finding information about a popular headphone can be a huge pain - there are thousands of posts about k701's, hd650's, dt 770/880/990's. Many of them may even be wrong. Without something like a headphone sq/pairings wiki, sifting through 4+ years of forum cruft just isn't an efficient way to figure out whether a pair of headphones may work for you. Instead you'll find a lengthy post based on new toy euphoria, or claims that x quality really is great/pretty good, when it is actually a reaction to a deficiency (k701 bass, for example). Actually, a wiki is probably a good idea. All the cool forums have them now.

Yes, but you dismissed a headphone without checking out what it needed to sound good before you bought it. People advised you give it some burn-in time, as that is another need of this headphone, and you also ignored that. That's fine if that's your choice, but you've since then posted your opinions in someone else's thread asking about the K701s, without stating your limited system with them, which is really bad form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph0rk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Aiiii!! The 701's will have less bass than your 570's, and probably generally sound smoother. From my brief ownership of the 701's, I felt they did metal and rock better than electronic music, so you'll probably be happy there.

It's possible that you may not like the K701 sound no matter how great the system around it, but how the heck would you know since you've never even heard them even close as to how they really sound. You complain that it tough to do research and that some advice may be wrong. It's posts like yours that add to that confusion.

 

[ph0rk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, but you dismissed a headphone without checking out what it needed to sound good before you bought it. People advised you give it some burn-in time, as that is another need of this headphone, and you also ignored that. That's fine if that's your choice, but you've since then posted your opinions in someone else's thread asking about the K701s, without stating your limited system with them, which is really bad form. It's possible that you may not like the K701 sound no matter how great the system around it, but how the heck would you know since you've never even heard them even close as to how they really sound. You complain that it tough to do research and that some advice may be wrong. It's posts like yours that add to that confusion.

I spent more time than I cared to researching it. I have crap to do, so I bought it figuring I could unload it if I disliked it, and they sold quite fast. My audition cost me around $30, and thats fine with me. Searches for "k701 bass" give one the impression that it really is fine, and probably even through mid-level amps.

A week earlier I posted a thread asking for suggestions for a headphone to compliment my dt-770's, and I was interested in trying a different signature. I mentioned the music I listened to, the source/dac, and my price range. I included all the information people usually get flamed for not including, and how much feedback did I get? Zero.


One snarky thread about my out-of-the-box experience though, and three pages. I don't think people are really that interested in being helpful here as much as they are in flaming - it seems flamebait is the only way to generate a response.

 

[plaidplatypus]

The balanced KSC-35 are the way to go!

On a more serious note, there needs to be a sticky "suggestions" thread as to what a well matched home system would consist of at a few different price levels and with different manufactures so as not to play favorites. This should be put together by several unbiased or low biased head-fiers. I think the National meet would be a great place to do this due to the sheer abundace of gear.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph0rk /img/forum/go_quote.gif A week earlier I posted a thread asking for suggestions for a headphone to compliment my dt-770's, and I was interested in trying a different signature. I mentioned the music I listened to, the source/dac, and my price range. I included all the information people usually get flamed for not including, and how much feedback did I get? Zero. One snarky thread about my out-of-the-box experience though, and three pages. I don't think people are really that interested in being helpful here as much as they are in flaming - it seems flamebait is the only way to generate a response.

Which really stinks. I disagree that people don't want to be helpful, though. I see it time and time again. Even in your snarky thread, people were trying to be helpful in non-snarky ways.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plaidplatypus /img/forum/go_quote.gif The balanced KSC-35 are the way to go! On a more serious note, there needs to be a sticky "suggestions" thread as to what a well matched home system would consist of at a few different price levels and with different manufactures so as not to play favorites. This should be put together by several unbiased or low biased head-fiers. I think the National meet would be a great place to do this due to the sheer abundace of gear.

Not a bad idea at all.

 

[ph0rk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Which really stinks. I disagree that people don't want to be helpful, though. I see it time and time again. Even in your snarky thread, people were trying to be helpful in non-snarky ways.

And after the opener, I tried to be as un-snarky as possible. With any luck the next guy looking for information about the 701 will find the thread (though he didn't, even while it was on the front page).

If I could encapsulate my dislike for the 701's now it would probably low bass extension. I suppose it is possible that better amplification could help that, but in my case its easier to just replace them. I surely -did- do many a search about the bass issue, and feel slightly misled. They sounded better to me with a rounded bass hump from 32-250hz of about 5-6db, but that just told me I needed something else.

Had there been a wiki or stickied list of commonly used phones and their drawbacks (high current for hd650/k701, etc), I probably never would have bought them, but I'm glad I did, because now I have an idea about the (current) AKG family sound.

 

[krmathis]

Very well said!
I have also notice the same trend. That a person buy a nice pair of headphones (ex. Sennheiser HD650), then drive it directly from an iPod or CD players headphone out.
He might end up not liking them, and put the blame on the headphones. While he actually should blame the bad amplification, or system matching.

In my opinion they should hear the headphone properly driven before they bash on.

 

[catscratch]

I think there is another part to this issue: a lot of people come to head-fi with pre-conceived expectations and fairly large egos, and refuse to believe members with more experience when they tell them that their plan simply will not work. Only too recently I was in a thread in which it took an awful lot of persuasion to convince a poster that the headphones he wanted to try would not work with the rig he had in mind. Fortunately he listened, and saved himself a lot of money and frustration, but a lot of people don't. They don't have either the desire or the ability to take honest advice from people with more experience, and post here seeking a more a confirmation of their views than anything else.

I think this is par for the course. You learn from experience, and if you've been told again and again that, let's say (hypothetically), the K1000 will not work straight out of a DAP, but you refused to listen and went that route anyway, you will be more inclined to listen to advice in the future after you fall miserably on your face.

The problem comes when you are back here telling that the K1000 is rubbish - I mean, you tried it with your iPod with 128 bit mp3's and it sounded awful!

Well, yes, but it's up to everyone to understand that everything that you read here is not worth its weight in gold. Everything here is opinion, even this useless rant here, and should not be taken for granted unless you happen to trust the source. Then, it's on your head.

But you know what the real problem is? Head-fi has become too popular, and has attracted too many mainstream members. I don't want to point fingers here or start any old members > new members flame war, but every time you start reaping more, you get more chaff with your wheat. We are very big now, and we have a lot of members we'd rather do without. Like the people that run K1k's off mp3 players and then mouth off about how bad they are without being able to process what they're told, or having no desire to do so (this has NOTHING to do with the incident mentioned in this thread BTW, it's just global generalizing on my part). Or the people who are so blindly devoted to a single headphone that they simply cannot fathom that somewhere out there, there exists something better, and who get upset when people who really have heard better chime in to put them in their place.

Once again, I think this is par for the course. You get bigger, you get more commercial, you get more mainstream appeal, and you pick up more mainstream members. Thread quality goes down, but it doesn't go out of the window, and there's still plenty of interesting threads to read and plenty of good advice to be had.

I agree wholeheartedly that any headphone recommendation has to be made in the context of its intended use and its associated gear. The head-fi philosophy of "get the best headphone that you can afford and then worry about the rest of the system later" is in my opinion destructive and wrong. That doesn't mean, of course, that I haven't been guilty of doing this at one point or another.

As far as system building goes, I believe that synergy is more important than anything else, as long as your transducer is up to par in the vitally important ways.

My K340 is very bright, and sounds like rubbish out of most amps. It can't be used portably, it has the bass extension of a cell phone, and in the wrong system its treble is about as pleasant as having drill bits stuck in your ears. It is, however, fairly cheap. My MG Head OTL (which is also very cheap) is a lousy amp - the bass has the definition of a wooly sock, detail seems to have gone out together with definition to the local pub, got drunk, and forgot to show up to the show, and the whole thing is so warm and thick sounding that you may as well be listening to speakers while drowning in a barrel of maple syrup.

But together, they work magic. They compensate for each other's weaknesses, and sound far better than the sum of their respective costs would have you believe.

Synergy. It's the best way to get wonderful sound on a less than wonderful budget.

But, to get that, you have to listen to experienced members who know exactly how to build these rigs - provided that you don't find these combinations out for yourself.

[Edit: just to reiterate, since we're all so sensitive that we can't take a bit of brutal honesty - I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. I'm just honestly saying what's on my mind, as I always do.]

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif My K340 is very bright, and sounds like rubbish out of most amps. It can't be used portably, it has the bass extension of a cell phone, and in the wrong system its treble is about as pleasant as having drill bits stuck in your ears. It is, however, fairly cheap. My MG Head OTL (which is also very cheap) is a lousy amp - the bass has the definition of a wooly sock, detail seems to have gone out together with definition to the local pub, got drunk, and forgot to show up to the show, and the whole thing is so warm and thick sounding that you may as well be listening to speakers while drowning in a barrel of maple syrup. But together, they work magic.

That's just beautiful!

 

[Asr]

I think much needs to be considered from the perspective of the newcomers. I remember when I started reading this site back when I first joined. If people had told me that I needed to see the whole picture and invest in a new source, and an amp, along with the new headphones I was considering, I probably would've said "screw this, I guess I'll just look for some cheap headphones then and be done with it." When I started out I was just looking for a closed headphone - when I look where I am now, it's just surreal. Did I plan or even hope for any of this? Hell no, and I think if I could go back in time and start over, I would NOT end up where I am now, on the brink of a balanced system. I probably would've stuck with single-ended, on a much cheaper system.

No one can predict the future, and no one truly knows what they want until they start getting deeper and deeper into this "hobby." To ask for expectations, budgets, and system-building aspirations is more than the average newcomer can handle. If I had read this in 2004, I know for a fact this thread would turn me off immediately towards progressing further, and I probably would've stuck to a very simple system.

It certainly would be nice if newcomers took into consideration the whole picture of headphones, amps, sources, and cables, but I foresee this thread doing two things: (1) turning off those who'd like to just get their feet wet, and (2) advancing motivation for those who are prepared to dive in head first.

There are many more people now who just want to get their feet wet. Not everyone has a budget high enough to get into this hobby, and even those who do probably aren't prepared either, unless maybe they're from speaker-fi. The concept of system-building can be foreign and scary - I was there once, and personally for me it's been an ongoing frustrating journey getting it all right.

I mean, trying to get into the mindset of system-building is a frustrating exercise in itself, and like granodemostasa said, meets are highly beneficial, from a general perspective. Meets are the best way to find the equipment you don't like - it's easier to hear "bad" sound at meets than it is to hear "good" sound. But at the same time, meets have definite negatives - not just the exposure to so much expensive equipment, but moreso the fact that the array of equipment at a meet can combine in so many different ways that so many different sounds can be achieved, simply by rotating 1 piece of equipment in a chain. The sound isn't being tuned, it's the listener's ears, in order to gain knowledge and appreciation, and personal taste. It's negative because it increases knowledge, and the more knowledge that people tend to get in this hobby, the more personal and picky they tend to get as a result. Knowledge is NOT a good thing for those looking for a simple, easy solution. The more knowledge that's attained, the longer it will take to pin down a system. Once you know the sounds from different amps, or from different sources, or from different headphones, more and more variables are added into the process - you want more of THAT sound from 1 component, along with a sprinkle of THAT sound from another component, and a dash of THAT sound from a third component. And then trying to piece together a system that achieves all this just gets more and more complicated, and that can devolve into futility.

I do agree that not enough people come to this site and look at & assess the entire system, but I'm not convinced that trying to create a trend towards that is going to be very beneficial. Not everyone has the budget or desire to piece a system, and those who do are in for a world of research, decisions, meets, etc, and personally I wouldn't wish that kind of experience on anyone. It's too time-consuming, too money-draining, too much effort. STOP the research, STOP the decisions, STOP going to meets, and FIND what you can settle with - because audio is personal, and the best audio is the one that you hear from whatever you have, no matter what it is.

 

[donunus]

I totally agree with asr and catscratches last posts.
I got into this hobby coming from speaker-fi which got too expensive and bothersome for the people next door when I had the urge to rock out

so I am really aware of all these things that you guys said on your posts. This is why I tend to look for source/amp friendly headphones like the 595s/ad2000s/grados etc...
There are people that go for headphones like the hd650 even when an ipod is their only source and say they are happy with their purchase. Oh well thats great but when time comes they become an audiophile, upradeitius will surely hit hard when they learn what can be achieved with their headphone's unused potential. This is all good if the person has the money for the upgrades but is really frustrating to those without cash.

My english writing is a bit messed up but I hope to also contribute and send a message to those who are not yet audiophiles and are hanging out at this forum. Read ASR and Catscratches post and take it seriously before you get dissapointed in your next purchase. To those who are initiated audiophiles, you know who you are(the ones that would postpone the car purchase to get a new piece of audio equipment

) Go ahead and ignore this whole thread and enjoy the Hobby. As for me, I have retired from being the hardcore audiophile so that my money could go to other things in life as well.

whoops, forgot to mention that I totally agree with boomanas original post and duggehs reply as well

Long Live Head-Fi!

 

[jpelg]

I think that despite Head-Fi's growth, the information is here for you to find if you look for it. Yes, the sheer volume of info posted can be overwhelming. Yes, you have to separate the wheat from the chaff. But it's in there.

I think that Jon_L's post regarding understanding your own expectations & needs/wants is spot on. Like any knowledge area, you have to understand the basic rules. Once you do, you can choose to follow them, or consciously buck them for your own reasons. Unfortunately, this wisdom only comes from experience, which often comes with trial & error.

When recommending to gear to others, unless they cite very specific needs/wants/plans, I favor a balanced systems approach. This, I feel, will lead to a greater percentage of satisfaction to most people. However, I don't always follow that approach because I understand my own needs, wants, & future plans better than anyone else could.

Regarding the specific incident cited here - how someone could possibly glean from this site that AKG K701's have anything close to the kind of bass response/impact that a DT770 does, especially unamped, is beyond me.

 

[slwiser]

My take is that it is a good thing to learn from mistakes and buying the wrong equipment is what made the "experts" experts. This is a hobby after-all. Going from one piece of equipment to another until you find something very closed to what you feel is your sound is something to enjoy. Yes, we will have disappointments along the way. Most of us here are not passive or we would not be posting so we are engaged in this hobby with an effort to learn what is available and how it sounds. I have enjoyed my pursuit of getting to where I am now. Maybe not finished but maybe I am near achieving a sound that I can live with. I have separate setups and each has it's own level of performance and I am fairly satisfied with each for what they represent.

I can't think of any other hobby where people expect to be perfect with the first attempt. This is simply unrealistic. If you purchased the "best setup" out of the blocks you would simple be ignorant of what your system represents. That being the culmination of a long set of someone else's experience in this hobby. You would not even be a hobbyist if you did that. You would not even need to be involved since what could you add to these discussions except possibly some arrogantly ignorant statement based on the real "experts" opinions.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Would it help if we created a seperate section on Head-Fi that dealt only with member's systems? It could be actual systems, or systems they're thinking about putting together, or even dream systems. But the focus on this sub forum would be to talk specifically about system synergy issues as opposed to individual components.

I think this might help matters. It would have to be a focused forum though or else it would degenerate into discussions about HD650 versus K701 like we see in the headphones forum. While there have been all sorts of productive discussions about headphone systems over the years, this information is for the most part buried in the archives because there has never been a central gathering place to talk about system synergy issues in an organized and focused manner.

Take a look at this section at Audiogon (under "Member's Systems" from the home page): http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frv.pl

I've always found this section of Audiogon to be most useful. They also have regular discussion forums like we do and the focus there tends to be on individual components (just like at Head-Fi): http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl

By having a seperate section for "Member's Systems" (and I think we could call it the same thing), they have really created something of value. As a new member there, you can get a really good sense of what somebody is all about (understand their knowledge, budget, experience level, etc) and also get to "know" them as individuals by asking questions on thier system threads.

At Head-Fi, we would have several members who could put together some interesting threads for any number of systems that they have enjoyed over the years. There could even be threads that describe how your system has evolved over time. These sorts of things often prove much more insightful to new (and even old) members than your opinions about specific products because they tend to do a better job at showing how your mind works! In other words, what factors caused you to put together your K701 system in the way that you did? As opposed to always hearing about how you prefer the K701 to the HD650 in an absolute sense, we can now see that you like prefer the K701 because it mates better with the x, y, and z that you also like.

While some of this information about any particular member may be gleaned from their profile, the reality is that very few of us spend any considerable amount of time digging into each other's profiles. Or at least I wouldn't think so; as interesting as it may be, it's just not very convenient to be always referring to member profiles. On top of that, profile information tends to be quite static whereas a thread about that same member's system will be much more dynamic and interactive.

The other benefit of adding a section like this to our site is that I think it would be highly educational in the sense that an HD595 user who is starting to think that maybe he should upgrade to the HD650s will have somewhere to look to see what other people have done in terms of building systems around the HD595. It may well save him the expense of the headphone upgrade if he can do it more cheaply through sources and amps, or simply try one more angle with the HD595 that he wouldn't have otherwise thought of before making his decision to sell them.

I think this is what Vicki is driving at in her original post. There are all sorts of interesting ways to put together headphone systems, and while we all do this on our own (as influenced by what others have suggested), it's not always clear where to look for this kind of information. I suspect that a dedicated "Member's Systems" section would help considerably in terms of organizing the information, but it would also have the added benefit of reinforcing the notion that system synergy matters more than the absolute "goodnees" of individual components. To that extent, it could be a rather mind opening and liberating experience in the sense that people wouldn't feel as forced as they do now to "defend" their choice of headphones or amps.

 

[swt61]

Edit-Wayne beat me to the punch! With an even better idea!

I agree completely boomana.

I own two of the hardest headphones there are to drive, the AKG K340 and the Chocolate Donut Orthodynamic. Only the AKG K1000 are more demanding IMO. I've owned several amps that will give the volume needed to listen to each of them. However driving a headphone to sufficient volume does not equate to properly driving the headphone.

This issue has been discussed time and time again especially in context with the K340, however even some well seasoned members constantly disregard this well documented belief, and make judgements and evaluations of the K340 without proper amplification. The fact that they're not newbs tends to give them some credibility with newer members, and because of that they may make a decision based on faulty information IMO.

The problem is not going to disapear, however I do believe there are steps than can be taken to help those who really want to make good choices.
A thread consisting of the various headphones popular here and what their requirements are to get the most from them would be a good start.

I would propose that for a member to post about a specific headphone and it's associated requirements in said thread he or she should have owned the gear in question for a specific amount of time. This would help with the "I heard them once and..." type of comments. Of coarse there would be people posting on differenig levels of associated equipment, so choices would be available.
It should be built as a reference thread without the usual argumentative opinions and digs. And should therefore be treated completely different than the average thread, and completely controlled by moderator/s chosen beforehand. These mods would have sole discretion over which posts would be valuable and informative, and which should be deleted. Maybe even have it so that any posts must be cleared through said mod before they are posted in the thread. I know this sounds extreme, but really it's the only way I think a thread of this type could be kept on track, and therefore become a true reference for those in search of an easy source of valuable info.