[Sarchi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Would it help if we created a seperate section on Head-Fi that dealt only with member's systems? It could be actual systems, or systems they're thinking about putting together, or even dream systems. But the focus on this sub forum would be to talk specifically about system synergy issues as opposed to individual components.

I think it would help. I'd also love to see a subforum for "recommended systems", i.e. amp and headphone combinations that work well together. That one could be a bit tricky to manage (and maintain) ongoing. A "newcomer" forum with a FAQ would also be excellent.

We need to remember that there is much more than one 'demographic' here. The range of people on the forum includes:
- newb who just wants a better earbud for his Ipod
- newb who's being "pulled in" to this as a hobby but knows almost nothing
- oldtimer who knows what he liked back in the day and now needs to replace that rotting K240
- young guy with no privacy who just wants to play some loud music without bothering people
- speaker audiophile who's curious about how good headphones can be
- someone who just came into some money and wants to spend it on cool toys

.....and many others.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarchi /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think it would help. I'd also love to see a subforum for "recommended systems", i.e. amp and headphone combinations that work well together. That one could be a bit tricky to manage (and maintain) ongoing. A "newcomer" forum with a FAQ would also be excellent.

I agree with these points, but think that a single "systems" sub forum, no matter what we might call it, could contemplate all of this. It wouldn't have to be limited to members' actual or proposed systems. It could also include these sorts of educational elements.

Problem is where do the FAQs (and answers to them) come from? There has been at least one attempt made to do this sort of thing in the past. I can't remember who did it or what ever became of the results, but it was a group of members who got together and tried to assimilate some of the ever growing information in a useful way that would guide new members.

Because the body of knowledge is ever growing (and because most of it is 'opinion' as opposed to genuine 'knowledge'), it becomes quite difficult to do these FAQs in any way except either: a) overly simplistic, or b) overly complex. Overly simplistic would be things like: "Do I need an amp?" and "What is the difference between soild state and tube amps?" Overly complex would be things like, "Which is better: K701 or HD650?" or "Do cables make a difference in sound?" (As he runs and hides!!!)

But if you're talking about a newcomer FAQ forum (as opposed to the static information you normally see in FAQ lists) then you might be on to something. We've thought about this as well, but the reason we're never added such a forum is that it may have a perceived "branding" effect that isn't exactly desirable. In other words, after the initial enthusiasm of the more experienced members starts to fade, the newbies will most likely be in there talking to themselves (blind leading the blind) or at least feeling as though they have to identify themselves as someone who has an empty head that needs to be filled up with knowledge and opinions from those who actually know something! Of course that's not the case at all, and we would prefer to avoid these sorts of perceptions.

As it stands now, most new members are quick to identify themselves as such if they're about to ask some questions that they think will come across as novice level (not that it's really necessary for them to identify themselves as newbies because their post count kind of gives that part away). So I hear what you're saying in terms of doing a better job at helping new members, but I think this still needs to come from the heart. Some people are net givers and some people are net takers in life. We're lucky here to have so many long-time members who are readily willing to help out new members, even if it means answering the same question for the 100th time.

Quote:

We need to remember that there is much more than one 'demographic' here. The range of people on the forum includes: - newb who just wants a better earbud for his Ipod - newb who's being "pulled in" to this as a hobby but knows almost nothing - oldtimer who knows what he liked back in the day and now needs to replace that rotting K240 - young guy with no privacy who just wants to play some loud music without bothering people - speaker audiophile who's curious about how good headphones can be - someone who just came into some money and wants to spend it on cool toys .....and many others.

Totally agree, and this is extremely easy to lose sight of because even though there are so many new members (and even visitors who have not signed up as members) who are lurking here and trying to get some simple questions answered or to put together their first headphones-based system, you don't really notice them since they're so quiet. Even the ones who do speak up will have low post counts so you're not really familiar with them.

The bulk of the interaction (in terms of actual posts) in the Head-Fi forums occurs between and among old members (people who have been members for a year or more and have several hundred posts or more). Yet, at the same time the bulk of the activity that occurs at Head-Fi (and Jude can give figures on this in terms of page clicks) comes from new members (who have registered) and visitors (who have not registered). The number of unique users who visit Head-Fi each day is really quite surprising, even staggering -- so if there is something we can do to help them to integrate such that the site becomes "sticky" for new arrivals, then all such ideas are very much worth worth considering. In other words, for some of us Head-Fi has become one of our primary online "homes" whereas for others it's a brand new discovery waiting to be explored. Making it more assessible is thus a critical success driver for the site itself.

 

[granodemostasa]

I would certainly contribute to such an attempt:
benchmark dac 1, silver>GSX>silver>hd650
VDA2>copper>IC3>GSX>Copper>HD650
VDA2>ZD>h650
VDA2>ZD>F1>K1000
VDA2>GSX>F1>k1000
Dac-1>GSX>F1>K1000
DV60>ZD>hd650
Dac-1>DM>HD650

 

[Faust2D]

There is a great section on Agon, members virtual systems. Something of this kind would be great to have on head-fi.

We can have member list their entire system with pics and components and find ways to improve it and fine tune it. I would love to see something like that.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust2D /img/forum/go_quote.gif All I have to say on this subject is that cost of equipment does not alsways reflects performance.

Not always, but I'd warrant that 95% of the time it does. I've never heard a $5K+ component that sounds anything other than heavenly, while I've heard TONS of $1K equipment that sounds horrible.

I don't understand the "you don't get what you pay for" crowd, and have to question whether they've ever heard any reference level equipment. Maybe they had a bad Bose experience and extrapolated their belief about pricey (to a hi-fi newbie) equipment.

 

[thrice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by slwiser /img/forum/go_quote.gif My take is that it is a good thing to learn from mistakes and buying the wrong equipment is what made the "experts" experts. This is a hobby after-all. Going from one piece of equipment to another until you find something very closed to what you feel is your sound is something to enjoy. Yes, we will have disappointments along the way. Most of us here are not passive or we would not be posting so we are engaged in this hobby with an effort to learn what is available and how it sounds. I have enjoyed my pursuit of getting to where I am now. Maybe not finished but maybe I am near achieving a sound that I can live with. I have separate setups and each has it's own level of performance and I am fairly satisfied with each for what they represent. I can't think of any other hobby where people expect to be perfect with the first attempt. This is simply unrealistic. If you purchased the "best setup" out of the blocks you would simple be ignorant of what your system represents. That being the culmination of a long set of someone else's experience in this hobby. You would not even be a hobbyist if you did that. You would not even need to be involved since what could you add to these discussions except possibly some arrogantly ignorant statement based on the real "experts" opinions.

I agree that trial and error play a big part of system building, but I think the problems and eventual disappointments of buying multiple amps/headphones is increased by the nature and prices associated with our hobby.

Most people looking to buy a speaker setup don't have the luxury of picking up multiple speakers and then auditioning them in home over a series of months, but we can do that with headphones. How many people on this forum own multiple headphones? How many own multiple high-end headphones? The prices involved with headphone audio encourage multiple systems. Even headphones amps are affordable enough to warrant multiple systems as well, both home and portable.

So a big part of this hobby is collecting. It's not something that get addressed frequently on the forum.

You can change your system on a dime around here...spend $1000 o headphones/amp/source and you can then sell that system off for a complete new one over and over again.

The other thing this bring up in instant gratification. It's so pervasive in our society that it effects us right down to the minute little decisions we make every day. I've been thinking about this too since it has a profound hold over me and my spending habits (perhaps it's my age compared to older Head-Fi members as well, I grew up in the 80's and 90's). People post a thread asking for advice about HD650....do we really need another thread like that...can't they search? Searching is an art that is fading from non-academic activities....at least it feels that way. There is vast amount of information here, you need only search for it. But people want their question answered now without much effort on their behalf.

Maybe people are not interested in putting forth a lot of effort/research for a $500 system? Which then begs the question: Are they even interested in High Fidelity playback? Or do they just want a "killer headphone rig?"

This also brings up another question: Have we become so impatient that we need to get something in our homes now so we can start listening regardless of what we're buying?

I've been thinking about our hobby a lot lately. It was first brought up with boomana's "Disturbing Trend" thread and then with the "As we see it" opening column in the most recent issue of Stereophile. They interviewed J Gordon Holt (the guy who first started the magazine) and he had some tough things to say about audiophiles and the industry today.

I think some of these issues are compounded by the nature of High-end headphone listening. It doesn't take much money to get a couple of headphones and amps into your house to totally muddle up your perspective.

I don't know...the dog just distracted me with tons of cuteness so I lost my train of thought. I'll finish this post with this: I've been reading Robert Harley's book, "The Complete Guide to High-End Audio" and I've found it very informative (especially since I'm getting ready to think about a serious speaker rig within the next 2 years once we buy a house).

While a don't agree with everything he says, it's been a great vehicle for internal dialog with myself about the nature of, problems with, and questions dealing with high-end audio. I'd recommend it but it's the only book of it's kind I've looked at so far. I intend to read more.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Would it help if we created a seperate section on Head-Fi that dealt only with member's systems?

That would be interesting. Perhaps this is something that could be linked to the blog function? I haven't set up a blog yet, but I'd like to, I need to speak to Jude about MoT issue with the blogs as well.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asr /img/forum/go_quote.gif No one can predict the future, and no one truly knows what they want until they start getting deeper and deeper into this "hobby." To ask for expectations, budgets, and system-building aspirations is more than the average newcomer can handle. If I had read this in 2004, I know for a fact this thread would turn me off immediately towards progressing further, and I probably would've stuck to a very simple system. It certainly would be nice if newcomers took into consideration the whole picture of headphones, amps, sources, and cables, but I foresee this thread doing two things: (1) turning off those who'd like to just get their feet wet, and (2) advancing motivation for those who are prepared to dive in head first.

Right! Which is why I was pondering what might be most helpful. If someone is just entering this forum, maybe even by accident after a google search on headphones, and was looking for something good to go to school with or travel with or disappear into at home after a hard day's work, to suggest they need to go out an buy a whole new rig to enjoy good sound would be equally irresponsible as suggesting to someone with an ipod to just get the K701s and not mention that an ipod wouldn't be the best match. Newcomers may not know what questions to even ask, especially if they just want a good headphone and then be done with it, but to suggest headphones that require better gear than the questioner has to sound good (e.g, needs an amp) isn't right either, and I see a lot of that. The other problem that I see, and noted in my opening post, is that people's expectations can be unrealistic. You're simply not going to get reference sound on a $300 budget.

slwiser noted that making mistakes is part of the learning process, and being able to cycle through gear (which has been an enjoyable part of this hobby for me) helps us to define what works and what doesn't to our own ears. I'm lucky living in South Florida with a bunch of great head-fiers who own impressive gear, cycle through it at scary rates, and let me listen to it all. My tastes have evolved since I first started out, I appreciate things differently now, and my needs have changed. I'm wanting to get into DIY now and am learning to solder this weekend (a whole new round of happy mistakes to make!).

I love Wayne's idea for a members' systems forum. I'm a lurker off and on in that section over at audiogon, and when I was looking for amps to drive my Abbys, spent mucho hours seeing what others had. It was just icing on the cake that the FirstWatt was great for my speakers as well as my K1000s. I also like how someone will post their setup then ask how it could be improved. I've learned a lot from reading those threads alone. It's a non-intimidating way to go about things. If you're interested in that sort of thing, it's there for you. If not, you don't have to look.

Similarly, I've gained the most useful information here, not in the gear forums, but in the meet impressions threads, where whole rigs are present, and a variety of views and comparisons are expressed. I don't know how many members actually follow those threads, but I check in pretty much daily, and always learn something, even if it has nothing to do with anything I'm personally interested in exploring.

On a side note: how the heck are you - talking about you, Wayne, or Bozebuttons for that matter, or Hirsch, and some others ever going to fit all your stuff in a virtual systems type format? You'd need a whole forum to yourselves and a year to simply type everything out! Like Thrice said, this hobby brings out the collector in many of us. I don't even know how I would begin, and I don't have 1/25 of what you guys do, but I mix and match between my gear so much, then get rid of some to buy more, I couldn't even settle on a system or two.

Anyway, I just wanted to note that I appreciate the thoughtfulness in these posts. At the end of the day, I hang out here, not so much because of the gear, but because the people are so amazing.

 

[slwiser]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Would it help if we created a seperate section on Head-Fi that dealt only with member's systems?

I consider this as having already been accomplished in the profiles section for those who want to place this information there. I check a lot of things out using it. I have done Google searches within them to find things; like how many micro-ZOTLs for in our profiles to see who may have them, etc.

 

[rhythmdevils]

i would really love to see a "member systems thread"

Thanks Boomana, for pushing this place forward!

I agree wholeheartedly with the posts regarding synergy. I think it is the #1 most important factor in getting that pefect sound (or closer to it anyways

). And YES, I have had experiences with cheap systems beating out multi-thousand dollar systems. And the reason was simple synergy. Ive commented on this before, but my HP3000 were a great example of this.

At the San Jose meet a couple years ago, I walked around with them, trying them with the plethora of incredible amps that were present. The top offerings from Ray, Singlepower, Headamp, etc. And by far, the best amp for them was my 300$ ppa! It was simply because the HP3000 needed a brighter, resolving amp, and this is what the ppa offered.

Now, this isnt to say that a speciallly tuned SDS wouldnt sound better. But as they were, the sound signature of the ppa (or whatever else was at play) made a bigger difference than the power and refinement (etc.) of the bigger amps.

If there was a member's systems section, situations like this could really bbe discussed, and brought to everyone's attention. We could do reviews of systems rather than seperate components, and recomend complete systems. Because like Boomana and others are saying, a great headphone, on its own, is nothing. We could even eventually have stickies with lists of different systems for different desired sound signatures, at different prices. Or stickies with specific systems, to which different member's reviews could be added.

 

[ph0rk]

One of the hazards of sifting through hundreds (or thousands) of impressions of varying lengths is that it can be difficult to know which posters are talking about something they have listened to for an extended period, which are talking about something they heard once somewhere, and which ones are just regurgitating. This makes most of the search results just noise - little different than audioreview.com or epinions.

There is no peer review - the only alternative is to spend weeks integrating oneself with the community to learn who may or may not be full of it. That doesn't make the information found here very useful to those not inclined to get that deep into the community. I challenge many of you to use the search function to find anything specific about a particular headphone without also relying on member "reputation".

The entire endeavor is ultimately futile though, as no amount of forum trawling will replace putting headphones on your head and listening to them. I've ended up spending a bit more than I originally intended, but my stable is now rounded out (dt770/hd650/k601) and well-fed (0404 usb and gLite). Disliked headphones are gone or on the way out (k701, DT990-250). I was aware of these results at the outset - I knew I'd be trying more headphones than I ended up with, and that isn't for everyone. Given my current time constraints that was far simpler than spending a couple days driving around and auditioning (in places not my home, at that).


A systems section may help, but will only go so far.