[H20Fidelity]

Personally, I do hear or recognize soundstage differences in DAPs.
 
For me, the DAP plays a major factor on soundstage width especially.
,
Like your IEM will have a set amount it can produce  say min/max and the variations in players are what sets the width level.
 
This is why I dislike a player with a narrow stage, say with 1Plus2 because its simply limiting the IEMs performance.
 
What are your thoughts on N5 soundstage? @PinkyPowers 

 

[cleg]

I don't know, mate. I think in this hobby we take the sentiment "everyone hears things differently" a little too far. Medically speaking, it must be the rare individual who walks into a grand opera house and hears it as a small closet.

It's more likely that many folk don't know what soundstage is, or how to judge it whilst listening to their equipment.

there is a HUGE, DRASTIC difference on sound perception when you listening real music, when you're listening to speakers and when you're listening on headphones

one of the main sources of information about sound source positioning in real life is delays between signal perception by left and right ear and signals for left and right ear interference. your right ear should hear sound from left channel, and vice-versa. this interference is absent in headphones (except of binaural records)

another important thing, it's a sound distortions, caused by mirroring from outer ear. this is present in big cans (but pretty non-natural), but absent in IEMs

so, in headphones your brain is lacking big amount of information, so it should "correct" it. there are tests, that shows difference in 3D sound perception by different people, that's why I'm saying that stage is relative for each listener.

I'm sorry, most of my psychoacoustic knowledge and sources are in russian, so may be I can't explain this in more details.

 

[cleg]

Personally, I do hear or recognize soundstage differences in DAPs.

For me, the DAP plays a major factor on soundstage width especially.

Sure you do. As well as me, and everyone else. I just wanted to say, that our perception can be different. Sometimes pretty drastically.

 

[H20Fidelity]

Sure you do. As well as me, and everyone else. I just wanted to say, that our perception can be different. Sometimes pretty drastically.

 
I understand what you're saying Cleg, the perception between any two persons will vary. 

 
Therefore doesn't really give an accurate point of reference for any two people.

 

[PinkyPowers]

there is a HUGE, DRASTIC difference on sound perception when you listening real music, when you're listening to speakers and when you're listening on headphones

one of the main sources of information about sound source positioning in real life is delays between signal perception by left and right ear and signals for left and right ear interference. your right ear should hear sound from left channel, and vice-versa. this interference is absent in headphones (except of binaural records)

another important thing, it's a sound distortions, caused by mirroring from outer ear. this is present in big cans (but pretty non-natural), but absent in IEMs

so, in headphones your brain is lacking big amount of information, so it should "correct" it. there are tests, that shows difference in 3D sound perception by different people, that's why I'm saying that stage is relative for each listener.

I'm sorry, most of my psychoacoustic knowledge and sources are in russian, so may be I can't explain this in more details.

That's very interesting. Thank you.

If everything you're saying is true, and if your conclusion is solid, then talking about soundstage when reviewing headphones, DACs and DAPs is utterly useless, for it cannot give a reliable point of reference for the reader when making their next purchasing decision.

I'm not sure I'm ready to accept that.

 

[H20Fidelity]

If the situation it could still be measurable at least to a ballpark with majority selection like anything on Head-fi. Say for example, I go back and read the entire N5 thread, each time I see someone mention soundstage width of Cayin N5 I then make a note. By the time I reach the end I'm going to have a fairly solid consensus from the majority of individual opinions.

 

[cleg]

That's very interesting. Thank you.

If everything you're saying is true, and if your conclusion is solid, then talking about soundstage when reviewing headphones, DACs and DAPs is utterly useless, for it cannot give a reliable point of reference for the reader when making their next purchasing decision.

I'm not sure I'm ready to accept that.

Again, just my opinion below.

Reviews aren't useless, they are just subjective. Which means, that your perception may be different. This is related not only to soundstage actually. For example, if I say "this player have lots of bass", this could be absolutely not true for you. When I'm speaking about soundstage, I'm speaking about my perception. There are good chance that you'll hear similar results, but it's not 100% guaranteed.

I've got some review authors, who's perception is similar to mine, and I'm reading their reviews with confidence that I'll hear approximately same. Also, there are some authors, which I know that I need to "apply a correction" to their opinion, and I'm reading their reviews taking that into account.

 

[PinkyPowers]

With bass and treble you can use more specific language to give an objective remark. You can say headphoneX has more bass than headphoneY. That's measurably true for everyone. But soundstage can seem bigger and smaller than headphoneY based on the ears?

It throws our entire world into chaos! Anarchy in the bleeding streets!

 

[Podster]

With bass and treble you can use more specific language to give an objective remark. You can say headphoneX has more bass than headphoneY. That's measurably true for everyone. But soundstage can seem bigger and smaller than headphoneY based on the ears?

It throws our entire world into chaos! Anarchy in the bleeding streets!

So true, the wider the head the wider the sound stage

 

[PinkyPowers]

It's downright scandalous!

 

[x RELIC x]

I agree with Cleg. The ears normally locate sound by timing differences between ears and the shape of our ears (front to back differences). This is mostly null and void with headphones so most of the time when I read about soundstage all I think is tonality. Quite often if the treble is forward many will say it has a large soundstage and more 'air'. This isn't always the case but it usually correlates to the sound signature of the gear being described. Most of what I hear as soundstage actually has more to do with the recording than the gear it's listened on.

With headphones and source gear I tend to focus on imaging, which is also a false reality with headphones, but at least imaging derived from the timing and decay and L/R balance can get the listener closer to reality. Binaural recordings are exceptional at this. So in the end it really is pshycoacoustics that are at play because it's just an interpretation by our brain of how they are supposed to hear things.

Remember, we don't actually 'hear' the air pressure. We 'hear' electrical impulses in our brain converted from air pressure by our ears and then the brain needs to deal with these impulses to construct a perception we call sound. Just like our brains actually don't see light. The visual cortex is in complete darkness and only interprets impulses from the optical nerve, but no light actually reaches our brain. I find it interesting that we take air pressure, record it as a different medium (magnetic tape, vinyl, digital, etc.) send it as a voltage through a wire and convert it back to air pressure using magnets in the headphone only to be converted back to impulses for our brain to interpret.

To bring it back to the N5, when your gear can delineate the start and stop of a note well and play with little to no audible timing distortion (the brain is exceedingly sensitive to timing errors) then it has an easier time to reconstruct the image of the performance, and therefore the soundstage and imaging in the recording. For its price the N5 is pretty good at this, though there is much better gear out there, but much more expensive as well.

 

[Podster]

I agree with Cleg. The ears normally locate sound by timing differences between ears and the shape of our ears (front to back differences). This is mostly null and void with headphones so most of the time when I read about soundstage all I think is tonality. Quite often if the treble is forward many will say it has a large soundstage and more 'air'. This isn't always the case but it usually correlates to the sound signature of the gear being described. Most of what I hear as soundstage actually has more to do with the recording than the gear it's listened on.

With headphones and source gear I tend to focus on imaging, which is also a false reality with headphones, but at least imaging derived from the timing and decay and L/R balance can get the listener closer to reality. Binaural recordings are exceptional at this. So in the end it really is pshycoacoustics that are at play because it's just an interpretation by our brain of how they are supposed to hear things.

Remember, we don't actually 'hear' the air pressure. We 'hear' electrical impulses in our brain converted from air pressure by our ears and then the brain needs to deal with these impulses to construct a perception we call sound. Just like our brains actually don't see light. The visual cortex is in complete darkness and only interprets impulses from the optical nerve, but no light actually reaches our brain. I find it interesting that we take air pressure, record it as a different medium (magnetic tape, vinyl, digital, etc.) send it as a voltage through a wire and convert it back to air pressure using magnets in the headphone only to be converted back to impulses for our brain to interpret.

To bring it back to the N5, when your gear can delineate the start and stop of a note well and play with little to no audible timing distortion (the brain is exceedingly sensitive to timing errors) then it has an easier time to reconstruct the image of the performance, and therefore the soundstage and imaging in the recording. For its price the N5 is pretty good at this, though there is much better gear out there, but much more expensive as well.

Excellent point but that sure is wrecking it for a lot of Havi B3 owners and by what I've read reviewers as well. Based on what you said I believe it is the accuracy and smoothness of the B3 that makes us believe it has this incredibly wide sound stage. I also believe because of our ear shapes and various other things around us we all hear any sound stage differently. I have one on my home rigs, I mean we don't measure distances and perform toe in and out for no reason then again maybe we do

I do agree recordings can create many different sound stages within the same system. Good stuff "X" and you to Cleg

 

[x RELIC x]

Excellent point but that sure is wrecking it for a lot of Havi B3 owners and by what I've read reviewers as well. Based on what you said I believe it is the accuracy and smoothness of the B3 that makes us believe it has this incredibly wide sound stage. I also believe because of our ear shapes and various other things around us we all hear any sound stage differently. I have one on my home rigs, I mean we don't measure distances and perform toe in and out for no reason then again maybe we do:rolleyes: I do agree recordings can create many different sound stages within the same system. Good stuff "X" and you to Cleg:wink_face:

I didn't say this was always the case with tonality vs soundstage, and of course I oversimplified the shape of the ear to avoid a longer post. The Havi may have some longer decay which could be interpreted as a larger soundstage by the brain. I don't know, I haven't heard them. There are basically two things being reproduced in headphones/IEMs, amplitude (frequency strength) and timing. From there we interpret what we are hearing.

 

[Jethrosang]

In conclusion, shall we continue to enjoy what we like?

 

[Andykong]

Something we have promised during Chinese New Year holiday, sorry that we are a bit late, but always better then never

The N5 DIY Theme toolkit is now available, for those who are interested in customize the UI of N5, you can check this out, the toolkit give you almost total control on the UI of the DAP.

http://en.cayin.cn/news_view.asp?id=804